• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

I realise i'm opening Pandoras box....but....

Status
Not open for further replies.

Fabio

Former mod, consistent c***
Honorary Member
Thoughts?

[size=14pt]Clubs to shortlist black bosses?[/size]
Football clubs may be forced to interview black managers as the PFA attempt to change the colour scheme of football.

Last Updated: 08/09/11 at 10:32 Post Comment




Only two of the 92 league clubs have black managers - Chris Powell at Charlton and Birmingham's Chris Hughton - while around a quarter of players are non-white.

The PFA have called in US civil rights lawyer Cyrus Mehri as part of a plan to get black candidates considered for managerial jobs.

Mehri is one of the men credited with drafting the 'Rooney Rule', which saw NFL clubs forced to interview black candidates. At the 2007 Superbowl, both coaches were black men.

PFA boss Gordon Taylor is keen to see a similar change in English football.

"In football terms, we are the most cosmopolitan country in the world," said Taylor. "There is no distinction between colour, creed, nationality or background.

"However, the PFA spends a lot of money training players for the future and understandably, one of the most obvious areas of interest is coaching and management. For some reason the number of black people who actually get a chance in this area is very small.

"All we are asking for is an interview. But the more times people attend interviews, the greater the likelihood of them eventually getting a job.

"This has to be a good thing because it broadens panel of potential managers and coaches clubs are selecting from and opens up the possibility of greater experience.

"That should be what every club is looking for anyway."

The Rooney Rule was implemented in the US in 2003 and the Detroit Lions were one club fined $200,000 for not interviewing an African-American for their vacant head coach position




Personally i'm of the ilk if you're good enough for a job then you will be interviewed for it, and i think thats the case in football (in this country) too. Yes there are successful black managers around the world, but I don't think it they're not hired by english clubs due to some inherent racism
 
There is a lack of black managers, but there was also a lack of black players 20 years ago, and most managers nowadays played in that era or before. I think in time the number of managers will increase to match the number of players.
 
this is really going to be difficult to implement. don't america have this with 'affirmation action'?
the problem is football is a success driven field therefore you are going to go with a proven track record so it becomes a catch 22 situation as how can you gain experience if no one will hire you as you have no experience? also if you get the job and fail then you'll find it hard to get another job.

going to be very difficult to implement.
 
http://www.kickitout.org/513.php

[quote author=Daily Telegraph]
The Daily Telegraph have published a special report on the obstacles facing black managers in English football.

Paul Ince's MK Dons side are currently on course for promotion to League One, but Ince is one of only two black managers in the football league, and concerns are growing over the obstacles facing black players hoping to enter management.

From The Daily Telegraph:
As Paul Ince guided Milton Keynes Dons to the top of the Division Two table on Monday night with victory at Chesterfield, a new generation of retired black footballers looked on with a mixture of respect and hope.

The respect came at seeing one of the finest black English players of recent times continue his excellent start to management, while the hope was wrapped up in the knowledge that Ince could transform the landscape of British football.

If he succeeds, there is the possibility that there will never be a repeat of the 'lost' generation of trailblazing black players, men like John Barnes, Cyrille Regis, Viv Anderson and Luther Blissett, whose coaching careers have been limited by few opportunities.

Decisive
"Paul Ince will be decisive for many black managers," said Piara Powar, Kick It Out's director. "Many of them may have been put off before but, if he's given a fair crack of the whip, they'll be encouraged."

Ince, England's first black captain, cannot understand why so few former black players have made their mark in management. "Other countries have moved on, yet we seem to have our heads stuck in the sand," he said. "Maybe I'm the one now to take it on and be that first Premier League manager."

Ince created his own opening in football management by taking a considerable risk in accepting the Macclesfield job at a time when they were seven points adrift at the bottom of Division Two and looked certain to be relegated from the Football League.

Brave
"I thought Paul Ince was bonkers to take Macclesfield, but for Paul it might have been the only way," Anderson said. "It was brave and I take my hat off to him."

It is difficult, though, not to compare the path taken by Ince with his playing contemporaries at Manchester United, Liverpool and England. Roy Keane, Mark Hughes, Gareth Southgate, Gary McAllister, Bryan Robson and Stuart Pearce had the chance to start from a higher position in the pyramid.

"There's prejudice every which way. The majority of owners are white, so it stands to reason," said the former Stockport manager and England midfielder Carlton Palmer. "Life is harder if you're black - you have to be better than the other people around you." Aside from the better known examples, those black managers who have achieved success have tended to stay in the lower divisions.

Glass ceiling
Macclesfield's Keith Alexander has a good record, but remains at a Division Two club. Former Torquay manager Leroy Rosenior was expected to rapidly climb the ladder after achieving initial success but, at the age of 43, he is now working in the media.

"Chairmen tend to go for people they know," he said. "Relationships are built on first reactions. Some chairmen may find it more difficult to relate to black people. I think it's subconscious and I've talked before about a glass ceiling for black managers.

"We played some great football, got promoted on a shoestring, but it didn't happen for me. There's nothing you can do about outside influences."

Positive steps
Amid the depressing statistics and testimonies, positive steps are being taken. The FA have made high-profile coaching appointments, including Hope Powell as the manager of the England women's team and Noel Blake as FA national coach. The FA's skills programme also has better representation, with 15 per cent of coaches coming from ethnic minorities, while clubs in the Football League have come together to form an advisory group on diversity.

The Professional Footballers' Association have a black coaches forum and point to a rise in the number of black players gaining coaching qualifications, either the Uefa A and Pro-Licence or the certificate in applied management at Warwick University. "The issue is on the agenda and we want to make sure there is a level playing field," Bobby Barnes, the PFA assistant chief executive, said.

There has been talk of copying the 'Rooney rule' in American football, which requires teams in the NFL to interview minority candidates for head coach positions, though the PFA oppose any form of positive discrimination.

Remove obstacles
"There is a multi-agency approach - we want to remove obstacles," said Brendon Batson, a consultant to the FA. "The numbers don't lie - you feel there's a lack of trust. But, in the same way we battled through as players, we have to overcome this."

Ultimately the power to make change rests in club boardrooms. The real test will be whether there is a significant increase in the number of black managers. "It's not enough just to win the argument," Garth Crooks said, "we must also win hearts and minds."

The Telegraph also published two case studies of black ex-professional players, Luther Blissett and Viv Anderson, who came up against many difficulties when trying to take their first steps in management.

Case Study 1 - Luther Blissett
Luther Blissett was one of the first black footballers to play in Italy, but his hopes of a ground-breaking impact in management were not realised. As a player, he gained experience abroad, played in every division of the Football League, became an England international and has since completed his coaching qualifications. To date, his only coaching jobs in the Football Leagues were spells at York City and Watford.

"I got my qualifications, started applying for jobs and didn't get interviews. I started applying at 30 and I'm now in my early 50s. People say persevere, but how long can you persevere? I started doing coaching at 17 and always knew that I wanted to stay in the game and contribute something. But eventually, you think, 'Shall I do this forever?' Attitudes have changed in many areas, but in terms of the boardroom and the organisation, there is often not the trust and belief that they can do that job. There's a perception that they can't do things. Some chairmen possibly don't want a black person to be the face of their club. They run the club and make their decisions.

"Statistics say it's getting more difficult. There are fewer English managers in the Premier League, they're taking more jobs in the Championship and it all has a knock-on effect.There needs to be more transparency. You apply for a job in football and you don't know the criteria. It's down to the personal choice of the chairman. All you want to know is that you've had a proper shout. I got the odd letter saying I didn't have the experience. That's the biggest load of rubbish. How do you get the experience if no one gives you a job?"

Case Study 2 - Viv Anderson
Viv Anderson made history when he became the first black player to represent England in 1978. The enormous progress that black players have made over the past three decades, however, has not been replicated in the dug-out.

Anderson's first job in coaching was as player-manager with Barnsley in 1993-94 and he kept them in what is now the Championship. He then moved to Middlesbrough where he spent seven years as assistant to Bryan Robson. In that time, Middlesbrough achieved two promotions and reached two League Cup and one FA Cup finals. Since leaving Middlesbrough in 2001, he has not had another job offer and now runs his own company. "The statistics are scary," Anderson said. "I'm disappointed but not surprised and it's an issue which needs to be addressed. I would say my CV is pretty good, but I've just got on with doing my own thing.

"There's an unconscious racism. Black kids want role models. There were successful black players and the next thing is to have successful black managers. At the moment, they're not getting the opportunity. You get to a level and there are barriers in front of you. It used to be thought that black players were flair players - that you couldn't be in a position of responsibility. They said we couldn't play in the cold, but I used to wear short sleeves and my job was to defend - that was what Brian Clough told me to do. I think there is a preconception now that they can't perform in the boardroom."

So is there a stereotype of black players being good athletes, but perhaps not such good thinkers? "Exactly right," said Anderson
[/quote]

I'm not in favour of affirmative action, generally. I tend to believe that the cream rises to the top, although I'm quite surprised no one decent took a punt on Keith Alexander.
 
This Rooney Rule is inherently racist in itself though, so it's counter intuitive. What good is it going to do? I don't for a second believe there is racism in management, in that a premier league club says ("We're not having him, he's not Aryan &quot😉 it's more there isn't many coloured managers coming through, maybe that's due to racism at the grass roots of football but the Rooney rule would have no affect on this, then again maybe due to the point Gerry attested to. Also that and Paul Ince never shutting up about how great he is because he's such a persecuted minority.
 
I really don't think its a good idea. I don't understand how forcing a club to interview a black manager means that anything will improve. In the case of us we wanted dalglish, having to interview ince/barnes/rijkaard etc would prove moot, because the fans and board WANTED kenny.

It won't change a thing, and fundamentally, why should it?

Houghton was a fine manager for newcastle and they sacked him (bizarrely) but he wasn't out of a decent job for long. He might get Brum promoted and bobs your uncle. The likes of ince/barnes etc, were shite at the highest level so fuck em. Lower league teams might end up competing for managers to interview BECAUSE they're black, not because they're good enough. Its fuckign stupid and in my eyes is just as prejudiced as what we have now

Surely the best thing to do would be from grass roots? make kids interested in management and coaching rather than trying to force clubs to find people who have minimal or no coaching experience
 
How many candidates are there?

I can think of only a handful and that's including looking at assistant managers, coaches etc.

Are there dozens of black managers just waiting for a chance?
 
Problem being if you start this rule for 1, then you open it for others

First we implement the rule saying black managers have to be interviewed

Then it's people with a disability

then its aliens

Eventually there will be a room looking like the waiting room in beetlejuice, all vying for the same position, of which only 2 are debatably qualified for
 
What's the point in forcing clubs to interview people they don't want to interview anyway, surely if they don't want them, they don't want them.

Or will it get to the stage where you're forced to hire black people? I'm sorry Mr Glazer, but seen as every other club in the league has a white manager, you can't hire Jose Mourinho, you have to take Paul Parker.
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46798.msg1395850#msg1395850 date=1315476926]
Problem being if you start this rule for 1, then you open it for others

First we implement the rule saying black managers have to be interviewed

Then it's people with a disability

then its aliens

Eventually there will be a room looking like the waiting room in beetlejuice, all vying for the same position, of which only 2 are debatably qualified for
[/quote]

I'm waiting for equal oppertunties for superheroes. I'm still hoping for spider-man to take over when kenny eventually steps down.
 
Surely when it comes to wanting success for your club, or in any walk of life, it's the best person for the job regardless of race or nationality or anything else. Just as it is with players.


regards
 
Not really interested. Could someone post the latest on Gerrard, Adam and Johnson from the official.

Thanks
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46798.msg1395850#msg1395850 date=1315476926]
Problem being if you start this rule for 1, then you open it for others

First we implement the rule saying black managers have to be interviewed

Then it's people with a disability

then its aliens

Eventually there will be a room looking like the waiting room in beetlejuice, all vying for the same position, of which only 2 are debatably qualified for
[/quote]

I don't understand why interviewing an Alien or indeed a person with a disability would be problematic.
 
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=46798.msg1395863#msg1395863 date=1315478672]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46798.msg1395850#msg1395850 date=1315476926]
Problem being if you start this rule for 1, then you open it for others

First we implement the rule saying black managers have to be interviewed

Then it's people with a disability

then its aliens

Eventually there will be a room looking like the waiting room in beetlejuice, all vying for the same position, of which only 2 are debatably qualified for
[/quote]

I don't understand why interviewing an Alien or indeed a person with a disability would be problematic.
[/quote]

An alien, of any sort, might not get a work permit

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46798.msg1395858#msg1395858 date=1315478010]
Surely when it comes to wanting success for your club, or in any walk of life, it's the best person for the job regardless of race or nationality or anything else. Just as it is with players.


regards
[/quote]

that's true but there has to be opportunities to get on the ladder. for example, you said 'just as it is with players' but young players are blooded into first team.
 
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46798.msg1395867#msg1395867 date=1315479040]
Fight the power.
[/quote]

elvis was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me, the racist sucker was simple and plain. mother fuck him and john wayne!!
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=46798.msg1395837#msg1395837 date=1315475994]
There is a lack of black managers, but there was also a lack of black players 20 years ago, and most managers nowadays played in that era or before. I think in time the number of managers will increase to match the number of players.
[/quote]

What the man said ^^^ .

However you can't force a club to hire a black manager so it will always come down to the owner's/chairman's'board's choice. That said it seems pretty awful that Viv Anderson, in particular, didn't kick on given the experience and success Middlesbro' had.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=46798.msg1395868#msg1395868 date=1315479087]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46798.msg1395858#msg1395858 date=1315478010]
Surely when it comes to wanting success for your club, or in any walk of life, it's the best person for the job regardless of race or nationality or anything else. Just as it is with players.


regards
[/quote]

that's true but there has to be opportunities to get on the ladder. for example, you said 'just as it is with players' but young players are blooded into first team.
[/quote]

You're coming out with some pretty special stuff lately. Would you agree with having 3 young black players on the bench at all times?

It's an absolute farce.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=46798.msg1395873#msg1395873 date=1315479466]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=46798.msg1395868#msg1395868 date=1315479087]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46798.msg1395858#msg1395858 date=1315478010]
Surely when it comes to wanting success for your club, or in any walk of life, it's the best person for the job regardless of race or nationality or anything else. Just as it is with players.


regards
[/quote]

that's true but there has to be opportunities to get on the ladder. for example, you said 'just as it is with players' but young players are blooded into first team.
[/quote]

You're coming out with some pretty special stuff lately. Would you agree with having 3 young black players on the bench at all times?

It's an absolute farce.
[/quote]

the truth is I'm looking at both sides of the argument and I'm seeing where there is a soloution and I don't see a solution in the short term, which is a shame.
 
Forcing teams to interview managers based on anything other than ability will do nothing but make matters worse, and its actually a thinly veiled insult to all clubs as in itself it is suggesting that the reason they do not interview black managers now is because they are black.

Look at it like this - a club had a vacancy and were considering 2 candidates. Candidate A is a black guy, candidate B is a white guy. They are actually not doing this to comply with a rule. They are doing it because they actually rate both managers.

If they give the job to Candidate B everyone assumes that Candidate A was only there to make up the numbers. Doesn't do a great deal for his reputation does it?

If they give the job to Candidate A - or worse still Candidate B pulls out, leaving only one person in the running (a man they want, remember), people will assume he got the job based on a rule rather than his ability. Not actually the case but you can see how people would see it. Will that man get the respect of the fans and the players? And what happens if things start going wrong?
 
Why not just say there aren't enough women managing, you have to interview them too.

It would come under positive discrimination, which is still discrimination. It's wrong either way. The only people that should be interviewed are the best ones for the job regardless of sex or race.
 
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46798.msg1395846#msg1395846 date=1315476658]
I think they should do this for 100m sprinters too.
[/quote]

Am I wrong to chuckle at this?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=46798.msg1395869#msg1395869 date=1315479150]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46798.msg1395867#msg1395867 date=1315479040]
Fight the power.
[/quote]

elvis was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me, the racist sucker was simple and plain. mother fuck him and john wayne!!
[/quote]
Dont worry be happy was the number jam, damn if I say it u can slap me right here.
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46798.msg1395833#msg1395833 date=1315475450]
Thoughts?

Personally i'm of the ilk if you're good enough for a job then you will be interviewed for it, and i think thats the case in football (in this country) too. Yes there are successful black managers around the world, but I don't think it they're not hired by english clubs due to some inherent racism
[/quote]

I'm with you on this. We also can't get in a situation where a club is worried to sack a non-performing manager because he is black.

But the question as to why there are so few black managers is valid. As is the question as to why there are pretty much no top level footballers or Asian sub continent origin in this country.
 
How many white former players are not managers? The vast majority of them.

The fact is that there haven't been as many black players in English football as there have white players. As has been suggested already it could well be the case in the future that more black players become managers.

There are actually a few who are either managers or coaches but then there are others who are involved in the media or are doing something completely different, as is the case with white former players.
 
Also, why take the plunge on management when you can be paid loads as a pundit?

Desailly, seedorf (still playing but has done punditry) , wright, Barnes (now), as well as others (I'm sure) moved into punditry. Clever men who might have made it as managers decided to simply relax after their playing years and talk about the game they love
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=46798.msg1395890#msg1395890 date=1315481253]
Can anyone see any current black Prem players making good managers?
[/quote]

Not really current, but I always thought I could see either Patrick Vieira or Sol Campbell as a manager.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom