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I would be interested to know

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Oh, and here's a list for you:

Reina
Carragher
Alonso
Mascherano
Gerrard
Kuyt
Benayoun
Torres

Everyone of those players has played the best football of their career under Rafa. Now you can put a lot of that down to natural development, playing in their prime, upping their game, etc etc.

But if you're not going to give Rafa any credit whatsoever for that, then you're letting this season's shite cloud your judgement.

It is no coincidence folks.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39361.msg1071629#msg1071629 date=1268869406]
Oh, and here's a list for you:

Reina
Carragher
Alonso
Mascherano
Gerrard
Kuyt
Benayoun
Torres

Everyone of those players has played the best football of their career under Rafa. Now you can put a lot of that down to natural development, playing in their prime, upping their game, etc etc.

But if you're not going to give Rafa any credit whatsoever for that, then you're letting this season's shite cloud your judgement.

It is no coincidence folks.
[/quote]


I agree

Rafa's not perfect, there will be some players he wont be able to get the best out of, like all managers
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39361.msg1071629#msg1071629 date=1268869406]
Oh, and here's a list for you:

Reina
Carragher
Alonso
Mascherano
Gerrard
Kuyt
Benayoun
Torres

Everyone of those players has played the best football of their career under Rafa. Now you can put a lot of that down to natural development, playing in their prime, upping their game, etc etc.

But if you're not going to give Rafa any credit whatsoever for that, then you're letting this season's shite cloud your judgement.

It is no coincidence folks.
[/quote]

I'd agree with that list, bar maybe Kuyt. He had a goalscoring record up there with the best, albeit in Dutch football. He has made a step up, but it could be argued that he was seen as a better player over there as a free scoring striker. It's about perspective though, as the Premiership is undoubtedly a better standard, but he's been a bit inconsistent, yet a reasonable success here, whereas he was the best striker over there.
 
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39361.msg1071687#msg1071687 date=1268876178]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39361.msg1071629#msg1071629 date=1268869406]
Oh, and here's a list for you:

Reina
Carragher
Alonso
Mascherano
Gerrard
Kuyt
Benayoun
Torres

Everyone of those players has played the best football of their career under Rafa. Now you can put a lot of that down to natural development, playing in their prime, upping their game, etc etc.

But if you're not going to give Rafa any credit whatsoever for that, then you're letting this season's shite cloud your judgement.

It is no coincidence folks.
[/quote]

I'd agree with that list, bar maybe Kuyt. He had a goalscoring record up there with the best, albeit in Dutch football. He has made a step up, but it could be argued that he was seen as a better player over there as a free scoring striker. It's about perspective though, as the Premiership is undoubtedly a better standard, but he's been a bit inconsistent, yet a reasonable success here, whereas he was the best striker over there.
[/quote]

Since joining us, he's scored and played brilliantly against top sides in the Champions League, as well as becoming a first-choice starter in the Dutch side.

None of those things were happening at Feyenoord mate.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39361.msg1071689#msg1071689 date=1268876327]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39361.msg1071687#msg1071687 date=1268876178]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39361.msg1071629#msg1071629 date=1268869406]
Oh, and here's a list for you:

Reina
Carragher
Alonso
Mascherano
Gerrard
Kuyt
Benayoun
Torres

Everyone of those players has played the best football of their career under Rafa. Now you can put a lot of that down to natural development, playing in their prime, upping their game, etc etc.

But if you're not going to give Rafa any credit whatsoever for that, then you're letting this season's shite cloud your judgement.

It is no coincidence folks.
[/quote]

I'd agree with that list, bar maybe Kuyt. He had a goalscoring record up there with the best, albeit in Dutch football. He has made a step up, but it could be argued that he was seen as a better player over there as a free scoring striker. It's about perspective though, as the Premiership is undoubtedly a better standard, but he's been a bit inconsistent, yet a reasonable success here, whereas he was the best striker over there.
[/quote]

Since joining us, he's scored and played brilliantly against top sides in the Champions League, as well as becoming a first-choice starter in the Dutch side.

None of those things were happening at Feyenoord mate.
[/quote]
Yeah suppose. Just saying statistically he was playing his best football over there. Gotta take into account the standard, though. I was just musing really.
 
[quote author=krissr link=topic=39361.msg1071539#msg1071539 date=1268859119]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39361.msg1071538#msg1071538 date=1268859039]
[quote author=krissr link=topic=39361.msg1071537#msg1071537 date=1268858940]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39361.msg1071532#msg1071532 date=1268858702]
I think it's both Kriss. But the performances put in by some of our players this season, and some DO possess talent, makes me believe he cannot motivate them.
[/quote]

And that's the thing i don't agree when people say he cant motivate them, the players play for the club not the manager, and the start of this season should of seen the players motivated more than ever, simply because we our best hope in years of winning the legaue, that should should of been a huge motivation
[/quote]

Well they weren't motivated were they ? Play for the manager, play for the club - the fact remains we've been fucking crap all year. It's the managers job to make sure they ARE motivated. And he's failed to do that. It's as simple as that.
[/quote]

So did he motivate them last season when we played so well and went so close ?
[/quote]

'Went so close'

Yeah.

Sure.

Anyway, in answer to your question, I think Rafa pretty much gets the best out of the good players he brings in.

He just brings in a lot of shit players as well.
 
Putting Xabi in that list rather illustrates the point, mourinho would never have fucked about and then lost a player like him

Mourinho inspires devotion and respect, benitez only ever the latter, and when your transfers, team selection, tactics come apart at the seam - like this season - respect diminishes, and there's nothing else there
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39361.msg1071809#msg1071809 date=1268895725]
Putting Xabi in that list rather illustrates the point, mourinho would never have fucked about and then lost a player like him

Mourinho inspires devotion and respect, benitez only ever the latter, and when your transfers, team selection, tactics come apart at the seam - like this season - respect diminishes, and there's nothing else there


[/quote]

Imagine witnessing first hand Lucas getting picked every week. Good lord.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39361.msg1071523#msg1071523 date=1268857833]
This is all speculative and dependant on your own definition of "getting the best out of".

You could argue he's got the best out of Gerrard.. and Torres.. but how would Fergie have done? or Wenger? Worse? Better?

Whilst Rafa has clearly done a good job with Nando, personally I think if Torres played for United he'd be banging in 30-50goals a season, but we don't create nearly as many chances for him, so is that getting the best out of him?

As I said, is all down to personal definition.
[/quote]

It is, but the point, particularly regards Gerrard and Torres is that he's gotten a high level of World Class performance consistently from his World Class players, he certainly hasn't made them go backwards in any way or blunted their contribution to the side. Ditto Masher and Reina for that matter.
 
[quote author=KopPoNok link=topic=39361.msg1071816#msg1071816 date=1268897407]
Exactly.

He should sign better players. Not those free transfer, rejects.
[/quote]

Mourinho bought quite a few flops and Benitez has as well. The free transfer/reject thing tends to come in when you don't have a blank cheque to play with. That apples and orange comparison has nothing to do with what's being discussed either.
 
[quote author=krissr link=topic=39361.msg1071539#msg1071539 date=1268859119]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39361.msg1071538#msg1071538 date=1268859039]
[quote author=krissr link=topic=39361.msg1071537#msg1071537 date=1268858940]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39361.msg1071532#msg1071532 date=1268858702]
I think it's both Kriss. But the performances put in by some of our players this season, and some DO possess talent, makes me believe he cannot motivate them.
[/quote]

And that's the thing i don't agree when people say he cant motivate them, the players play for the club not the manager, and the start of this season should of seen the players motivated more than ever, simply because we our best hope in years of winning the legaue, that should should of been a huge motivation
[/quote]

Well they weren't motivated were they ? Play for the manager, play for the club - the fact remains we've been fucking crap all year. It's the managers job to make sure they ARE motivated. And he's failed to do that. It's as simple as that.
[/quote]

So did he motivate them last season when we played so well and went so close ?
[/quote]

Do you argue that our displays last season is Rafas standard and this season is the exception? Why is it not the other way around?
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=39361.msg1071822#msg1071822 date=1268898544]
[quote author=KopPoNok link=topic=39361.msg1071816#msg1071816 date=1268897407]
Exactly.

He should sign better players. Not those free transfer, rejects.
[/quote]

Mourinho bought quite a few flops and Benitez has as well. The free transfer/reject thing tends to come in when you don't have a blank cheque to play with. That apples and orange comparison has nothing to do with what's being discussed either.
[/quote]

It's easier to get the best out of players when they are not freebies/rejects (for Liverpool's standard). Getting the best out of kevin davies, he's still kevin davies, not Fernando Torres. Although getting the best out of kevin davies is useful for a club like bolton, but it's nowhere near Liverpool's standards and requirements.
 
One can argue on this.. But take a player like Dirk Kuyt. Do Rafa get the best out of him. A top scorer in the netherlands, and if used correctly definately an attacking treath.

However for Rafa he has turned into a slow motion, backtracking wide midfielder with a Duracell capasity. For Rafa this is a dream come true. A player so dedicated to the cause of closing down space for the opposition. So do Rafa get the best out of him?
 
What's up with those "top" strikers from dutch league?

kezman - flop
Kuyt - "flop"?
hunterlaar - "flop"?
 
[quote author=KopPoNok link=topic=39361.msg1071833#msg1071833 date=1268899912]
What's up with those "top" strikers from dutch league?

kezman - flop
Kuyt - "flop"?
hunterlaar - "flop"?

[/quote]

RVN?
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=39361.msg1071831#msg1071831 date=1268899551]
One can argue on this.. But take a player like Dirk Kuyt. Do Rafa get the best out of him. A top scorer in the netherlands, and if used correctly definately an attacking treath.

However for Rafa he has turned into a slow motion, backtracking wide midfielder with a Duracell capasity. For Rafa this is a dream come true. A player so dedicated to the cause of closing down space for the opposition. So do Rafa get the best out of him?
[/quote]

What he did in the Dutch league is irrelevant, given it's an inferior league and others have been successful there and then flopped elsewhere. Has Kuyt been a success for us? Of course he has, so what's the argument?
 
I can't decide if rafa is doing kuyt a favour or not by playing him regardless of form. on the one hand you could say rafa is giving him the oppertunity to recapture good form by continually playing him but on the other hand it hand it could be argued kuyt 'may' recapture his form sooner if he is dropped and forced to improve before regaining his place.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39361.msg1071835#msg1071835 date=1268900046]
[quote author=KopPoNok link=topic=39361.msg1071833#msg1071833 date=1268899912]
What's up with those "top" strikers from dutch league?

kezman - flop
Kuyt - "flop"?
hunterlaar - "flop"?

[/quote]

RVN?
[/quote]

He is the last successful striker from dutch league, isn't he?
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39361.msg1071836#msg1071836 date=1268900111]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=39361.msg1071831#msg1071831 date=1268899551]
One can argue on this.. But take a player like Dirk Kuyt. Do Rafa get the best out of him. A top scorer in the netherlands, and if used correctly definately an attacking treath.

However for Rafa he has turned into a slow motion, backtracking wide midfielder with a Duracell capasity. For Rafa this is a dream come true. A player so dedicated to the cause of closing down space for the opposition. So do Rafa get the best out of him?
[/quote]

What he did in the Dutch league is irrelevant, given it's an inferior league and others have been successful there and then flopped elsewhere. Has Kuyt been a success for us? Of course he has, so what's the argument?
[/quote]

It is not irrelevant. it is the whole story isnt it? What a player did before he came to our club. Was Ole Solskjær a flop since he scored lots of goals in a inferior league and then scored again a lot of goals for Man U? No because he was used at what he can do..... Kuyt has been a good right midfielder for us... AT TIMES. But if you were really looking for a good right midfielder why bother to look for the top scorer in the dutch league? Rafa has proved over and over again that the types of players he brings in doesnt necessary match the criteria he is looking for.... That makes me wonder how the hell he maps the players and how he wants to utilize the guys he bring in. babel being the perfect example. he wants the left and right midfielders to spen a huge amount of time to close down defenders and support their ful back. Why do you then bring in an expensive player whos strength is to treathen the room behind defenders using pace?
 
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