The new Gini.
Moises Caicedo
- Thread starter The Nomad
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The new Gini.
Gini was far more technical.
A lesser version of Seedorf.
I'd like that sort of player.
I like good technique. Not utterly shit banana shooting from the edge of the box ala Keita vs Madrid/Villa the other night. I see some technique with Enzo, with Mac Alister, with Jude.
Not so much Caicedo though. He's a Kante type.
Don't get me wrong, I'd have him too over AOC, Keita, even Hendo these days.
Effectively we do need both types of players. A number energetic 8 and a technical number 8/10.
I haven't watched much of Moses to be honest, but i get the impression that he is a bit meh.
Although if he's like a Kante type, yes please. We've missed this sort of player. Fabs used to be that - a modern day water carrier type, but his form has dipped this season, plus he's showing signs of aging. If we're buying Moses to replace Fabs one day, then no thanks. As a backup, maybe, but replacement no. Replacement for Fabs is someone like Tchouaméni. We need to aim higher.
I remember DMs used to begin with Didi with his trademark crumples, then Momo introduced something we haven't seen before - someone who just goes out with only one intention i.e. to stop you playing, full stop. When Mascher came on board, he took it up a notch. Not only did he stop you from playing your game, he destroys you too then joins in the attack. Absolute nutter. But then Fabs outdid everyone by combining all above traits into the modern, dynamic holding/def midfielder. He can defend, pass and shoot - and with guile and grace. Only thing missing is the destroying bit, but he doesn't have to cos his anticipation and positioning is so good.
I doubt Moses will reach anywhere near Kante's levels, but if he's better than Keita, AOC and Hendo. Then buy him to replace either one of them.
Although if he's like a Kante type, yes please. We've missed this sort of player. Fabs used to be that - a modern day water carrier type, but his form has dipped this season, plus he's showing signs of aging. If we're buying Moses to replace Fabs one day, then no thanks. As a backup, maybe, but replacement no. Replacement for Fabs is someone like Tchouaméni. We need to aim higher.
I remember DMs used to begin with Didi with his trademark crumples, then Momo introduced something we haven't seen before - someone who just goes out with only one intention i.e. to stop you playing, full stop. When Mascher came on board, he took it up a notch. Not only did he stop you from playing your game, he destroys you too then joins in the attack. Absolute nutter. But then Fabs outdid everyone by combining all above traits into the modern, dynamic holding/def midfielder. He can defend, pass and shoot - and with guile and grace. Only thing missing is the destroying bit, but he doesn't have to cos his anticipation and positioning is so good.
I doubt Moses will reach anywhere near Kante's levels, but if he's better than Keita, AOC and Hendo. Then buy him to replace either one of them.
That's the problem innit. We just don't have the right mix, and what good we have is not reliable. Caicedo has all the things that @rurikbird talks about that we are looking out for. But what I hate about our midfield under Klopp is that they are just recycling merchants, not enough technical/creative ability, other than Thiago and to some extent Milner. I hate how we always seem unable to pass our way out when being pressed by opposition and its the thing that sets city apart from us. That kid that scored our 3rd goal against Villa, I love his technical ability but right now as shown against City in the league cup he was shown up by City's midfield. Also regards Fabio, I think he is just too weak to compete in midfield, body frame is just too small and I fear he won't bulk up much either. I would love us to have next season Enzo, Caicedo, and Jude. Just don't trust Fabinho at all now, so I get we can never afford the three I would like but what if we could have Enzo, Ambrabat, and Jude ? Fuck knows, just want something different with the main requirement being availability which we don't have from ANY of our midfielders now.
Amrabat’s shit - 6 games inbtge space if a month don’t cover off the fact he’s been kicking about for 8 years at a mediocre level.
He’d be colossal waste of time & money.
Amrabat looks like a disaster waiting to happen for whoever is tricked into paying big money for him. He's been a middling player for several years in Italy, had a couple of good world cup performances and suddenly people are talking about £40m for him. I think £20m would be closer to his real value as he'll be 27 by the start of next season and he's never been on the radar of any top club prior to the WC.
Caicedo - that'll be a soft pass from me. Fine player but not at the level required for a team that'll be pushing for CL & PL titles, at least not yet, he's a 20 yr old with potential (Bellingham is an exception). I want players that are close now and that'll be good for at least the next 5-7 years.
Also are we going to add yet another non-goalscorer (1 goal last season 1 this), non-creative (1 assist), non-dribbling, non-shooting player to our midfield? I'd rather stay with Badger Tits than splash the best part of £70m on an unproven 20 year old with less than half a season of PL games.
We don't need 2 x CDMs in the team so unless he's there to backup and later replace Fabinho then he's not the player we need.
Also are we going to add yet another non-goalscorer (1 goal last season 1 this), non-creative (1 assist), non-dribbling, non-shooting player to our midfield? I'd rather stay with Badger Tits than splash the best part of £70m on an unproven 20 year old with less than half a season of PL games.
We don't need 2 x CDMs in the team so unless he's there to backup and later replace Fabinho then he's not the player we need.
How many goals/assists did hendo/gini/fabs contribute when we won the league and big ears?
I don't know. Tell me. I can remember quite a few right off the top of my head though ! But that's hardly the point, which is that we don't need 2 x CDMs in the same starting team.
Caciedo isnt meh and he shouldnt be overlooked because he hasnt contributed with more goals or assists. I’m vary of a big fee given his history and experience in the league, but he has the attributes that we need in our midfield going forward.
The Key here is building a set up that can get the best out of everyone in midfield and make them a unit. Caciedo is brilliant at breaking up play, winning the ball and has the atheltisism and energy we sorley lack. He is also extremely good in possession and nearly always picks the right pass despite his young age. Think he has bossed just about every game I’ve seen him play.
Its a big YES from me. Setting him up with more attacking and fluid midfielders could be a fantastic spine for the next 10 years.
I’d pay the extra 20-25 mill for that and the right player.
The Key here is building a set up that can get the best out of everyone in midfield and make them a unit. Caciedo is brilliant at breaking up play, winning the ball and has the atheltisism and energy we sorley lack. He is also extremely good in possession and nearly always picks the right pass despite his young age. Think he has bossed just about every game I’ve seen him play.
Its a big YES from me. Setting him up with more attacking and fluid midfielders could be a fantastic spine for the next 10 years.
I’d pay the extra 20-25 mill for that and the right player.
Is it that we buy non goalscoring mids or just turn them into that. Gini was pretty good before joining us, same for Keita and to a certain extent Ox
I don't remember either but it wasn't much - the point is the team was built on a midfield whose strength wasn't goal/assist contribution ... hard work, pressing, ensuring the full backs could bomb ahead etc ... that's what made the team tick ... If Klopp wants to go back to that, we need that edge from our midfielders - something they don't routinely offer as individuals, and rarely as a unit.
Its not viable to think that you can set up your midfield with players that deliver goals/assists from every position. I dont think thats a trait that should be weighted very highely in certain areas either.
If Caciedo brings back defensive stability and some physicality and balance in midfield. Then that alone will free up others and increase their numbers. Win - win.
If Caciedo brings back defensive stability and some physicality and balance in midfield. Then that alone will free up others and increase their numbers. Win - win.
Same. I haven't seen a bad game from him yet.
Transfermarkt claim he played 12 games at DM and 3 at CM. The Fbref head to head is interesting as Caicedo and Fabinho are so similar :
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...2-2023&player_id2=7f3b388c&p2yrfrom=2022-2023
Tielemans is free in the summer. For me that's a total no brainer.
Hype. As per usual.
So who is worth €70m on your list of attainable targets?
Alrighty-o calm down Mr look at me I know it all.
Obviously was only trying to exaggerate my point.
Dudes been in England like 5 days.
We only have 3 targets we've been linked to in Jude Enzo and Caicedo so it's difficult to say who else is about we would target for that figure.
I'd personally take a gamble on Tielemans + Amrabat, both would come for 70m.
Frenkie de Jong is sure worth 70m & don't see why he wouldn't be attainable.
Nico Barella is sure worth 70m & don't see why he wouldn't be attainable.
Leon Goretzska is sure worth 70m & don't see why he wouldn't be attainable.
I'd personally take a gamble on Tielemans + Amrabat, both would come for 70m.
Frenkie de Jong is sure worth 70m & don't see why he wouldn't be attainable.
Nico Barella is sure worth 70m & don't see why he wouldn't be attainable.
Leon Goretzska is sure worth 70m & don't see why he wouldn't be attainable.
It was a joke. I was agreeing with you that he's not played a lot in England.
Hence the 27
Stop joking with me Nomad, I don't need to know the facts.
Just gimme Enzo and Jude and I'll be on my way.
No thanks to Moses, been there done that. Never again.
https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/ar...ez-interview-moises-caicedo-ecuador-world-cup
[article]
One of Caicedo’s mentors on his journey to the top was Spanish coach Miguel Angel Ramirez, who crossed paths with the player when, in June 2018, he took over as head youth coach at Ecuador’s Independiente del Valle, a club famed for its talent development. Now coaching MLS team Charlotte FC, Ramirez recalled his time with Caicedo to FIFA+.
First meeting: “He was injured when I arrived. He’d had a few operations and he was working his way back to full fitness. He’d started to play again for the U-18s, his age group, and they were talking to me about him. I don’t know if it was a turning point but there was a tournament we went to in Spain that was a very big moment for him. We’d been invited by Real Sociedad to bring our 2002 generation, though we could also take players born in 2001, Moises among them. People in Spain loved watching the team and we beat the best academies in the land before losing the final. That was when we saw how reliable a performer Moises was. We saw what he had to offer.”
Making the step up: “We’d pick lads from the youth teams all the time and when a space came up one day it was his turn. Moises would have made it without us anyway. Juan Manuel Lillo (a Spanish coach who is currently an assistant to Pep Guardiola at Manchester City) once said, ‘Some flowers grow on the road’. Even if things had been a bit tougher for him, Moises still would have made it.”
A change of position: “He was a No5, a midfielder. In a 4-3-3 formation, he’d be the only central midfielder. That’s the position he started out in when he joined the first team, and in the first few games he played for me he replaced [Cristian] Pellerano. In his first Copa Libertadores match, though, we gave him the No8 jersey and he scored, against Junior de Barranquilla. That showed us that he could be more influential in that position.”
An attacking midfielder in the making: “We could see that his weakest point at No5 was hitting long balls, which is something you have to do quite a lot of in that position. He didn’t strike it cleanly and he’d hit it faster and flatter than it needed to be. If you’re playing further forward though, you don’t have to hit that pass so much. It’s all about short and medium-range passes. Strangely enough, he’s got a great shot on him, and he can finish from outside the box and the edge of the box. Kids who play at altitude like to shoot from outside the box because they know they can hit it faster and put more effect on the ball. So he was taught to shoot on goal as soon as he had a bit of space.”
Box to box: “In the No8 shirt he had an impact no other player could give us. He was a box-to-box midfielder who helped out so much in defence, doing all the repetitive stuff, but who could also play the killer ball, score, and get into the opposition box. He could see that he was more involved in the game, especially in attack. One day he said to me that he preferred being a No8. It also allowed us to put him in the first line of defence along with our centre forward, who was Gabriel Torres at the time. With the legs he had he’d force a lot of opposition errors whenever they tried to play the ball out from defence. What with the press we had and having Moises in the front line, it saved us a lot of work at the back when we played against teams that dared to play out from defence, because he’d force the opposition to make mistakes.”
Tough love: “It was his birthday and he asked the physio for permission to go and celebrate it at home. The physio asked me and I said no, he couldn’t go home because there are no days off when you’re injured. So he plucked up the courage and asked me in person. I said to him, ‘No, Moises. You can’t go home. You’re injured. You’ve got to keep on working. You can’t miss a single day of your recovery because, if you do, then it’s a day longer that you have to wait to be fit again.’ It was a way of teaching him about what lies ahead, what awaits him in the professional world, because as soon as he left Ecuador he was going to be celebrating birthdays on his own because his family was back here. I wasn’t going to budge but I thought that was how I should teach him about what lay ahead. Five minutes later he was on the bike in the gym, crying his eyes out. And that’s where he stayed. Without saying a word to me he went back home that night to celebrate his birthday, but he came back in the morning for his treatment. He got what he wanted and so did I. He drove for several hours, had his birthday party, and came back the next day to work with the physio. He was really angry. He was angry for a long time, until one day we met up and went for a walk and I asked him how long he was going to be angry for. I told him I just wanted him to learn what things would be like the following year. And he said to me, ‘I wanted to go home because I knew it was going to be the last birthday that I’d have with my family.”
Every blade of grass for Brighton: “Then there’s the way Brighton play. He’s playing less of a positional game than he did with me, when he had to keep to the structure more and spread himself out better. Now, just as he did in Belgium, he feels he has to come up with solutions to help his team-mates get the ball forward. He’s everywhere, attacking and defending. He’s gets forward, he has the legs to get everywhere, to cover and help out, to get into the area. He’s got drive, he offers himself, and he’s got the ability to keep putting the effort in, which is why he covers every blade of grass.”
Tried and tested in the Premier League: “In a league in which you’ve got less space to make decisions, Moises has shown that he can do things fast enough to get out of tight and tricky situations. He’s a good communicator with his passing and his movement. He makes it easy for others to find him and he finds them just as easily too. He does all the repetitive stuff, he understands space and he knows where the opposition, his team-mates and the space is. He’s very quick to understand that. He thinks on his feet and does things quickly because he’s got a great first touch and pass. The thing that really stands out about him now is his link-up play and dynamism. You have to have that in the Premier League or you don’t get a game.”
A key performer on the road to Qatar 2022: “He had the same impact with the national team as he did with us at Independiente. It made him a better player. We had the likes of Pellerano and [Lorenzo] Faravelli around him, and although the national team has a lot of players to choose from, Moises is vital to the way they play and their structure. Virtually everything goes through him, both defence and attack. Moises is a leader because of his work rate, his creativity and his aggressiveness. He’s young but he’s not the type of leader who goes out and talks a lot. He’s not that type of kid. He’s very quiet. He’s not going to shout and scream and get Ecuador going that way. He does it with his style of play, because he’s vital for La Tri.”
[/article]
[article]
One of Caicedo’s mentors on his journey to the top was Spanish coach Miguel Angel Ramirez, who crossed paths with the player when, in June 2018, he took over as head youth coach at Ecuador’s Independiente del Valle, a club famed for its talent development. Now coaching MLS team Charlotte FC, Ramirez recalled his time with Caicedo to FIFA+.
First meeting: “He was injured when I arrived. He’d had a few operations and he was working his way back to full fitness. He’d started to play again for the U-18s, his age group, and they were talking to me about him. I don’t know if it was a turning point but there was a tournament we went to in Spain that was a very big moment for him. We’d been invited by Real Sociedad to bring our 2002 generation, though we could also take players born in 2001, Moises among them. People in Spain loved watching the team and we beat the best academies in the land before losing the final. That was when we saw how reliable a performer Moises was. We saw what he had to offer.”
Making the step up: “We’d pick lads from the youth teams all the time and when a space came up one day it was his turn. Moises would have made it without us anyway. Juan Manuel Lillo (a Spanish coach who is currently an assistant to Pep Guardiola at Manchester City) once said, ‘Some flowers grow on the road’. Even if things had been a bit tougher for him, Moises still would have made it.”
A change of position: “He was a No5, a midfielder. In a 4-3-3 formation, he’d be the only central midfielder. That’s the position he started out in when he joined the first team, and in the first few games he played for me he replaced [Cristian] Pellerano. In his first Copa Libertadores match, though, we gave him the No8 jersey and he scored, against Junior de Barranquilla. That showed us that he could be more influential in that position.”
An attacking midfielder in the making: “We could see that his weakest point at No5 was hitting long balls, which is something you have to do quite a lot of in that position. He didn’t strike it cleanly and he’d hit it faster and flatter than it needed to be. If you’re playing further forward though, you don’t have to hit that pass so much. It’s all about short and medium-range passes. Strangely enough, he’s got a great shot on him, and he can finish from outside the box and the edge of the box. Kids who play at altitude like to shoot from outside the box because they know they can hit it faster and put more effect on the ball. So he was taught to shoot on goal as soon as he had a bit of space.”
Box to box: “In the No8 shirt he had an impact no other player could give us. He was a box-to-box midfielder who helped out so much in defence, doing all the repetitive stuff, but who could also play the killer ball, score, and get into the opposition box. He could see that he was more involved in the game, especially in attack. One day he said to me that he preferred being a No8. It also allowed us to put him in the first line of defence along with our centre forward, who was Gabriel Torres at the time. With the legs he had he’d force a lot of opposition errors whenever they tried to play the ball out from defence. What with the press we had and having Moises in the front line, it saved us a lot of work at the back when we played against teams that dared to play out from defence, because he’d force the opposition to make mistakes.”
Tough love: “It was his birthday and he asked the physio for permission to go and celebrate it at home. The physio asked me and I said no, he couldn’t go home because there are no days off when you’re injured. So he plucked up the courage and asked me in person. I said to him, ‘No, Moises. You can’t go home. You’re injured. You’ve got to keep on working. You can’t miss a single day of your recovery because, if you do, then it’s a day longer that you have to wait to be fit again.’ It was a way of teaching him about what lies ahead, what awaits him in the professional world, because as soon as he left Ecuador he was going to be celebrating birthdays on his own because his family was back here. I wasn’t going to budge but I thought that was how I should teach him about what lay ahead. Five minutes later he was on the bike in the gym, crying his eyes out. And that’s where he stayed. Without saying a word to me he went back home that night to celebrate his birthday, but he came back in the morning for his treatment. He got what he wanted and so did I. He drove for several hours, had his birthday party, and came back the next day to work with the physio. He was really angry. He was angry for a long time, until one day we met up and went for a walk and I asked him how long he was going to be angry for. I told him I just wanted him to learn what things would be like the following year. And he said to me, ‘I wanted to go home because I knew it was going to be the last birthday that I’d have with my family.”
Every blade of grass for Brighton: “Then there’s the way Brighton play. He’s playing less of a positional game than he did with me, when he had to keep to the structure more and spread himself out better. Now, just as he did in Belgium, he feels he has to come up with solutions to help his team-mates get the ball forward. He’s everywhere, attacking and defending. He’s gets forward, he has the legs to get everywhere, to cover and help out, to get into the area. He’s got drive, he offers himself, and he’s got the ability to keep putting the effort in, which is why he covers every blade of grass.”
Tried and tested in the Premier League: “In a league in which you’ve got less space to make decisions, Moises has shown that he can do things fast enough to get out of tight and tricky situations. He’s a good communicator with his passing and his movement. He makes it easy for others to find him and he finds them just as easily too. He does all the repetitive stuff, he understands space and he knows where the opposition, his team-mates and the space is. He’s very quick to understand that. He thinks on his feet and does things quickly because he’s got a great first touch and pass. The thing that really stands out about him now is his link-up play and dynamism. You have to have that in the Premier League or you don’t get a game.”
A key performer on the road to Qatar 2022: “He had the same impact with the national team as he did with us at Independiente. It made him a better player. We had the likes of Pellerano and [Lorenzo] Faravelli around him, and although the national team has a lot of players to choose from, Moises is vital to the way they play and their structure. Virtually everything goes through him, both defence and attack. Moises is a leader because of his work rate, his creativity and his aggressiveness. He’s young but he’s not the type of leader who goes out and talks a lot. He’s not that type of kid. He’s very quiet. He’s not going to shout and scream and get Ecuador going that way. He does it with his style of play, because he’s vital for La Tri.”
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Worth is relative, isn’t it? That lad cost Brighton less than £4 million. He then plays 20 or matches and he’s suddenly worth £70 million?
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