You better at least acknowledge me if you're going to steal my posts for it.
His reputation preceedes him!?
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You better at least acknowledge me if you're going to steal my posts for it.
Not when assistant referees earn 4 times as much in Spain and 3 times as much in Italy and Germany.
Part time officials in whats supposed to be the best league in the world isnt good enough.
The standard is low, and shite decisions will continue as long as it isnt adressed.
What diference will it make if they get paid £600 or £6000? If, as people say, the human nature of a referee results in him having preconceived ideas about a particular player, then I cant see more money making a difference.
And it certainly wont help him to see things better from a bad position.
Technology is available and until they start using it, the problems will continue
And it certainly wont help him to see things better from a bad position.
Technology is available and until they start using it, the problems will continue
I guess it's not about paying the existing guys more, it's that a higher quality of candidate should appear if the wages were higher, that and they should be full time too(to be honest, I had assumed they already were).
Technology to see if the ball has crossed the line will come soon with their hawk-eye thing. Thats normal, most other sports are already using it.
For the rest, it wont happen, and rightly so imo.
Players should be booked every time they open their big mouth or wave arms.
Then we'll talk a lot less about referees
For the rest, it wont happen, and rightly so imo.
Players should be booked every time they open their big mouth or wave arms.
Then we'll talk a lot less about referees
or dive?
Diving is a lot more difficult to confirm on the spot. I think diving should be dealt with after a game.
Haha , no i was a player and I had to pay every time i got a yellow for shouting at refs...after a while i stopped
Dive? of course, they do that already dont they?😉
The point I was making Gerry was that Le Chacal said there should be bookings for arm waving. Presumably if the ref was judging Suarez on the way he went to ground against utd then he must class it as a dive. And a dive is a booking offence.
Ah right. I kinda agree with him though. If people are doing that complaining stuff and are waving, I'd give them a booking. It should be made like rugby where the ref decides if he wants to talk to you, otherwise you just get on it with it.
Against Arsenal. Repeatedly.
I'm not into sticking the boot in but diving is clearly a part of his game. If he played for anyone else then pretty much everyone would be saying the same thing.
Kinda shoots your own post down though doesnt it... trust me when i tell you i would not swap ourt refs for Spanish ones not in a million years.... it aint money which makes you do your job better, 600£ or 6000£ its no fucking difference.
I would too.
But the waving thing we are talking about here is the supposed theatrical way Suarez went to ground in the incident. Not arm waving and complaining to the referee. People are saying its a penalty but the referee decides its Suarez so its a dive. Book him then!
Anyway I dont really care anymore, its not worth arguing about, and sometimes its very difficult to actually get your point across in the written word.
True, and especially when english is not your first language.
If the ref thought he was diving, he should have booked him yeah...
What irks me the most is in these situations when you think had the player stayed on his feet he would probably have scored, instead the twat prefers to fall and is not awarded a penalty and then complains. (Im not talking about Suarez there, just in general).
It doesnt and you're missing the point mate. The salary quoted was to show that if the Premier League paid the officials a full time salary, like the leagues mentioned, they would be able to focus on their job 100 %.
It doesnt matter how much they're paid as long as its enough for them to quit being teachers, policemen or electricians next to being a linesman in the best league in the world as a second job.
Full time would increase the quality and focus on the issues that need adressing.
? So ? My point still stands, having lived in Spain and watched the refs there i can assure you that the fact that they are or on more money (due to being professional?) certainly does not make them better in any way. The hoo-haa over our Lil Luis being ignored time and time again by refs when fouled in the box is absolutely nothing compared to the way the vast majority of Spanish fans think and talk about their referees, at first you think it just grumbling fans in the stand but when you watch it long enough it is truly shocking what happens there. I watched a lot of Levante last season and i can assure that often against the bigger teams the refs were bordering on scandalously biased.
Im happy for refs to get it wrong every now and then, without them being pros or not, as long as its not consistently wrong against a particular player which is what i do feel is happening right now with Suarez.
Im happy for refs to get it wrong every now and then, without them being pros or not, as long as its not consistently wrong against a particular player which is what i do feel is happening right now with Suarez.
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After I wrote my last piece, http://diminbeirut.typepad.com/my-bl...out-there.html, on Manchester United’s relationship with the FA, I was taken aback by the response I had.The post has gotten around 30,000 hits in the last 48 hours alone. I suggest to people who haven’t read it to jump to that post now as it gives a lot of background on what we will look at in this article.
As stated in my previous post, the fortunes of the institutions surrounding football in the UK will be negatively hit should any proof of corruption come out. It is naturally in their interest not to investigate the matter. In fact, the managers that have come out and questioned the refereeing selection process (Rafa Benitez, Andre Villas Boas) have been turned into laughing stocks by the English press corps.
So, investigate some more I did. And some of the stuff I found out surprised even me.
During United’s title winning 2010/11 season, they only lost 4 league games. I looked at who refereed those games and how long they then spent without being assigned Manchester United games as well their subsequent trend of behavior towards United.
Michael Oliver took charge of their first defeat, the February 2011 2-1 loss at Wolves. He was not given another Manchester United game to referee until December 2011. Since then, Oliver has had 2 United games.
United have won both, with Oliver refusing to give a clear Fulham penalty in the 1-0 United win late last season at Old Trafford; a game came right at the end of the title race. A few weeks ago, Oliver gave United a penalty for a shocking dive by Danny Welbeck in the home win against Wigan.
The second game United lost was away to Chelsea. Martin Atkinson was the referee then and some of his decisions incurred the wrath of Alex Ferguson. Atkinson was not given another United game to referee for an ENTIRE YEAR.
Atkinson was further punished with his decisions that went against United that day. He was not given a single premier league game to referee for a full month. Even worse, he was subsequently given 3 lower league games to referee that season- when he’d previously not officiated a single one that campaign.
It seems that Atkinson was given a clear message that day.
The 3rd United loss came at Anfield, where a Dirk Kuyt hat trick secured a 3-1 home win. The referee that day was Phil Dowd. He was criticized by Ferguson for not sending Jamie Carragher off. In the very next United game Dowd refereed, he gave them a penalty which secured a 1-1 draw at Blackburn and their 19th league title.
Giving United penalties in the very next game you referee them after having been criticized is a trend we’ll soon notice.
The final United loss of the 2010/11 season came at the Emirates, where Chris Foy refereed a 1-0 Arsenal win. It will come to no surprise to people to know that Foy was subsequently not assigned a United league game for, again, AN ENTIRE YEAR.
He did however referee 2 United games in the cups during that time. The first was in the Carling Cup against Crystal Palace. He awarded United a penalty. The second was at City in the FA Cup. United got a penalty and Vincent Kompany was sent off early in the game.
To resume, we’ve just analyzed what happened to the 4 referees that officiated United’s 4 league losses in the 2010/11 season. 2 of them were not given any more United league games for a full year (Atkinson and Foy), a third for 9 months (Oliver). 2 of those referees gave United penalties in the very next game (Foy and Dowd) they took charge of and one refused to give a blatant one to the opponents (Oliver). Martin Atkinson, was not given premier league games to officiate for an entire month and assigned to 3 lower league games.
I also looked at Mike Jones after prompting from the comments board. Jones refereed the 1-1 home draw with Newcastle last season and incorrectly awarded Demba Ba a penalty.
Subsequently, Jones was not given a single football game, at ANY level, to referee for an entire month. The next United game he was handed came a few months later, the 2-0 home win against Stoke which saw… You guessed it: 2 penalties awarded to Manchester United which, according to reports, were “very soft”.
How about Mark Halsey? Well, when he gave WBA a debatable penalty in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford in May 2005 it was his 5th United game that season. He then also went an ENTIRE YEAR without being given any United games to referee. From 5 games in a season to none for a year. His record since then? He’s refereed 11 Man Utd games which have seen 11 United wins: the latest coming at Anfield, where 3 controversial decisions went the away team’s way.
In terms of trends, considering what we discovered about Alan Wiley and Mark Clattenburg (whose record with no United games to referee now stands at 36 league games since he took charge of the 6-1 home loss to City), there’s enough to make you wonder what exactly is going on in the referee selection process. It also ties in perfectly with ex referee Jeff Winter's comments about The FA being reticent to assign United games to referees Ferguson has criticized in the past.
The whole world revolves around incentives and punishment. From a young age, kids are brought up that way. Positive and negative reinforcement are at the very core of child psychology. You can’t blame people who are well aware of the punishment awaiting them (through the form of demotions and suspension from future United games) if they’d rather go for the safe option of keeping Ferguson happy.
I don’t blame the referees.
The people I blame are the ones that are letting this happen. The media who have not uttered a peep or written a single article about this for 2 decades. The FA who run the game in this country and have allowed this situation to fester. The clubs who see no issue with having David Gill, United's CEO, on the board of the FA. And of course, the PGMOB: the people who regulate officiating in England.
The person at the head of the PGMOB and who is in charge of selecting which referee gets handed which game is Mike Riley, an ex professional referee who is most famous for giving a penalty for a clear dive by Wayne Rooney in the 2004 Man United 2-0 win against Arsenal which ended the Gunners 49 game unbeaten streak.
Riley was accused of pro United favoritism throughout his career. For younger readers, he’s my generation’s Howard Webb.
According to the Guardian’s research, which goes to back to the beginning of the 1997-98 season until 2004, “Riley refereed 23 United games in all competitions and gave 12 penalties for United in that time, but only three against them. And he has sent off five of United's opponents.
At Old Trafford, Riley's record is weighted even more heavily in favor of United: He gave 10 penalties in the 14 games he officiated to the home side, Manchester United.”
Riley’s bias was so suspected than when was awarded the Everton vs Man Utd FA Cup semi final to officiate in 2009, David Moyes actually called for an investigation on whether Riley was a United supporter.
This is the man who now decides which premier league games to assign to referees.
Add that to everything we’ve found out: the year long waits for referees who take charge of United losses to be given another United game to officiate, the penalties that are given to United in said referees next United games, the punishment for making mistakes that cost United points (Atkinson’s month long suspension from premier league games, Jones’ 1 month suspension from ALL PROFESSIONAL games), the comments from ex referee Jeff Winter (see my previous post), the fact that 18% of Howard Webb’s career penalties have gone to Manchester United,the retirement of Alain Wiley after being called unfit by Alex Ferguson and, of course, the presence of David Gill inside the FA and surely there’s enough there for some investigative journalist in the UK to actually look more into this.
If only to put the millions of football fans’ across the world’s minds at ease.
Because we could all be wrong and all of this may just be a set of freakish coincidences. Maybe English football is squeaky clean like they make us believe and the referee selection process is completely unbiased.
Maybe we’re just paranoid…
Or maybe not… Chris Foy failed to give Manchester United a penalty in their 3-2 loss to Spurs last Saturday. The PGMOB have not handed Foy a Premier League game to referee next weekend: instead, he will referee in League 2 for the first time in more than 4 years.
Mike Jones meanwhile, who missed a blatant penalty on Luis Suarez at Norwich, will take charge of West Brom vs QPR in the Premier League. Finally, Howard Webb (who sent off Jordi Gomez on Saturday; a red card today rescinded by the FA) will take charge of Newcastle’s home game against…Manchester United.
Why did Foy’s errors on Saturday lead to his demotion to the lowest professional league in England while Webb’s and Jones’ mistakes didn’t cost them?
I guess we all know the answer to that question…
After I wrote my last piece, http://diminbeirut.typepad.com/my-bl...out-there.html, on Manchester United’s relationship with the FA, I was taken aback by the response I had.The post has gotten around 30,000 hits in the last 48 hours alone. I suggest to people who haven’t read it to jump to that post now as it gives a lot of background on what we will look at in this article.
As stated in my previous post, the fortunes of the institutions surrounding football in the UK will be negatively hit should any proof of corruption come out. It is naturally in their interest not to investigate the matter. In fact, the managers that have come out and questioned the refereeing selection process (Rafa Benitez, Andre Villas Boas) have been turned into laughing stocks by the English press corps.
So, investigate some more I did. And some of the stuff I found out surprised even me.
During United’s title winning 2010/11 season, they only lost 4 league games. I looked at who refereed those games and how long they then spent without being assigned Manchester United games as well their subsequent trend of behavior towards United.
Michael Oliver took charge of their first defeat, the February 2011 2-1 loss at Wolves. He was not given another Manchester United game to referee until December 2011. Since then, Oliver has had 2 United games.
United have won both, with Oliver refusing to give a clear Fulham penalty in the 1-0 United win late last season at Old Trafford; a game came right at the end of the title race. A few weeks ago, Oliver gave United a penalty for a shocking dive by Danny Welbeck in the home win against Wigan.
The second game United lost was away to Chelsea. Martin Atkinson was the referee then and some of his decisions incurred the wrath of Alex Ferguson. Atkinson was not given another United game to referee for an ENTIRE YEAR.
Atkinson was further punished with his decisions that went against United that day. He was not given a single premier league game to referee for a full month. Even worse, he was subsequently given 3 lower league games to referee that season- when he’d previously not officiated a single one that campaign.
It seems that Atkinson was given a clear message that day.
The 3rd United loss came at Anfield, where a Dirk Kuyt hat trick secured a 3-1 home win. The referee that day was Phil Dowd. He was criticized by Ferguson for not sending Jamie Carragher off. In the very next United game Dowd refereed, he gave them a penalty which secured a 1-1 draw at Blackburn and their 19th league title.
Giving United penalties in the very next game you referee them after having been criticized is a trend we’ll soon notice.
The final United loss of the 2010/11 season came at the Emirates, where Chris Foy refereed a 1-0 Arsenal win. It will come to no surprise to people to know that Foy was subsequently not assigned a United league game for, again, AN ENTIRE YEAR.
He did however referee 2 United games in the cups during that time. The first was in the Carling Cup against Crystal Palace. He awarded United a penalty. The second was at City in the FA Cup. United got a penalty and Vincent Kompany was sent off early in the game.
To resume, we’ve just analyzed what happened to the 4 referees that officiated United’s 4 league losses in the 2010/11 season. 2 of them were not given any more United league games for a full year (Atkinson and Foy), a third for 9 months (Oliver). 2 of those referees gave United penalties in the very next game (Foy and Dowd) they took charge of and one refused to give a blatant one to the opponents (Oliver). Martin Atkinson, was not given premier league games to officiate for an entire month and assigned to 3 lower league games.
I also looked at Mike Jones after prompting from the comments board. Jones refereed the 1-1 home draw with Newcastle last season and incorrectly awarded Demba Ba a penalty.
Subsequently, Jones was not given a single football game, at ANY level, to referee for an entire month. The next United game he was handed came a few months later, the 2-0 home win against Stoke which saw… You guessed it: 2 penalties awarded to Manchester United which, according to reports, were “very soft”.
How about Mark Halsey? Well, when he gave WBA a debatable penalty in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford in May 2005 it was his 5th United game that season. He then also went an ENTIRE YEAR without being given any United games to referee. From 5 games in a season to none for a year. His record since then? He’s refereed 11 Man Utd games which have seen 11 United wins: the latest coming at Anfield, where 3 controversial decisions went the away team’s way.
In terms of trends, considering what we discovered about Alan Wiley and Mark Clattenburg (whose record with no United games to referee now stands at 36 league games since he took charge of the 6-1 home loss to City), there’s enough to make you wonder what exactly is going on in the referee selection process. It also ties in perfectly with ex referee Jeff Winter's comments about The FA being reticent to assign United games to referees Ferguson has criticized in the past.
The whole world revolves around incentives and punishment. From a young age, kids are brought up that way. Positive and negative reinforcement are at the very core of child psychology. You can’t blame people who are well aware of the punishment awaiting them (through the form of demotions and suspension from future United games) if they’d rather go for the safe option of keeping Ferguson happy.
I don’t blame the referees.
The people I blame are the ones that are letting this happen. The media who have not uttered a peep or written a single article about this for 2 decades. The FA who run the game in this country and have allowed this situation to fester. The clubs who see no issue with having David Gill, United's CEO, on the board of the FA. And of course, the PGMOB: the people who regulate officiating in England.
The person at the head of the PGMOB and who is in charge of selecting which referee gets handed which game is Mike Riley, an ex professional referee who is most famous for giving a penalty for a clear dive by Wayne Rooney in the 2004 Man United 2-0 win against Arsenal which ended the Gunners 49 game unbeaten streak.
Riley was accused of pro United favoritism throughout his career. For younger readers, he’s my generation’s Howard Webb.
According to the Guardian’s research, which goes to back to the beginning of the 1997-98 season until 2004, “Riley refereed 23 United games in all competitions and gave 12 penalties for United in that time, but only three against them. And he has sent off five of United's opponents.
At Old Trafford, Riley's record is weighted even more heavily in favor of United: He gave 10 penalties in the 14 games he officiated to the home side, Manchester United.”
Riley’s bias was so suspected than when was awarded the Everton vs Man Utd FA Cup semi final to officiate in 2009, David Moyes actually called for an investigation on whether Riley was a United supporter.
This is the man who now decides which premier league games to assign to referees.
Add that to everything we’ve found out: the year long waits for referees who take charge of United losses to be given another United game to officiate, the penalties that are given to United in said referees next United games, the punishment for making mistakes that cost United points (Atkinson’s month long suspension from premier league games, Jones’ 1 month suspension from ALL PROFESSIONAL games), the comments from ex referee Jeff Winter (see my previous post), the fact that 18% of Howard Webb’s career penalties have gone to Manchester United,the retirement of Alain Wiley after being called unfit by Alex Ferguson and, of course, the presence of David Gill inside the FA and surely there’s enough there for some investigative journalist in the UK to actually look more into this.
If only to put the millions of football fans’ across the world’s minds at ease.
Because we could all be wrong and all of this may just be a set of freakish coincidences. Maybe English football is squeaky clean like they make us believe and the referee selection process is completely unbiased.
Maybe we’re just paranoid…
Or maybe not… Chris Foy failed to give Manchester United a penalty in their 3-2 loss to Spurs last Saturday. The PGMOB have not handed Foy a Premier League game to referee next weekend: instead, he will referee in League 2 for the first time in more than 4 years.
Mike Jones meanwhile, who missed a blatant penalty on Luis Suarez at Norwich, will take charge of West Brom vs QPR in the Premier League. Finally, Howard Webb (who sent off Jordi Gomez on Saturday; a red card today rescinded by the FA) will take charge of Newcastle’s home game against…Manchester United.
Why did Foy’s errors on Saturday lead to his demotion to the lowest professional league in England while Webb’s and Jones’ mistakes didn’t cost them?
I guess we all know the answer to that question…
Tbh I dont really care if the refs in Spain are biased towards the big teams or if you dont think they're good enough. This argument is about assistant referees.
To increase the quality of the standard in the Premier League they have to become professional. If you can concentrate on being an assistant referee 100% instead of working 38 hours a week as a teacher aswell, you'll get better. They'll have time to work on the understanding and cooperation between the teams of 3 that work as a unit in each game.
You'll attract people who maybe have the talent but dont want to combine another job with being an
assistant referee.
Its a win win situation.
Hmm...it's it quite likely that a referee's next time referring a United game be a win for United? Given that they tend to win most of their matches? They are also going to get more penalties, given that they are in oppositions boxes more.
Having said that, I do think Ferguson is much better at getting decisions than we are.
Having said that, I do think Ferguson is much better at getting decisions than we are.
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