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How big a loss is Coutinho ?

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Rosco

Worse than Brendan
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Have we lost a great player who we are significantly worse off without ?

Or was he just our fourth most important player and the others can simply pick up the slack ?

The Guardian had an article backed up my metrics as to why we might not miss him much, they said the following:

The other question is how much Coutinho’s loss might affect Liverpool. Much, inevitably, will depend on whether they invest wisely, particularly on a new goalkeeper and better defenders. However Mark Taylor, a football analyst who works with a number of British clubs, believes the deal is already a good one for Liverpool.
His numbers suggest that Klopp’s side have actually created slightly better chances when Coutinho has not been in the side this season compared with when he has. “It’s a great deal for Liverpool,” he adds. “They haven’t missed a beat when Coutinho has not been playing. Sadio Mané takes up the slack.”


Yet whether the Brazilian is one of the top half dozen or so players in world football is harder to demonstrate. One way to measure attacking ability, for instance, is to look at a player’s goals and assists per 90 minutes (G+A per 90). Coutinho averages 0.88 G+A per 90 in the Premier League since the start of 2016-17, which ranks him 31st in Europe’s five major leagues. Messi, predictably, is way out in front on 1.42, with Kylian Mbappé second. Incidentally Liverpool’s Mohamed Salah is 14th with 1.06. By this measure Coutinho is very good but not exceptional.

Coutinho also scores well on another metric – chances created per match. In the past 18 months he has averaged an impressive 2.81 chances per 90 minutes in the Premier League – the 22nd best in Europe’s major leagues – although he does still rank behind Cesc Fàbregas (4.2), Mesut Özil (3.38), Kevin De Bruyne (3.25) and even Christian Eriksen (2.93).
 
Well... the slack was kind of left lying around like dirty underwear in a student apartment rather than picked up against Swansea.
 
He's a massive loss. I'd think that was undeniable. But as Brizzle says, he was no guarantee for us to unlock defensive teams like Swansea - he sloped off after similar games just like the players did on Monday, and he got drawn into that horrible routine of wild long shots over the bar and repeated attempts at through balls that were fired in straight at defenders' legs.
 
There were times when he had no impact on that type of game; there were other times (plenty) when he did.
If we don't replace him, every time we fail to respond accordingly in that type of game, letting him go mid-season will come up as an excuse. And so it should.
I get that he might have downed tools, personally, I think he would have. However, we've had ages for plan for his leaving and done nothing.
I just find it a gamble we didn't need to to take, letting him go and not acting. If we miss top 4 from hereon in, questions will, and should, be asked.
 
He's a loss because he was a very good player, but I worry there will be a rewriting of history to "we always won when he played because he was as good as zico"

He played as many shite games as he did excellent ones. The rest he was average.

The most damning issue is the lack of foresight, or the belief were good enough without. We will miss that little bit of magic that could happen.
 
Interesting that when an analyst posts similar stats showing Coutinho maybe a great player, but not necessarily indisposable, to those I posted recently it now becomes a valid argument. 😉

.... it's not supported by stats which actually show the opposite. Now of course there are many other factors which may/do come into play but I'm not so sure that if we buy sensibly we won't have a better team than we did with the defensively weak Coutinho.

Goals for and against (with and without Coutinho) are very similar, off the top of my head without going to find the stats I posted earlier, about 2.75 goals per match with him and 2.50 without him playing. Goals against is strangely identical at 1.17 per match.


The more important stats though are those of WDL. Without him (9-3-1) with him (8-9-1) this season. And as I pointed out earlier a lot of the teams goals (and his) have come in our big wins when we'd almost certainly have won without him anyway (Spartak 7-0, Maribor 7-0, Brighton 5-1, Swansea 5-0 and Bournemouth 4-0).

I'd also add that for me our 3 most influential players that we have at this stage are 1) Salah 2) Firmino and 3) VVD. Whilst obviously the loss of Coutinho weakens us I'll not get my knickers in a twist on it derailing our season until, come the end of January, I see what we've done with the Coutinho money.
 
Weren't there similar stats when everyone shit it coz Gerrard was going to Chelsea? Yeah, coz like, we'd have won trophies without Gerrard.
 
Weren't there similar stats when everyone shit it coz Gerrard was going to Chelsea? Yeah, coz like, we'd have won trophies without Gerrard.
No. Well, unless you can find them, it's just wild speculation NOT supported by stats 😉
 
It's being over-complicated really. You're more likely to win, the better players you have. We've lost one of our best players (if not our best player), we've also lost a match winner and our main creative source from midfield. Without that and without replacing him we're a lesser team.

There is no combination from Henderson, Can, Gini, Lallana and AOC that will be as creative as two of those three alongside Coutinho, so we're worse off. It doesn't even come into question. And if people want to say that it might make us defensively more stable in midfield, have a look at Monday again. We didn't score and we conceded a typical Liverpool soft goal.

As Larry said, it's fine saying he underperformed in alot of those games - Liverpool have for years now, and that's down to consistency, which is usually down to a lack of quality in certain areas, and by quality, I mean players who perform more regularly than most. ie, Not your Can's who average a good game in eight, or Gini who will be one of the best players on the park in a big game and then go missing until the next one. That's not something you can regularly pin on your Gerrard's and Coutinho's. If they drag us through a large percentage of games per season with match winning performances or key contributions, why does it then become just as much their responsibility if in a certain game they underperform? If they're dragging us through alot of games with their individual quality, then it's upto the rest to make up the shortfall on the few occasions they are underpar.

For example, Salah clearly not quite as sharp after his injury - you'd expect Mane or Firmino to take responsibility. That didn't happen. One of the midfield needed to take the initiative, but we ended up with frustrated centre halves carrying the ball through the midfield to try to force it themselves. That's what happens when you have inconsistent players. Others who also aren't good enough, try too hard, the whole thing becomes disjointed, we don't play our natural game and we fuck it up.

If Keita was the replacement, then we should have ensured a January deal was a certainty, or kept Coutinho until the Summer. Or had a replacement lined up, should Keita not be the direct alternative. As it is, Coutinho was sold either with no planning for immediately replacing him, or with some degree of arrogance and/or naivety that this side can cope for 4-5 months trying to stay in the top four while competing in two major cups. We don't have the quality in depth for that, and as said, we're one major injury away from potential catastrophe. Anyone who thinks we can go the rest of the season banking on sheer luck, is burying their head in the sand.
 
If Keita was the replacement, then we should have ensured a January deal was a certainty, or kept Coutinho until the Summer. Or had a replacement lined up, should Keita not be the direct alternative. As it is, Coutinho was sold either with no planning for immediately replacing him, or with some degree of arrogance and/or naivety that this side can cope for 4-5 months trying to stay in the top four while competing in two major cups. We don't have the quality in depth for that, and as said, we're one major injury away from potential catastrophe.

^ Quite simply this.
I love our team. I love our manager. But selling Coutinho without a plan is absolutely what we did, and it was fucking stupid.
 
Hard to quantify really..hes historically blown hot & cold, something he seems to risen above this season - So i'd not hold much weight against stats from x seasons ago.

He might not win us the game against against Swansea, or even guarantee a point but the liklihood of either occurring wouldve increased,significantly.

Possibly system/formation changes in such games could make up for any dips in indidividual quality (Hopefully)
 
Fair, it's just his are better than Phil's. I'm not saying that guarantees anything, but it's the first time I've even thought about it. I've been all in on Mahrez for ages. Still can't understand why he's not worth 40 if Phil is worth a 100 more, he's fucking boss.
 
Fair, it's just his are better than Phil's. I'm not saying that guarantees anything, but it's the first time I've even thought about it. I've been all in on Mahrez for ages. Still can't understand why he's not worth 40 if Phil is worth a 100 more, he's fucking boss.

I think Leicester want close to 100.
 
I think Leicester want close to 100.

In the summer the figure being bashed around was 40. Fair enough Coutinho was 'only' 115 way back then. And fair enough August's 40 is probably January's 100. But that's what was the figure Leicester were after when he said he wanted to leave at the time.
 
I am amazed Mahrez is still at Leicester. He's far too good to still be there.

I'd love him in our side, every time I watch him for them I think he looks like he should be playing for us, he's like a slightly worse version of Salah, but so was Salah before Klopp gave him a hug boost.
 
In the summer the figure being bashed around was 40. Fair enough Coutinho was 'only' 115 way back then. And fair enough August's 40 is probably January's 100. But that's what was the figure Leicester were after when he said he wanted to leave at the time.
I dunno how official that number is. I think their manager made a statement along the lines that if Coutinho went for 140 they would want at least 100 for Mahrez.
 
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I think it's a huge loss and we are much weaker without him. He has stepped up his game this season and has been consistently very good, everytime he is on the ball we looked threatening. That and we have now lost the main provider to Firmino/Salah; that deft through/lofted balls that only Coutinho could pull off. He even managed to have more minutes on the pitch this term.

None of our current players could replace him if we are all being honest. There is no other like him in the world. Lallana doesn't even come close.
 
Here is my 2 pence on the matter:

1) I miss him because he provided those magical moments with great goals.

2) I miss him because having an international from Brazil with a high profile makes our club more attractive, do you guys remember when we had some key players as part of the Spanish International Team, or think back to the GH days and that 1-5 thrashing of Germany - all our players were scoring. It's a great feeling having top players from the top footballing nations. It also attracts other great players.

3) We will miss his creativity.

From the above the biggest loss is actually number (2), because I don't actually think he was that key to us - it's just that he shone a bit brighter than the others in the most dull games but I don't consider him the player that won us games consistently coz he was prior to the last few months one of those that was 'consistently' - inconsistent. I think we have gained some defensive stability with his departure, so to replace him we just need a little bit of creativity in the middle that can drive us forward when needed.

Those that say that we lost to Swansea because he was not there are deluded - we drew so many games and lost a few in those exact same scenario's with him in the team. The cutting edge of our team is Mane, and Salah.
 
The cunt played last night coming on as a sub for Iniesta. His leg didn’t snap. Cunt.

How important he was for us depends on who we get in. Should we get Mahrez/Lemar plus another midfielder who’d walk into our team then Coutinho won’t be missed. If we get a Downing and Charlie Adam type replacement then we’re fucked. The biggest loss is the timing. We need replacements sooner rather than later.
 
I don't even see how its even debatable. Its obvious losing coutinho is a big blow to the team. Yes he blew hot and cold, but no one in our squad offers the creativity that he gave us and no one in the club can take a free kick like he can.

Selling him was just plain stupid, but not having anyone lined up was just criminal. Klopp saying lallana can pick up the slack and take more responsibility is just being naive.
 
And to compound the point, City who are running away with the league, are buying a £57m defender today. Just to strengthen further. I'm sure their fans, while at the top of the league, aren't saying to themselves, "we've got this, we don't need anyone else". So why the fuck are ours saying it when we're on a knife edge in 4th place, when we've just lost our best player?

Ambition.
 
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