Klopp

[gkmacca]

That looks, sounds and smells like a cock-up so it's hardly surprising so many of us are calling it for what it is.

Not at all surprising.

 

[Judge Jules]

But we could spare it though. We don't need Ox for starters and his money could have gone towards ANOTHER defender. Lets be honest here even if we did buy van dijk during the summer he wouldn't have been fit to play under Klopp until at least another month. We needed 2 CBs and we bought none and that's why we're going to struggle this season. Doesn't matter how many goals you can score if you can't stop them going in. From day 1 Klopp's main priority (as he said it was) should have been to fix our ridiculously shit defence. He's failed to do that and could be argued that defensively we are even worse than when he got here.

There's a lot of rewriting of history going on in that post. We did and do need the Ox with all the games we're going to be playing; we can't know van Dijk wouldn't have been fit for a month if his transfer had gone through as it should have done (that was our major foul-up, from which the rest followed); and both Matip and Lovren had finished the previous season in decent form so there wasn't any reason to suppose we'd need another CB besides van Dijk - there was certainly no clamour for one on here.

I've said in previous posts that Klopp has questions to answer about the defence so I'm quite prepared to do that again now. However, that does not include the idea that we should have bought yet another journeyman CB because he might have been a little bit better that what we've got. Been there, done that, hasn't helped.

 

[Judge Jules]

Whichever way you spin the wheel, it's utterly baffling that we have done so little to address our obvious weakness of a leaky defence.

Our only business was to move our starting left back into the midfield leaving a gap that's been filled alternately by a low-price acquisition from a relegated team and the same perennially under-performing player who spent all last year on the bench. Oh and the sales of Lucas who often deputised at CB last year and Sakho who didn't.

That looks, sounds and smells like a cock-up so it's hardly surprising so many of us are calling it for what it is.

As well as he did there, our starting LB last season is a MF by trade and was only ever going to be a stopgap at the back, plus our low-price acquisition from a relegated team has done well both for us and for his international side since he signed. Lucas was allowed to leave because we thought we were signing van Dijk (which was only prevented by loose lips within the club - THAT was the crucial cock-up and had bugger all to do with Klopp) and Milner was going to move forward into midfield to replace him. I don't know if this includes you or not, but it's funny how some posters who had long wanted rid of Sakho are now trying to use his sale as a pitchfork on which to impale Klopp to try and justify their mob hysteria.

 

[Glen C]

There's a lot of rewriting of history going on in that post. We did and do need the Ox with all the games we're going to be playing; we can't know van Dijk wouldn't have been fit for a month if his transfer had gone through as it should have done (that was our major foul-up, from which the rest followed); and both Matip and Lovren had finished the previous season in decent form so there wasn't any reason to suppose we'd need another CB besides van Dijk - there was certainly no clamour for one on here.

I've said in previous posts that Klopp has questions to answer about the defence so I'm quite prepared to do that again now. However, that does not include the idea that we should have bought yet another journeyman CB because he might have been a little bit better that what we've got. Been there, done that, hasn't helped.

Matip sure, but Lovren? C'mon now we were all calling for his head by the end of the season. But regardless it was obvious we wasn't going to get Van dijk so a replacement should have already been scouted as backup. I'm sorry but Klopp is chatting shit when he said they looked at all these other CBs and not one of them was better than what we already have.

 

[Judge Jules]

Yes, Lovren. Many of us on here were asking "Why can't he play like that every week?", given how poorly he'd done earlier in the season, and some voted for him as MOTM after some of our games around that time.

No, it was not "obvious" we weren't going to get van Dijk. Only after some tw't within the club shot his mouth off at the wrong time did Southampton get the hump and shut things down.

I wasn't aware Klopp had said that, but I'd need to know who he (or you) had in mind before deciding whether I agreed with him. The point about value for money remains - if they were not much better than what we have already there'd be no point depleting our transfer kitty for them, esp.when we're still in the hunt for van Dijk.

 

[localny]

lads just for perspective here's our results in the first 5 games of 2013-2014 - arguably our best chance at a title since the PL began

Liverpool F.C.Scores & schedule
[xtable]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Aug 17 - Premier League
Liverpool{/td}

{td}

2 - 1{/td}

{td}
FT
Southampton{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Aug 25 - Premier League
Man. City{/td}

{td}

3 - 1{/td}

{td}
FT
Liverpool{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Aug 31 - Premier League
Tottenham{/td}

{td}

0 - 3{/td}

{td}
FT
Liverpool{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Sep 13 - Premier League

Liverpool{/td}

{td}

0 - 1{/td}

{td}
FT
Aston Villa

{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Sep 20 - Premier League

West Ham{/td}

{td}

3 - 1{/td}

{td}
FT
Liverpool{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]

That's right, we lost 3 games out of the first 5. 6 points we had. Now we have 8.

Calm down for Jaysis sakes, and let our flawed but talented manager take it one game at a time - he'll fix the leaky defence. Show a little faith (for now)

 

[LarryHagman]

The cult of Klopp. We did this with Benitez. It's like Corbyn, you're either with us or up for execution. Anything less than total obedience will not be tolerated.

 

[Judge Jules]

Nope. Those of us who refuse to join a baying mob only five games into just his second full season have still acknowledged that he has questions to answer. It's those looking for a convenient scapegoat who can't be @rsed to think things through but are content to pick up a pitchfork and holler "Burn him!".

 

[Glen C]

Yes, Lovren. Many of us on here were asking "Why can't he play like that every week?", given how poorly he'd done earlier in the season, and some voted for him as MOTM after some of our games around that time.

No, it was not "obvious" we weren't going to get van Dijk. Only after some tw't within the club shot his mouth off at the wrong time did Southampton get the hump and shut things down.

I wasn't aware Klopp had said that, but I'd need to know who he (or you) had in mind before deciding whether I agreed with him. The point about value for money remains - if they were not much better than what we have already there'd be no point depleting our transfer kitty for them, esp.when we're still in the hunt for van Dijk.

And some of us were saying he's so hit and miss and he needed to go.

It was obvious since liverpool made that statement on the 7th June apologising to Southampton that we weren't going to get him. At this point we still had PLENTY of time to find someone else and we did nothing. The one position where we are weakest and we did fuck all.

Yeah he said in the press conference how they looked at all these alternatives 500 million times and couldn't find anyone better. That was ridiculous statement to make.

 

[LarryHagman]

Nope. Those of us who refuse to join a baying mob only five games into just his second full season have still acknowledged that he has questions to answer. It's those looking for a convenient scapegoat who can't be @rsed to think things through but are content to pick up a pitchfork and holler "Burn him!".

There is no baying mob. There are people who are asking why he's ignored blindingly obvious issues.

 

[kingjulian]

I have not read a single post in this thread. I know this is a Shit thread....it's a monumental waste of time.

This thread probably also has many losers moaning.

I predict one or many of these losers may even direct their venom at my post.

 

[localny]

The cult of Klopp. We did this with Benitez. It's like Corbyn, you're either with us or up for execution. Anything less than total obedience will not be tolerated.

Naah, we're just saying he's done well so far, let's let our expectations lead us to be too critical. Yeah he should have bought defensive cover, but let's move on and give him a chance to get it right. Liverpool fans are supposed to be better than the plastics no? Of course, he's flawed and makes mistakes - but we're back in the CL and the bigger picture is bright.

 

[tombrown]

I have not read a single post in this thread. I know this is a Shit thread....it's a monumental waste of time.

This thread probably also has many losers moaning.

I predict one or many of these losers may even direct their venom at my post.

I'd call you a twat, but I'm not a loser

 

[dmishra]

lads just for perspective here's our results in the first 5 games of 2013-2014 - arguably our best chance at a title since the PL began

Liverpool F.C.Scores & schedule
[xtable=skin1]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Aug 17 - Premier League
Liverpool{/td}
{td}

2 - 1{/td}
{td}
FT
Southampton{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Aug 25 - Premier League
Man. City{/td}
{td}

3 - 1{/td}
{td}
FT
Liverpool{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Aug 31 - Premier League
Tottenham{/td}
{td}

0 - 3{/td}
{td}
FT
Liverpool{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Sep 13 - Premier League

Liverpool{/td}
{td}

0 - 1{/td}
{td}
FT
Aston Villa

{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td=colspan:7} {/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}
Sep 20 - Premier League

West Ham{/td}
{td}

3 - 1{/td}
{td}
FT
Liverpool{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
That's right, we lost 3 games out of the first 5. 6 points we had. Now we have 8.

Calm down for Jaysis sakes, and let our flawed but talented manager take it one game at a time - he'll fix the leaky defence. Show a little faith (for now)

Those are the first 5 results from the 14/15 season, not 13/14.

 

[localny]

Jeepers, you're right, here's 2013 - we had 10 points instead of 8 this year.

Again, nothing to worry about - yet.

[xtable=cellspacing:0]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=19%x@}17 August 20131{/td}
{td=23%x@}Liverpool{/td}
{td=12%x@}1–0{/td}
{td=23%x@}Stoke City{/td}
{th=23%x@}[show]Liverpool{/th}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
[xtable=cellspacing:0]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=19%x@}24 August 20132{/td}
{td=23%x@}Aston Villa{/td}
{td=12%x@}0–1{/td}
{td=23%x@}Liverpool{/td}
{th=23%x@}[show]Birmingham{/th}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
[xtable=cellspacing:0]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=19%x@}1 September 20133{/td}
{td=23%x@}Liverpool{/td}
{td=12%x@}1–0{/td}
{td=23%x@}Manchester United{/td}
{th=23%x@}[show]Liverpool{/th}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
[xtable=cellspacing:0]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=19%x@}16 September 20134{/td}
{td=23%x@}Swansea City{/td}
{td=12%x@}2–2{/td}
{td=23%x@}Liverpool{/td}
{th=23%x@}[show]Swansea{/th}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
[xtable=cellspacing:0]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=19%x@}21 September 20135{/td}
{td=23%x@}Liverpool{/td}
{td=12%x@}0–1{/td}
{td=23%x@}Southampton{/td}
{th=23%x@}[show]Liverpool{/th}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]

 

[dmishra]

13 points, not 10.

 

[localny]

13 points, not 10.

It was 10, no? 3 wins and a draw.

 

[dmishra]

Soz, I thought we beat Southampton.

 

[localny]

Soz, I thought we beat Southampton.

No worries. Bogey team and all that

 

[rurikbird]

And some of us were saying he's so hit and miss and he needed to go.

It was obvious since liverpool made that statement on the 7th June apologising to Southampton that we weren't going to get him. At this point we still had PLENTY of time to find someone else and we did nothing. The one position where we are weakest and we did fuck all.

Yeah he said in the press conference how they looked at all these alternatives 500 million times and couldn't find anyone better. That was ridiculous statement to make.

I can understand if Klopp didn't think he could find someone who's clearly much better than Lovren at an acceptable price – and as we still have a chance to get VVD in January or next summer I can see an argument against breaking the bank for a 2nd or 3rd choice target. However, what I can't understand is the failure to improve on Klavan and Gomez as the 3rd and 4th choice CBs. That shouldn't have been so hard or expensive. Once it became clear that VVD was unlikely to be signed this summer, that's where our focus should have shifted.

Even if Klopp has some kind of loyalty/blind spot for Klavan, why not buy another talented CB (like the Argentinian Mammana who we've been linked with and who ended up going to Zenit for around £14M) and send out Gomez on loan (or loan out/sell Flanno and keep Gomez as FB/emergency CB)? Every part of the team needs an infusion of fresh energy and quality from time to time; our front 3 got this with Salah, midfield will get this next season with Keita, but the defense has stagnated compared to last season and it clearly shows on the pitch.

BTW, even though I didn't see any of Zenit's games this season, it looks like Mammana slotted in perfectly into their defensive partnership alongside former Chelsea man Branislav Ivanovic. He played 90 minutes of every game so far this season and Zenit conceded only 3 goals in these 10 games, including Europa League. Liverpool FC would kill for these kinds of defensive numbers.

 

[Judge Jules]

Good post, fair points. We made a judgment call and it may be that that turns out to have been the wrong one. Five games in is way previous to make final decisions about that though, IMHO of course.

 

[Windom Earle]

We've got a much bigger pool of games than five to judge them on, JJ.

 

[Judge Jules]

Last season's squared away now though, and this season's plan is nowhere near completion yet. There's time for Klopp to change things and van Dijk may well be here in January (if he doesn't come then and things haven't improved, I'm willing to bet we will get someone else in). I see what you're saying but for me the end of the season is the only time for meaningful judgment.