Poll [Poll] Firmino - Holgate incident update

[Frogfish]

Humans learn to lie instinctively, and from a very young age, to protect themselves. In fact supposedly learning to lie at an early age is a sign of above average intelligence.

It would be no surprise if a youngster raised in a tough inner city environment reverted to a lie regarding something he surely has experience of.

That said there are a number of possibilities only one of which has been definitively ruled out and so we are never likely to know which of the other options is the actual truth unless Holgate stands up and acknowledges the least palatable. Otherwise there will always be an element of doubt.

 

[Lenny]

Seems to me that Holgate has an inferiority complex connected with race, This means that the first thought in his tiny brain when someone says something to him in an aggressive manner, but which he doesn't understand, is to play the race card. He should apologise unreservedly to Bobby.

 

[gene hughes]

I get the vibe, but feigning bad contact is surely a different mindset than claiming racist abuse surely?

Maybe he did plan a red. Maybe he planned to get firmino sent off by pretending to be headbutted if firmino got to him before the ref, and then had to quickly change tactic.

For me it's beyond the pale and I just can't accept in such a scenario, that THAT is what springs to mind.

If you believe that people are bad enough to deliberately use racist language to upset a young player and put him off his game, that they can use toxic racist epithets to achieve a desired footballing outcome... then surely you should also believe that people are bad enough to deliberately use a false accusation of racism to achieve a similar outcome.

 

[Fabio]

If you believe that people are bad enough to deliberately use racist language to upset a young player and put him off his game, that they can use toxic racist epithets to achieve a desired footballing outcome... then surely you should also believe that people are bad enough to deliberately use a false accusation of racism to achieve a similar outcome.

I don't think people would use racist language just to put someone off, rather they are racist and using language they would think is appropriate

The other way round and false accusations just throws me completely

 

[dantes]

I don't think people would use racist language just to put someone off, rather they are racist and using language they would think is appropriate

The other way round and false accusations just throws me completely

Well have you considered that this is exactly why it works in the first place? The only place you'd expect to come across a false accusation is precisely those situations in which you would not believe it to be false, sort like the anthropomorphic principle.

 

[dantes]

The way to judge people is never by using your emotional instinct, because the person you're judging has already taken that into account and is trying to use it against you for their own gain. You have to just look at the facts objectively, then it's very easy to come to a reliable conclusion that Holgate is a fucking scumbag. Otherwise your feelings will always betray you.

 

[Farkmaster]

The way to judge people is never by using your emotional instinct, because the person you're judging has already taken that into account and is trying to use it against you for their own gain. You have to just look at the facts objectively, then it's very easy to come to a reliable conclusion that Holgate is a fucking scumbag. Otherwise your feelings will always betray you.

I'm getting a "think of the smell, you haven't thought of the smell, you bitch" vibe.

 

[Fabio]

I do enjoy the fact were now going on an innate psychological/instinctive level now

Instinct is to protect yourself, I've now doubt about that

But instinct is self preservation, and rarely thought out emotions. It's instinct, nature init. Fight or flight etc etc.

bringing an emotional factor in like feelings over racial issues doesn't marry with instinct. It fits more with pre meditation than off the cuff. The speed within which he reacted to firmino shouting (remember, everyone is focusing on the slowed down video) doesn't give enough time for that. He screams almost immediately that something was said.

But once again, I'm trying to stay out

 

[Athens]

I don't think people would use racist language just to put someone off, rather they are racist and using language they would think is appropriate

The other way round and false accusations just throws me completely

When you were a kid, did you never make up a bull shit excuse in the heat of the moment to try and cover up why something was broken/someone was in tears?

My cousin was a master at it, he got out of all sorts of trouble doing it. It didn't work when he was hauled up in front of a judge, though.

 

[Fabio]

When you were a kid, did you never make up a bull shit excuse in the heat of the moment to try and cover up why something was broken/someone was in tears?

My cousin was a master at it, he got out of all sorts of trouble doing it. It didn't work when he was hauled up in front of a judge, though.

Yeah but it was shitty pathetic stuff. Not potentially ruining someone's career

 

[dantes]

I'm getting a "think of the smell, you haven't thought of the smell, you bitch" vibe.

If you have any ideas of using my own judgement technique against me, you'll get into that game of he knows I know that he knows, and against me, you'll lose.

 

[Bradley]

When you were a kid, did you never make up a bull shit excuse in the heat of the moment to try and cover up why something was broken/someone was in tears?

My cousin was a master at it, he got out of all sorts of trouble doing it. It didn't work when he was hauled up in front of a judge, though.

Scotty?

 

[Athens]

Scotty?

The one and only.

 

[Bradley]

Lolz. Yes, that jam he got himself into would have taken some fantastic OJ level bullshitery.

 

[gene hughes]

Your cousin is Scott Peterson?

 

[Athens]

Your cousin is Scott Peterson?

No.

I don't know who that is.

 

[dantes]

I do enjoy the fact were now going on an innate psychological/instinctive level now

Instinct is to protect yourself, I've now doubt about that

But instinct is self preservation, and rarely thought out emotions. It's instinct, nature init. Fight or flight etc etc.

bringing an emotional factor in like feelings over racial issues doesn't marry with instinct. It fits more with pre meditation than off the cuff. The speed within which he reacted to firmino shouting (remember, everyone is focusing on the slowed down video) doesn't give enough time for that. He screams almost immediately that something was said.

But once again, I'm trying to stay out

It doesn't take that long to think jump to a false accusation. After he did so, his immediate reaction is to pull the referee around and make angry gestures at the referee - that's what a liar does they direct their lie to the place that will allow them to gain from it. He never reacted to Firmino, because it is much harder to lie directly to the face of someone who knows you're lying. Your faith in people is admirable, but foolish.

 

[Fabio]

Well, that's the fun of knowing someone's true intentions

 

[dantes]

Well, that's the fun of knowing someone's true intentions

Reasons to suppose he misheard: (1) time was short, (2) emotional faith

Reasons to suppose he lied: (1) it was never said, (2) the actual words are completely different to what he says he heard (3) nobody else misheard, (4) he never tried to deck firmino (5) he instantly went crying to the ref, (6) told the ref 'that's what I thought I heard' after being put in his place, (7) very conveniently avoided the red card, (8) never apologised after the evidence showed he was wrong, (9) been high profile cases in football which can be used as a guideline example of how to play the card, (10) plays for everton, (11) was the finding of the FA who are always wrong about everything


You don't have to know his intentions beyond any doubt, just balance those probabilities.

 

[Fabio]

A lot of the second part is supposed by you

But as I say, what's done is done and it was in our favour.

Consensus isn't necessary here.

 

[dantes]

I don't see it as in our favour because the FA have taken sides and insinuated that he is racist. Imagine now we're challenging the scum for the title next season, they know better than anyone how to play that card against us, so if they play it against firmino for the second time, you can see what's going to happen, it's a season ending ban and there'll be no other way about it.

 

[juniormember]

I don't see it as in our favour because the FA have taken sides and insinuated that he is racist. Imagine now we're challenging the scum for the title next season, they know better than anyone how to play that card against us, so if they play it against firmino for the second time, you can see what's going to happen, it's a season ending ban and there'll be no other way about it.

LFC has millions. They should employ a load of cameramen with gigantic lenses and get all conversations by players filmed. Also use lazer mics to hear what’s happening.

 

[jason]

And the FA would still come up with the same contorted conclusions after seven weeks.They've had it in for us for decades, fist pump.

The entire push thing was pre-planned Imv. Even at normal speed a completely un-provoked push.

 

[Rosco]

In fairness I don't think the FA said Firmino was innocent. More like we don't have the evidence to prove him guilty. On the other hand they went out of their way to emphasise that Holdgate was genuire in his assertion.

Has everyone forgotten how to read between the lines ?

The FA have to be seen to take an allegation like this seriously even if it's obviously bollocks.

They can't punish Holgate for making the allegation - think if the outcry that would lead to.

They've investigated every single piece of evidence and not one bit of it supports Holgate's version.

They've rubbished the allegation in the nicest possible way.

 

[Rosco]

Ferdinand - calls Ashley Cole a "Choc-Ice" and gets no ban, but a £45k fine. Then goes on to ridicule the FA and say he didn't regret his racist comment, no action taken.

Terry - Makes racist comment to Anton Ferdinand stating action he took on the pitch was because Ferdinand is "black". £220k fine and a four match ban

Luis Suarez - Calls Patrice Evra a "Negrito" multiple times during a game, receives a £40k fine and an eight match ban.

Firmino - is accused of racism, found not guilty and is then subject to a fairly damning closing statement from the FA.

The consistent, non-biased FA. Those fines and bans make no sense, nor resemble anything consistent.

How could they be consistent to you when you don't even know what Suarez admitted to saying ?

 

[mark1975]

Explain to me the consistency of those fines, or how Ferdinand got away with ridiculing both his punishment and the FA.

Black man makes a racist comment towards another black man = no ban. Don't tell me they're consistent by saying I don't know what's gone on. You're quick to say that Suarez admitted it and that's why he was punished. So did Ferdinand!

 

[Rosco]

Explain to me the consistency of those fines, or how Ferdinand got away with ridiculing both his punishment and the FA.

Black man makes a racist comment towards another black man = no ban. Don't tell me they're consistent by saying I don't know what's gone on. You're quick to say that Suarez admitted it and that's why he was punished. So did Ferdinand!

I'm not saying there's consistency. I'm just amazed that you still haven't bothered to find out what was actually said by Suarez rather than what we briefed the media with.

 

[mark1975]

Says who? The Suarez incident is long gone, I read the FA statement and the papers that were doing the rounds. I'm not sure what you mean by what we briefed the press with, I don't recall us briefing the press with much, other than trying to go someway to protecting our player while he was yet to be charged, as any club would. I doubt there was much transparency from the FA, given how the case was put to them, how Fergie acted on the day and the subsequent report. I also dont doubt that Suarez made racist jibes.

My point in this thread hasn't questioned that at all. Like I say, you can't blame people for being confused by the inconsistencies, and no that FA statement isn't "rubbishing the allegation in the nicest possible way", for Holgate yes, but for Firmino? It insinuates there was an issue they lacked evidence to prove. Which is not something any reputable governing body should be doing.

 

[Fabio]

Says who? The Suarez incident is long gone, I read the FA statement and the papers that were doing the rounds. I'm not sure what you mean by what we briefed the press with, I don't recall us briefing the press with much, other than trying to go someway to protecting our player while he was yet to be charged, as any club would. I doubt there was much transparency from the FA, given how the case was put to them, how Fergie acted on the day and the subsequent report. I also dont doubt that Suarez made racist jibes.

My point in this thread hasn't questioned that at all. Like I say, you can't blame people for being confused by the inconsistencies, and no that FA statement isn't "rubbishing the allegation in the nicest possible way", for Holgate yes, but for Firmino? It insinuates there was an issue they lacked evidence to prove. Which is not something any reputable governing body should be doing.

Ferdinand should have been punished

Terry's was roughly about right

If the FA believe evra (which they did), effectively Suarez called him blackie repeatedly and said he kicked him for that reason.

That comfortably deserves more than terry

 

[Fabio]

And I still don't think the fa statement over firmino is that damning