Klopp

[davud graham]

I'm sure they had alternatives. I'm also sure that VVD was by a very long way THE player Klopp wanted to come, he still wants to come, Klopp still believes he can get him and he's determined to get him. I'll judge him on what happens with that. But I'm not having this endless argumentative pivoting between 'we know as much as managers do' and 'we know nothing, we're just humble fans' routine that some are doing. It's easy and lazy and it has no constructive purpose.

I'm not sure that any of the discussions on here have a constructive purpose and that's hardly the point in engaging in the forum. The discussion is itself the purpose and always being constructive would be quite dull. Disagreements or differing opinions lead to much more interesting discussions than when everyones agrees. It's why there are more posts and posters on here after a defeat than after a win as people feel more need to vent, blame or discuss what went wrong. Chill out dude it's not personal it's just an opinion ,feel free to agree , disagree or ignore.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Enough of this valid analytical claptrap! I think it's time to bring the arguments in this thread up from the depths of ignorance - and back to the normal SCM standard.

 

[moron]

Enough of this valid analytical claptrap! I think it's time to bring the arguments in this thread up from the depths of ignorance - and back to the normal SCM standard.

Ah...no change then ?

 

[Wiberg]

It's always hard to be fair when you are looking at 24/7 shoots and about 7/2 in shots on goal and a missed Pen.

I think Emre stayed on far too long and that playing Moreno for the entire 2nd half with a yellow was an unnecessary gamble to make. I would have loved to see Coutinhou on for Emre while we were still ahead 2-1 and there was space to spare in their part of the field.

The same two players who should have been taken off in the EURO final defeat sooner rather than later, ironically...

Just my two cents of course.

 

[gkmacca]

I'm not sure that any of the discussions on here have a constructive purpose and that's hardly the point in engaging in the forum.

It is for me when it's not just being good humoured. As for the other stuff, I don't mean you. The mod who decides about once a month to get abusive and the professional smart arse are the only ones, though it's a bit sad they get a free run.

 

[gkmacca]

Up to the Club/scouts who's job it is to scout around Europe and beyond and find a gem or two. That's literally their job.

It is, although fans who don't do their job still decide what they've done in their job and make a judgement based on that lack of knowledge.

 

[moron]

No, even Klopp has said that wouldn't be enough:

"If these problems would have been sorted with one player, you can imagine we'd put all our money in and say 'let's do this'."

He's acknowledged that simply adding one player isn't the answer, so he's clearly investigating if adding no players might work.

The thing is - he probably looked at last seasons end when we really needed to get some results and we had quite a few clean sheets if I remember and won games 1-0 against the sides we usually struggle against. So he probably now only wants to get what he thinks is the best he can get - and adding no players means that he is willing to work with what he has. Now if I was him I would think:-

1) Ok - they can actually defend if we setup to defend and not go all gung-ho
2) Ok - we don't lose to the top teams so we can compete with them with what we have
3) Just need to improve how we play against the lower sides which we did in the final games of last season.

So what needs changing...nothing - just more attacking options because that is what screwed us last December/January. Tomorrow will be another test - wondering how he is going to set up.

 

[keniget]

So this idea that VVD will come in Jan... is that a real possibility?

It would certainly be easier to understand not signing a CB in the summer if that does happen.

Why would Southampton sell in Jan but not in the summer?

 

[Molbystwin]

The amount of worrying apparently many are suffering from will be assuaged greatly when we lift trophy in May.

Guaranteed Champions.

Us.

 

[localny]

I think the feeling is we will sign a real PLAN B in January if not VD. Someone decent, not someone rushed, and not someone who maybe ok. I say this with no sourcing whatsoever, except Red Astaire who says he saw something in his tealeaves

 

[Dreambeliever]

We should have kept Lucas!

(Shut up, Modo)

In fairness I think he would have done a better job at CB so far that what we've put out which says it t all

 

[Judge Jules]

So this idea that VVD will come in Jan... is that a real possibility?

It would certainly be easier to understand not signing a CB in the summer if that does happen.

Why would Southampton sell in Jan but not in the summer?

Fair question. My suggested answer to it centres on Southampton saving face (as far as poss) after having so publicly refused to sell him to us. Van Dijk's remained insistent throughout that he wants to play for us and no-one else, Southampton included, so - unless they're willing simply to let him fester in the ressies, which would do the atmosphere around the club no good and cause his value to drop like a stone into the bargain - they wait for the fuss to die down and then let him go. We might not particularly want to let them salvage what remains of their shattered cred, but we'd do so in the interests of finally getting the deal across the line.

 

[jason]

BRILLIANT POST...

Then give him a like then. You stingy fe................b..........

 

[Molbystwin]

Overall my assertion is that constant excessive whinging, asking if Klopp is stupid or good enough or too stubborn, whining at the players themselves from the crowd, pointing the finger at FSG etc etc... what the hell is the depression gonna get us?? Is it going to get us another good or better manager?? No. Is it going to get us owned by a foreign oil country? Ermmm probably No.... Is getting on the players backs gonna make them play better?? No... but it does make you like a bunch of Arsenal fans....

If you havent enjoyed watching LFC or noticed that we've greatly improved and are fun and exciting to watch and back in the champs league, after fully deserving to finish in the top four last season despite playing against a bunch of teams who had better deeper squads and huge budgets....then what the fuck have you been watching?

Is being so negative going to make this weekends game any better? Two bad results and it is game over apparently... Liverpool never used to be a city like that in my memory.... I'd prefer to show some support and enjoy it while I'm doing so....


Last season yes we conceded too many goals but our man problem was losing a bunch of good players for fucking months on end and the African nations cup and then teams coming to Anfield and parking the bus, even fucking United did it... that's how dangerous we were last season and our squad has been improved since. I think we will definitely be better against parked buses this season.

Focusing on the negative is a self fulfilling prophecy... which player would want to play for a bunch of whinging cunts like that anyway?? We've got players turning down bigger offers from their own club to come and join us... we've got a defender at another club uninterested in playing for two big oil clubs because he would rather play for us.... we are pretty much outplaying Sevilla in the Champions league having been out of it for fucking years and even that isn't a reason to be positive....

You win fuck all in September, I for one am hoping for good stuff to arrive in May.... not because I'm ignorant or optimistic but more because when we play well we look fucking boss.

 

[dmishra]

To be fair to Klopp, I pulled out a list the top 50 CBs from Transfermarkt (by estimated transfer value), and I got this list:

1 Leonardo Bonucci
2 Mats Hummels
3 Gerard Piqué
4 Jérôme Boateng
5 John Stones
6 Marquinhos
7 Raphaël Varane
8 Toby Alderweireld
9 Eric Bailly
10 Virgil van Dijk
11 Samuel Umtiti
12 Stefan Savic
13 Konstantinos Manolas
14 Kalidou Koulibaly
15 Shkodran Mustafi
16 Nicolás Otamendi
17 David Luiz
18 Javi Martínez
19 Jan Vertonghen
20 Sokratis
21 Stefan de Vrij
22 Aymeric Laporte
23 Antonio Rüdiger
24 Joel Matip
25 Victor Lindelöf
26 Iñigo Martínez
27 Michael Keane
28 Chris Smalling
29 Marcos Rojo
30 Kamil Glik
31 Mateo Musacchio
32 Benedikt Höwedes
33 Daniele Rugani
34 Dejan Lovren
35 Ömer Toprak
36 Mattia Caldara
37 Matthias Ginter
38 Eliaquim Mangala
39 Nacho Fernández
40 Mamadou Sakho
41 Medhi Benatia
42 Ezequiel Garay
43 Jemerson
44 Rúben Semedo
45 John Anthony Brooks
46 Phil Jones
47 Víctor Ruiz
48 Gabriel Paulista
49 Jeison Murillo
50 Simon Kjaer

There aren't very many great options on that list to be honest.

If you exclude Rudiger, Lindelof and Keane, who moved to other clubs, the stand-out options from that list probably are:

van Dijk
Koulibaly
Manolas
De Vrij
Laporte
Ginter

Of that lot, De Vrij, Manolas, Laporte and Ginter are similar to Matip - primarily ball-playing CBs. Whereas Klopp is clearly looking for someone who is aggressive, aerially dominant, and can be a leader at the back. Someone who can replace Lovren and play alongside Matip.

That probably just leaves van Dijk and Koulibaly. Perhaps then the feeling at the club was that it's better to wait, and see if we can get van Dijk in January?

Having said that, I think with Lucas and Sakho leaving, and Gomez moving to RB, there could have been an attempt to bring a talented young CB to at least challenge Klavan's position in the squad.

There are loads of talented u-23 CBs playing across Europe. Maguire, Lascelles, Mawson could have been options from England. Then there are the likes of Tah, Kongolo, Issa Diop, Kimpembe etc.

 

[Modo]

Off the top of my head, we could have made a move for Lascelles at Newcastle or Dunk at Brighton. Twice as good as Klavan.

 

[FoxForceFive]

I'm as pissed off about our defence as anyone, but let's face it, we've played seven games, won four, drawn two, & lost one.

That's hardly fucking crisis time by any means.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Ffs there must be at least 20 CB's across the top leagues that would improve our options.

At the moment we have 3 cbs.

It's laughable

 

[Judge Jules]

How many times has that been said about LFC, referring to how many positions in the team, over the last quarter century or so? And how many of those "near enough is good enough" signings have actually come good? Answers on a fecking postcard.

 

[manwithnoname]

How many times has that been said about LFC, referring to how many positions in the team, over the last quarter century or so? And how many of those "near enough is good enough" signings have actually come good? Answers on a fecking postcard.

So again, are you saying that if we were unable to sign VVD, then we were correct not to sign anyone at all, out of all the possible CBs in the world?

And if so, does this admirable sentiment also apply to their positions we strengthened over summer?

Because that would mean you think Chamberlain was a great signing at 40m, and was also the most suitable player in the world we could have signed, and if we hadn't signed him, nobody else would be good enough

So there's two questions there, really.

 

[Judge Jules]

What I'm saying, and all I'm saying, is that we were correct not to sign any CB other than van Dijk if Klopp decided that none of the other realistic options would represent value for money. This has no connection with or implication for any other signings, or lack of signings, in any other position.

 

[manwithnoname]

What I'm saying, and all I'm saying, is that we were correct not to sign any CB other than van Dijk if Klopp decided that none of the other realistic options would represent value for money. This has no connection with or implication for any other signings, or lack of signings, in any other position.

No we weren't, because Klopp was wrong

 

[Judge Jules]

You may be right, but I'd be less confident than you that my judgment of that was better than Klopp's.

 

[i_rushie]

Comparing the signing of Chamberlain to VVD is plain silly, likewise this whole "most suitable player we could have signed" argument.

Chamberlain's not replacing any of our forwards (and probably midfielders) in the starting lineup, but it's clear VVD is intended to be our first choice CB. It's plain to see he expects his first choice CB to be outstanding, and won't settle for anything less.

I mean they haggled over Salah, another of his top targets for weeks, so it's not difficult to understand that he's prepared to be patient to land his top targets.

 

[Glen C]

You may be right, but I'd be less confident than you that my judgment of that was better than Klopp's.

C'mon now can you really say van dijk is the ONLY defender who can improve us?

 

[Judge Jules]

As I posted a few pages back:

Not what I'm saying. I think Klopp looked at the CB options that we (a) knew about and (b) could expect to get, and decided that none of them would strengthen us enough to make the signing(s) worthwhile. I also think he's likely to be in a better position to judge that than any of us are, especially against the background of LFC's less than glorious record of p!$$ing money away on back-up options (in various positions) and watching them fall short. Last but not least, I'm willing to bet nobody at the club really thought our public abandonment of the van Dijk signing would be the end of the story.

 

[davud graham]

Well if the scouting department and Klopp can't genuinely find any central defenders better than our lot other than Van Dijk then their judgement needs to be questioned. Matip and Klavan made a complete bollocks of it for their goal today and who in their right mind would believe that we can't do better than them clowns, you can add Lovren to the list of shit centre backs also even though he didn't play today. Every time these fuckers play together it looks like they've just met and hadn't trained and played together before.

 

[Judge Jules]

Sigh.

For the zillionth time, "better than our lot" is not the point. The point is value for money - would the improvement one or more of these players might (MIGHT) make be worth the money we'd have to pay for them, especially given the fact that we'll have to pay a shedload for van Dijk when we go back in for him, hopefully in January? Klopp's clearly taken the view that, taking all those things into consideration, the answer is "no", and none of us is qualified to think we know better.

 

[manwithnoname]

Well if the scouting department and Klopp can't genuinely find any central defenders better than our lot other than Van Dijk then their judgement needs to be questioned. Matip and Klavan made a complete bollocks of it for their goal today and who in their right mind would believe that we can't do better than them clowns, you can add Lovren to the list of shit centre backs also even though he didn't play today. Every time these fuckers play together it looks like they've just met and hadn't trained and played together before.

Yeah, it's all very well talking about not settling for anything other than your first choice (although few managers or teams ever do, not least us with Mane, Salah and others), but the simple fact is, that if the *only* player you consider good enough to challenge Lovren, The Binman and Matip is VVD, you're fucking mental

And if for whatever reason you *don't* sign that player, and actually sign nobody at all, and thus start the season with those three as your first choice CBs, you are at best deluded and reckless , and at worst a total cunt.

 

[darkstarexodus]

Given that all of our centrebacks look a bit shit and that we want to compete on 4 fronts, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest we should have been in the market for Van Dijk AND another target. Getting no one was a major failure.