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Owen

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Re: Cunt

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=34487.msg900067#msg900067 date=1246695174]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=34487.msg900038#msg900038 date=1246686259]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=34487.msg900015#msg900015 date=1246674162]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=34487.msg899991#msg899991 date=1246665596]
If this wasn't so sad it would be fucking hilarious, as said previously I can't really blame him, but he has well and truly burned his bridges now, I never really thought it would happen, and then to say he did it without a thought, at least he could have said he had to wrestle long and hard with his feelings, even if he didn't mean it :-X

regards
[/quote]

If he'd said that, no one would believe it anyway.

I admire the way you've stuck up for him, and your claims that he is the victim in all this do have some merit; even if I think he should take some of the responsibility.

Now I just hope he breaks something and is put out of the game forever.

Sorry if that makes me callous.

[/quote]

What happened yesterday does not alter my view on the circumstances of his leaving . At the risk of repeating myself, I don't believe he ran down his contract with the sole intention of leaving, he saw changes ahead and wanted to keep his options open.
Rafa was not keen on him and made luke warm attempts to keep him, as he wanted Morientes who was available at that window in time from Madrid. Yes, he went over to visit the Liverpool players at the Euro's and saw Cunt too, and for the politics made it into a mission to get him to stay.



[/quote]


Where do you get this from Vladders? Because it sounds suspiciously like made-up nonsense- and you've been repeating this story for years, without a shred of anything more than conjecture to support your argument. Rafa would have been crazy to have wanted rid of a proven top class striker after arriving at Anfield. He even wanted to keep Heskey, God forgive him. All this 'luke warm' business is bollocks. He wanted Owen to stay, but he also wanted the situation resolved, one way or t'other. You have decided that because he wanted Morientes he didn't want Owen, which is not entirely convincing as an argument.

As to the situation when he went to Newcastle, Rafa had clearly given the deal the thumbs up, considering Parry was negotiating the deal. It was Parry, ultimately, who decided that we couldn't meet Owen's demands, with Owen apparently phoning him, and asking him to offer a deal as good as that offered by Newcastle. Remember, it was Parry, not Rafa, who made the call on such matters. Parry wasn't asking Rafa "is he worth so much a week" or whatever. But again, somehow, you have managed to construe all this as Rafa's dislike of poor Mickey. I don't have any truck with this argument at all.
[/quote]
My theory carries just as much weight as everyone else's, it is all speculation. It's just that the version I (and some others) subscribe to does not fit what people wanted to think at the time.

Oh and cut out the nonsense and bollocks stuff

regards
 
Re: Cunt

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=34487.msg900097#msg900097 date=1246699501]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=34487.msg900067#msg900067 date=1246695174]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=34487.msg900038#msg900038 date=1246686259]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=34487.msg900015#msg900015 date=1246674162]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=34487.msg899991#msg899991 date=1246665596]
If this wasn't so sad it would be fucking hilarious, as said previously I can't really blame him, but he has well and truly burned his bridges now, I never really thought it would happen, and then to say he did it without a thought, at least he could have said he had to wrestle long and hard with his feelings, even if he didn't mean it :-X

regards
[/quote]

If he'd said that, no one would believe it anyway.

I admire the way you've stuck up for him, and your claims that he is the victim in all this do have some merit; even if I think he should take some of the responsibility.

Now I just hope he breaks something and is put out of the game forever.

Sorry if that makes me callous.

[/quote]

What happened yesterday does not alter my view on the circumstances of his leaving . At the risk of repeating myself, I don't believe he ran down his contract with the sole intention of leaving, he saw changes ahead and wanted to keep his options open.
Rafa was not keen on him and made luke warm attempts to keep him, as he wanted Morientes who was available at that window in time from Madrid. Yes, he went over to visit the Liverpool players at the Euro's and saw Cunt too, and for the politics made it into a mission to get him to stay.



[/quote]


Where do you get this from Vladders? Because it sounds suspiciously like made-up nonsense- and you've been repeating this story for years, without a shred of anything more than conjecture to support your argument. Rafa would have been crazy to have wanted rid of a proven top class striker after arriving at Anfield. He even wanted to keep Heskey, God forgive him. All this 'luke warm' business is bollocks. He wanted Owen to stay, but he also wanted the situation resolved, one way or t'other. You have decided that because he wanted Morientes he didn't want Owen, which is not entirely convincing as an argument.

As to the situation when he went to Newcastle, Rafa had clearly given the deal the thumbs up, considering Parry was negotiating the deal. It was Parry, ultimately, who decided that we couldn't meet Owen's demands, with Owen apparently phoning him, and asking him to offer a deal as good as that offered by Newcastle. Remember, it was Parry, not Rafa, who made the call on such matters. Parry wasn't asking Rafa "is he worth so much a week" or whatever. But again, somehow, you have managed to construe all this as Rafa's dislike of poor Mickey. I don't have any truck with this argument at all.
[/quote]
My theory carries just as much weight as everyone else's, it is all speculation. It's just that the version I (and some others) subscribe to does not fit what people wanted to think at the time.

Oh and cut out the nonsense and bollocks stuff

regards


[/quote]

No offence intended Vlad, but the I don't think it carries any weight, and is contrary to the available facts- 1. Rafa asked Owen to stay 2. We made Owen an offer when he was signed by Newcastle. These, as Rafa would say, are facts.
 
Daft as it sounds I was actually quite offended.
I am not disputing 2 at all, but I don't think it was Rafa that was making the pace in the moth-balled sports pavilion, but Parry, and any offer was subject to Real accepting it anyway, had Newcastle not jumped in with stupid money he would have been back with us, something I am still unsure would have been a good idea anyway.

So Rafa tells us he wanted Owen to stay , well that must be true then as Rafa is not in the least Machiavellian in his dealings, is he? Like fuck he isn't. I wouldn't believe a single thing Rafa told me when it comes to football dealings.

regards
 
Not really, the Owen saga has been an ongoing sore point for years.

It's just now reached its worst level.
 
I think the truth is probably somewhere in between (Doc and Vlad).

Owen fucked us around for long enough, it was clear he was holding out for his own best interests and Rafa was the only one with the balls to take the situation by the scruff.

That said, Rafa DOES have his system and ideals, and as much as he may have preferred Owen to stay on, considering we were all ready short squad wise, it's also fair to say that Owen isn't really the kind of striker that Rafa would have in there week in, week out. So longterm it's fair to surmise that Rafa would have deemed Owen as saleable.

And yeah, I know he went after him again, which brings me to my next point. The story at the time was that Rafa himself met with Owen and that he didn't feel Owen wanted it enough, Owen held out for whatever reasons (money or whatever) and then panicked into the Newcastle move when we weren't forthcoming with whatever terms/conditions he was asking for.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34487.msg900088#msg900088 date=1246698149]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=34487.msg900069#msg900069 date=1246695657]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34487.msg900058#msg900058 date=1246694042]
[quote author=Modokay link=topic=34487.msg900057#msg900057 date=1246693671]
Wow this isn't a fuckin Hollywood movie, mate. Gerrard would obviously want Cunt to play for us. But I mean friendship transcends all that. They're probably texting each other and having a laugh over how much stick Cunt is going to get when he returns to Anfield.

The only players in our squad who really lives and breathes Liverpool is Carragher. He shows it in ever game he plays, in interviews especially the one when he's asked about moving, the arbeloa thing and most importantly that he quit England.

[/quote]In his book Carragher clearly states that if he still feels he can do it and we dont, he will play elsewhere. If his choices were Manchester United or Hull, he would sign for United. I have absolutely no doubt about it.
The only player i believe in recent times who wouldnt entertain it and WOULD go to Hull is Robbie Fowler.
The difference being Carragher, Gerrard etc would never say 'didnt give it a second thought' basically because they love the club.
[/quote]

That has to be the worst post you've ever made. There is no way on earth that Carra or Gerrard would play for Man United, even if the alternative was to be shot in the head.

[/quote]Fair enough. You're wrong. But fair enough.
[/quote]

You really think Gerrard and Carra would give up their status as Liverpool legends just for a final couple of seasons of challenging for trophies? Do you think Scholes or Gary Neville would sign for Liverpool in similar circumstances? No way.

If Carra or Gerrard ever played for United, the supporters who adulate them now would despise them, and they and their families would be targeted for death threats etc. Even taking their love of the club out of the equation, it would be an irrational and dangerous decision to make. It would never happen.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=34487.msg900102#msg900102 date=1246700276]
Daft as it sounds I was actually quite offended.
I am not disputing 2 at all, but I don't think it was Rafa that was making the pace in the moth-balled sports pavilion, but Parry, and any offer was subject to Real accepting it anyway, had Newcastle not jumped in with stupid money he would have been back with us, something I am still unsure would have been a good idea anyway.

So Rafa tells us he wanted Owen to stay , well that must be true then as Rafa is not in the least Machiavellian in his dealings, is he? Like fuck he isn't. I wouldn't believe a single thing Rafa told me when it comes to football dealings.

regards
[/quote]

It makes no sense for Rafa to try and sell a player (who will not bring in his true value because he has run his contract down), and as I say, it is a matter of record that he went to edit: the Euros, partly in an attempt to get Owen to stay.

Rafa is Machiavellian, but to push Owen out makes no sense. Getting him to sign a new contract and selling him for full value a year on, that's a proper Machiavellian move, but your argument flies in the face of rationality, and simply betrays your dislike of Benitez more than anything else.

I also wonder about you giving Parry full credit for trying to resign Owen. Aren't you in the same lobby who thinks it is ludicrous that Keane was signed by Parry without Rafa's consent? Your scenario would be equally ludicrous. Parry had to be negotiating under instruction from Rafa.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=34487.msg900106#msg900106 date=1246700797]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34487.msg900088#msg900088 date=1246698149]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=34487.msg900069#msg900069 date=1246695657]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=34487.msg900058#msg900058 date=1246694042]
[quote author=Modokay link=topic=34487.msg900057#msg900057 date=1246693671]
Wow this isn't a fuckin Hollywood movie, mate. Gerrard would obviously want Cunt to play for us. But I mean friendship transcends all that. They're probably texting each other and having a laugh over how much stick Cunt is going to get when he returns to Anfield.

The only players in our squad who really lives and breathes Liverpool is Carragher. He shows it in ever game he plays, in interviews especially the one when he's asked about moving, the arbeloa thing and most importantly that he quit England.

[/quote]In his book Carragher clearly states that if he still feels he can do it and we dont, he will play elsewhere. If his choices were Manchester United or Hull, he would sign for United. I have absolutely no doubt about it.
The only player i believe in recent times who wouldnt entertain it and WOULD go to Hull is Robbie Fowler.
The difference being Carragher, Gerrard etc would never say 'didnt give it a second thought' basically because they love the club.
[/quote]

That has to be the worst post you've ever made. There is no way on earth that Carra or Gerrard would play for Man United, even if the alternative was to be shot in the head.

[/quote]Fair enough. You're wrong. But fair enough.
[/quote]

You really think Gerrard and Carra would give up their status as Liverpool legends just for a final couple of seasons of challenging for trophies? Do you think Scholes or Gary Neville would sign for Liverpool in similar circumstances? No way.

If Carra or Gerrard ever played for United, the supporters who adulate them now would despise them, and they and their families would be targeted for death threats etc. Even taking their love of the club out of the equation, it would be an irrational and dangerous decision to make. It would never happen.

[/quote]Yes i do. Im sure of it.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=34487.msg900109#msg900109 date=1246700990]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=34487.msg900102#msg900102 date=1246700276]
Daft as it sounds I was actually quite offended.
I am not disputing 2 at all, but I don't think it was Rafa that was making the pace in the moth-balled sports pavilion, but Parry, and any offer was subject to Real accepting it anyway, had Newcastle not jumped in with stupid money he would have been back with us, something I am still unsure would have been a good idea anyway.

So Rafa tells us he wanted Owen to stay , well that must be true then as Rafa is not in the least Machiavellian in his dealings, is he? Like fuck he isn't. I wouldn't believe a single thing Rafa told me when it comes to football dealings.

regards
[/quote]

It makes no sense for Rafa to try and sell a player (who will not bring in his true value because he has run his contract down), and as I say, it is a matter of record that he went to Spain, partly in an attempt to get Owen to stay.

Rafa is Machiavellian, but to push Owen out makes no sense. Getting him to sign a new contract and selling him for full value a year on, that's a proper Machiavellian move, but your argument flies in the face of rationality, and simply betrays your dislike of Benitez more than anything else.

I also wonder about you giving Parry full credit for trying to resign Owen. Aren't you in the same lobby who thinks it is ludicrous that Keane was signed by Parry without Rafa's consent? Your scenario would be equally ludicrous. Parry had to be negotiating under instruction from Rafa.
[/quote]But Parry did sign Keane.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34487.msg900105#msg900105 date=1246700763]
I think the truth is probably somewhere in between (Doc and Vlad).

Owen fucked us around for long enough, it was clear he was holding out for his own best interests and Rafa was the only one with the balls to take the situation by the scruff.

That said, Rafa DOES have his system and ideals, and as much as he may have preferred Owen to stay on, considering we were all ready short squad wise, it's also fair to say that Owen isn't really the kind of striker that Rafa would have in there week in, week out. So longterm it's fair to surmise that Rafa would have deemed Owen as saleable.

And yeah, I know he went after him again, which brings me to my next point. The story at the time was that Rafa himself met with Owen and that he didn't feel Owen wanted it enough, Owen held out for whatever reasons (money or whatever) and then panicked into the Newcastle move when we weren't forthcoming with whatever terms/conditions he was asking for.
[/quote]

Actually i think Cunt would have flourished under Benitez. Similar to Mista at Valencia whereby a sharp hard-working striker who would have linked well with 1-touch passing with the midfield.
 
[quote author=DCH link=topic=34487.msg900115#msg900115 date=1246701707]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34487.msg900105#msg900105 date=1246700763]
I think the truth is probably somewhere in between (Doc and Vlad).

Owen fucked us around for long enough, it was clear he was holding out for his own best interests and Rafa was the only one with the balls to take the situation by the scruff.

That said, Rafa DOES have his system and ideals, and as much as he may have preferred Owen to stay on, considering we were all ready short squad wise, it's also fair to say that Owen isn't really the kind of striker that Rafa would have in there week in, week out. So longterm it's fair to surmise that Rafa would have deemed Owen as saleable.

And yeah, I know he went after him again, which brings me to my next point. The story at the time was that Rafa himself met with Owen and that he didn't feel Owen wanted it enough, Owen held out for whatever reasons (money or whatever) and then panicked into the Newcastle move when we weren't forthcoming with whatever terms/conditions he was asking for.
[/quote]

Actually i think Cunt would have flourished under Benitez. Similar to Mista at Valencia whereby a sharp hard-working striker who would have linked well with 1-touch passing with the midfield.
[/quote]

Owen is/was a great striker, but he was never in the Mista mould, dropping off, working hard and linking with the midfield, he generally thrived on being on the shoulder of the last defender, feeding off through balls.

Compare that to Torres who's strength and hold up play, ability to work the channels and general alround work ethic is EXACTLY what Rafa has been striving for in a striker.
 
One remarkable thing is that, whatever anyone used to think about Owen, few would have questioned his abilities as a diplomat. He was always very careful to say the right things. So the incredibly tactless way he's handled his move to the mancs really takes the breath away. He knows full well how offensive it is, yet he clearly could not give a damn. That's so out of character. He could well start a riot if he plays at Anfield next season.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34487.msg900117#msg900117 date=1246701861]
[quote author=DCH link=topic=34487.msg900115#msg900115 date=1246701707]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34487.msg900105#msg900105 date=1246700763]
I think the truth is probably somewhere in between (Doc and Vlad).

Owen fucked us around for long enough, it was clear he was holding out for his own best interests and Rafa was the only one with the balls to take the situation by the scruff.

That said, Rafa DOES have his system and ideals, and as much as he may have preferred Owen to stay on, considering we were all ready short squad wise, it's also fair to say that Owen isn't really the kind of striker that Rafa would have in there week in, week out. So longterm it's fair to surmise that Rafa would have deemed Owen as saleable.

And yeah, I know he went after him again, which brings me to my next point. The story at the time was that Rafa himself met with Owen and that he didn't feel Owen wanted it enough, Owen held out for whatever reasons (money or whatever) and then panicked into the Newcastle move when we weren't forthcoming with whatever terms/conditions he was asking for.
[/quote]

Actually i think Cunt would have flourished under Benitez. Similar to Mista at Valencia whereby a sharp hard-working striker who would have linked well with 1-touch passing with the midfield.
[/quote]

Owen is/was a great striker, but he was never in the Mista mould, dropping off, working hard and linking with the midfield, he generally thrived on being on the shoulder of the last defender, feeding off through balls.

Compare that to Torres who's strength and hold up play, ability to work the channels and general alround work ethic is EXACTLY what Rafa has been striving for in a striker.
[/quote]

I seem to remember the style Owen played against teams that defended deep against us. He used to drop off deep to link up play with the midfield.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34487.msg900105#msg900105 date=1246700763]
I think the truth is probably somewhere in between (Doc and Vlad).

Owen fucked us around for long enough, it was clear he was holding out for his own best interests and Rafa was the only one with the balls to take the situation by the scruff.

That said, Rafa DOES have his system and ideals, and as much as he may have preferred Owen to stay on, considering we were all ready short squad wise, it's also fair to say that Owen isn't really the kind of striker that Rafa would have in there week in, week out. So longterm it's fair to surmise that Rafa would have deemed Owen as saleable.

And yeah, I know he went after him again, which brings me to my next point. The story at the time was that Rafa himself met with Owen and that he didn't feel Owen wanted it enough, Owen held out for whatever reasons (money or whatever) and then panicked into the Newcastle move when we weren't forthcoming with whatever terms/conditions he was asking for.
[/quote]

I don't think your argument lies somewhere between Vlad and I, because this is exactly how I see it- other than it was Parry who was negotiating with Owen.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=34487.msg900124#msg900124 date=1246702709]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34487.msg900105#msg900105 date=1246700763]
I think the truth is probably somewhere in between (Doc and Vlad).

Owen fucked us around for long enough, it was clear he was holding out for his own best interests and Rafa was the only one with the balls to take the situation by the scruff.

That said, Rafa DOES have his system and ideals, and as much as he may have preferred Owen to stay on, considering we were all ready short squad wise, it's also fair to say that Owen isn't really the kind of striker that Rafa would have in there week in, week out. So longterm it's fair to surmise that Rafa would have deemed Owen as saleable.

And yeah, I know he went after him again, which brings me to my next point. The story at the time was that Rafa himself met with Owen and that he didn't feel Owen wanted it enough, Owen held out for whatever reasons (money or whatever) and then panicked into the Newcastle move when we weren't forthcoming with whatever terms/conditions he was asking for.
[/quote]

I don't think your argument lies somewhere between Vlad and I, because this is exactly how I see it- other than it was Parry who was negotiating with Owen.
[/quote]

We'll never really know will we? It was suggested at the time of Owen's sale that Rafa didn't really fancy him much anyway because of his preferred system. And regards the attempt to sign him back, I'm only quoting what I heard reported at the time, that Rafa personally met with Owen (Parry may well have been there).

That might be how you see it, but like I said, we're not really gonna know unless it comes out first hand sometime in the future from either party. Taking everything into consideration, I think it's feasible that Rafa wasn't exactly devastated by the loss of Owen.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=34487.msg900109#msg900109 date=1246700990]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=34487.msg900102#msg900102 date=1246700276]
Daft as it sounds I was actually quite offended.
I am not disputing 2 at all, but I don't think it was Rafa that was making the pace in the moth-balled sports pavilion, but Parry, and any offer was subject to Real accepting it anyway, had Newcastle not jumped in with stupid money he would have been back with us, something I am still unsure would have been a good idea anyway.

So Rafa tells us he wanted Owen to stay , well that must be true then as Rafa is not in the least Machiavellian in his dealings, is he? Like fuck he isn't. I wouldn't believe a single thing Rafa told me when it comes to football dealings.

regards
[/quote]

It makes no sense for Rafa to try and sell a player (who will not bring in his true value because he has run his contract down), and as I say, it is a matter of record that he went to edit: the Euros, partly in an attempt to get Owen to stay.

Rafa is Machiavellian, but to push Owen out makes no sense. Getting him to sign a new contract and selling him for full value a year on, that's a proper Machiavellian move, but your argument flies in the face of rationality, and simply betrays your dislike of Benitez more than anything else.

I also wonder about you giving Parry full credit for trying to resign Owen. Aren't you in the same lobby who thinks it is ludicrous that Keane was signed by Parry without Rafa's consent? Your scenario would be equally ludicrous. Parry had to be negotiating under instruction from Rafa.
[/quote]
I have not been critical of Benitez in any of his Owen dealings, I think he has done what he has had to do, my issue is that people fail to accept the possibility that are two sides to this argument. I don't dislike Benitez. I am very critical of the repeated basic mistakes he keeps making, every year, regarding tactics and team selection.
I am not giving Parry full credit for trying to resign Owen, Parry was leading it, and hoping to drag Benitez along with it up to a point. As far as Keane goes, I don't have a strong opinion either way as to who it was, but I would be very surprised if the deal was done without any input from the Manager.

regards
 
Owen is not the most ideal striker for Benitez's system but Im 100% sure that Rafa would have rather kept Owen in 2004 than Baros or Cisse.
 
[quote author=red_maradona link=topic=34487.msg900131#msg900131 date=1246703861]
how will united fans respond to him?
[/quote]
I would think that they will be very nervous that he is the replacement for Tevez.
If they bring a top name, or two, in then they should be happy he is back-up and it has pissed us off big time

regards
 
MichaelOwen_2325092.jpg
 
As someone said earlier, Owen like most footballers is a businessman and will money in the bank will be one of the first factors towards moving.

That said, if he scores against yus and kisses the badge, he is a cunt.
 
[quote author=Gareth link=topic=34487.msg900141#msg900141 date=1246705147]
As someone said earlier, Owen like most footballers is a businessman and will money in the bank will be one of the first factors towards moving.

That said, if he scores against yus and kisses the badge, he is a cunt.
[/quote]

What, and up until that point he's just a naughty boy?

Fuck that, I hope he gets raped by death.
 
Having had time to get used to the idea of Michael playing for Manchester United I can't say that it leaves me with any deep feelings one way or the other.

Obviously, I've reached the stage where I've realised he isn't the player that left us for Real Madrid and his best days are behind him.

That said he will be rejuvenated by getting the chance to reassert himself with a massive club and no doubt will score freely during the times his body is injury fee.

Whilst I can't wish him good luck, I can certainly see why he would sign for Manchester United. Even given he prior allegiances it's a perfectly rational decision which the vast majority would make if they were being honest with themselves.
 
When we play them I hope masch/skrtel/carra/anyone takes him down straight away. Kinda like Kewell on Gary Neville a few years ago.
 
[quote author=Hooz link=topic=34487.msg900143#msg900143 date=1246705213]
[quote author=Gareth link=topic=34487.msg900141#msg900141 date=1246705147]
As someone said earlier, Owen like most footballers is a businessman and will money in the bank will be one of the first factors towards moving.

That said, if he scores against yus and kisses the badge, he is a cunt.
[/quote]

What, and up until that point he's just a naughty boy?

Fuck that, I hope he gets raped by death.
[/quote]

No. He's a very naughty boy.
 
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