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PL Asia Troph

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doctor_mac said:
A cursory look at a heat map of movement between a traditional (and obviously very good) number nine and Firmino demonstrates he is clearly is tasked to do a very different job, to come much deeper and knit attacks from much further from the opposition penalty area. It isn't THAT difficult to understand.

heat-map-vs-west-ham-feb.png


Heat map Harry Kane v West Ham



Firmino-v-MC_3507575b.jpg

Bobby F against City ^^^^ and Against Hull below

roberto-firmino-heat-map-liverpool_3805378.jpg
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Id take kane and his 20+ plus goals every season over firmino and his team 10 goals but better work rate in a heartbeat.
 
Glen C said:
Id take kane and his 20+ plus goals every season over firmino and his team 10 goals but better work rate in a heartbeat.
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Would you take it if it meant that Mane, Coutinho and Lallana all scored 5 fewer goals each across the season?
 
Have you Firmino detractors taken into consideration the games he played on the wing due to the absence of Coutinho and Mane.
 
Kuyt vs Firmino*

1st season:
Kuyt 12 goals, 1 assist (all stats EPL only)
Firmino, 10 goals, 8 assists

2nd season:
Kuyt 3 goals, 8 assists
Firmino 11 goals, 12 assists

3rd season:
Kuyt 12 goals, 9 assists
Firmino ?

4th season:
Kuyt 9 goals, 4 assists
Firmino ?

5th season:
Kuyt 13 goals, 8 assists
Firmino ?

6th season:
Kuyt 2 goals, 2 assists (yes, he played 34 EPL games in that last season at LFC)
Firmino ?

It's really inexplicable how Brendan can "love" Kuyt (did he actually at the time, BTW, anybody remember?) and hate Firmino given the similarities between their game. I think Firmino has the talent to achieve more, but even if he stays at exactly the same level as now, he will have no trouble matching Kuyt statistically, as you can see from the comparison above.

*To be completely fair, one argument in Kuyt's favor is that he played in a much more defensive team under Rafa and in general football was more low-scoring back then. It should not account for that much statistical difference, but maybe Kuyt's tally would need to be increased by a few % points for fairer comparison to the current stats. Also Kuyt was undoubtedly a better defender; he even played wing-back at times for club and country, which I can't imagine Firmino doing. So all of this is not to denigrate Dirk in any way, but just to point out what should be an undisputed fact that at this juncture Firmino is well ahead of Kuyt in terms of attacking stats (21 EPL goals and 20 assists to Kuyt's 15 goals and 9 assists).
 
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I agree with the sentiment, rurik, but I have to correct you in saying Kuyt scored 12 in his first season.
 
Glen C said:
Id take kane and his 20+ plus goals every season over firmino and his team 10 goals but better work rate in a heartbeat.
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Sure, judging by the market valuations a player with Kane's qualities is more valuable/rare. That doesn't mean Firmino isn't a good player or an integral part of the team. One more thing to consider is that a "pure finisher" type striker loses most of his value the minute he stops scoring – this hasn't happened to Kane yet (he had a few slumps, but came out of them every time), but other players of this type, like Mario Gomez, Huntelaar, post-LFC Torres have been a burden on their teams, a complete waste of space once the confidence to finish chances was gone.
 
Suppose it doesn't matter, actually, you've just swapped the first and second seasons around.
 
rurikbird said:
Sure, judging by the market valuations a player with Kane's qualities is more valuable/rare. That doesn't mean Firmino isn't a good player or an integral part of the team. One more thing to consider is that a "pure finisher" type striker loses most of his value the minute he stops scoring – this hasn't happened to Kane yet (he had a few slumps, but came out of them every time), but other players of this type, like Mario Gomez, Huntelaar, post-LFC Torres have been a burden on their teams, a complete waste of space once the confidence to finish chances was gone.
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I get where you're coming from and I would be a bit more flexible if he wasn't our main striker. But he is and for all his work rate as a striker you need to deliver goals as that's what you're measured on at the end of the day, especially a number 9. Kuyt had amazing work rate but didn't score enough so he got moved out wide. This is a big season for firmino. 11 goals as our main striker isn't good enough.
 
Glen C said:
I get where you're coming from and I would be a bit more flexible if he wasn't our main striker. But he is and for all his work rate as a striker you need to deliver goals as that's what you're measured on at the end of the day, especially a number 9. Kuyt had amazing work rate but didn't score enough so he got moved out wide. This is a big season for firmino. 11 goals as our main striker isn't good enough.
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I have a bit on an issue with Firmino being given a #9 shirt, because he is simply not a #9. I think Klopp described him as 9.5 and I think that's about right – he is a NOT the team's main striker, he's not Harry Kane or Lukaku. His role is closer to that of Alli or Barkley, if you want to compare with Spurs or Everton.
 
So we won two out of two... and against the type of opposition we struggled to break down last season. How about we focus on Firmino's goal return?
 
rurikbird said:
I have a bit on an issue with Firmino being given a #9 shirt, because he is simply not a #9. I think Klopp described him as 9.5 and I think that's about right – he is a NOT the team's main striker, he's not Harry Kane or Lukaku. His role is closer to that of Alli or Barkley, if you want to compare with Spurs or Everton.
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The days when no.9 invariably denoted the team's main striker are long gone though. Heck, we even gave that shirt to that pr!ck Diouf once [shudders]. In fact I wonder whether Klopp deliberately gave Firmino the shirt to underline the point that this is the closest to a traditional no.9 that he actually wants to get.
 
Judge Jules said:
The days when no.9 invariably denoted the team's main striker are long gone though. Heck, we even gave that shirt to that pr!ck Diouf once [shudders]. In fact I wonder whether Klopp deliberately gave Firmino the shirt to underline the point that this is the closest to a traditional no.9 that he actually wants to get.
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Really?

I would say the no9 is still seen as the pivotal striker in most clubs.
 
Really?

It seems only Utd and Spurs would favour a classic nr 9.

Arsenal swapped to Sanchez, Guardiola dropped Aguero when he signed Jesus, Costa was an AM/winger, Benzema does loads of yardwork for Real which creates space for Ronaldo, Cavani for PSG, Lewa for Bayern, Suarez isnt a traditional nr 9 and Aubameyang is a winger converted to a striker.

I'd say JJ is spot on.
 
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