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Heskey

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[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962814#msg962814 date=1255573164]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36391.msg962811#msg962811 date=1255572685]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962802#msg962802 date=1255565721]
He isn't though.
[/quote]

Alright, he isn't shit, because there's a perception that he helps England play well because his lumbering figure accomplishing such staggering things as holding up play is a counterpoint to the numerous better players around him.

The fact that he was shit at Birmingham and contributed to their relegation, was meh at best at Wigan, Aston Villa's purchase of him contributed nothing to their faltering season, and now he is completely outclassed by John Carew, who can do everything he can do, better, simply doesn't enter into it.

I'm not even talking about goal scoring, I'm talking about his overall play. Of course I can't mention goal scoring, that'd be too primitive a statistic to bring to bear, the fact that a forward almost never scores a goal, I mean, an utterly hideous return, is outweighed by finer points.


[/quote]

All that, and Fabio 'shall I put my medals on the table?' Capello still prefers him to Defoe, Bent, Crouch, Owen, and Cole.

The mind boggles.
[/quote]

Just because Capello has thus far found it better to work with Heskey in fulfilling (at best adequately) a specific role that no one bar Crouch on your list offers massive competition on, doesn't mean he isn't shit. I also don't suspect he'll be the consistent starter you think he will.
 
[quote author=refugee link=topic=36391.msg962815#msg962815 date=1255573486]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962814#msg962814 date=1255573164]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36391.msg962811#msg962811 date=1255572685]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962802#msg962802 date=1255565721]
He isn't though.
[/quote]

Alright, he isn't shit, because there's a perception that he helps England play well because his lumbering figure accomplishing such staggering things as holding up play is a counterpoint to the numerous better players around him.

The fact that he was shit at Birmingham and contributed to their relegation, was meh at best at Wigan, Aston Villa's purchase of him contributed nothing to their faltering season, and now he is completely outclassed by John Carew, who can do everything he can do, better, simply doesn't enter into it.

I'm not even talking about goal scoring, I'm talking about his overall play. Of course I can't mention goal scoring, that'd be too primitive a statistic to bring to bear, the fact that a forward almost never scores a goal, I mean, an utterly hideous return, is outweighed by finer points.


[/quote]

All that, and Fabio 'shall I put my medals on the table?' Capello still prefers him to Defoe, Bent, Crouch, Owen, and Cole.

The mind boggles.
[/quote]

I love how high and mighty you get over people that don't rate Heskey, especially since he doesn't score many goals. Carlton Cole has had the best year of his career and you tried to write him off, just because he didn't score many goals
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=29648.msg752500#msg752500
[/quote]

Well, Heskey's got a touch more to show for his career than Carlton Cole.

Besides, I think I stated since that post that Cole's done a lot towards proving me wrong. And I wasn't the only one to have that opinion of him at the time.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962819#msg962819 date=1255573974]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=36391.msg962815#msg962815 date=1255573486]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962814#msg962814 date=1255573164]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36391.msg962811#msg962811 date=1255572685]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962802#msg962802 date=1255565721]
He isn't though.
[/quote]

Alright, he isn't shit, because there's a perception that he helps England play well because his lumbering figure accomplishing such staggering things as holding up play is a counterpoint to the numerous better players around him.

The fact that he was shit at Birmingham and contributed to their relegation, was meh at best at Wigan, Aston Villa's purchase of him contributed nothing to their faltering season, and now he is completely outclassed by John Carew, who can do everything he can do, better, simply doesn't enter into it.

I'm not even talking about goal scoring, I'm talking about his overall play. Of course I can't mention goal scoring, that'd be too primitive a statistic to bring to bear, the fact that a forward almost never scores a goal, I mean, an utterly hideous return, is outweighed by finer points.


[/quote]

All that, and Fabio 'shall I put my medals on the table?' Capello still prefers him to Defoe, Bent, Crouch, Owen, and Cole.

The mind boggles.
[/quote]

I love how high and mighty you get over people that don't rate Heskey, especially since he doesn't score many goals. Carlton Cole has had the best year of his career and you tried to write him off, just because he didn't score many goals
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=29648.msg752500#msg752500
[/quote]

Well, Heskey's got a touch more to show for his career than Carlton Cole.

Besides, I think I stated since that post that Cole's done a lot towards proving me wrong. And I wasn't the only one to have that opinion of him at the time.
[/quote]

Vladimir Smicer has got more to show for his career than Le Tissier and I know who I would rather have in my team

I only remember that post because Cole was excellent that weekend (the first ever time hes impressed me) and you picked that weekend to attack him. I also don't hate Heskey, I distinctly remember the match he played for England against Argentina where he played as a lone striker and was amazing. However I also remember lots of games where he started for us and was complete shit for us, whilst Fowler was left on the bench and I despise him for that. I know it is irrational as Ged picked the team but Fowler was twice the player that Heskey was even at that stage of his career. Heskey has a lot of ability but he his inclusion in the England team shouldn't be as clear cut as you make it out to be
 
[quote author=refugee link=topic=36391.msg962820#msg962820 date=1255574575]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962819#msg962819 date=1255573974]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=36391.msg962815#msg962815 date=1255573486]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962814#msg962814 date=1255573164]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36391.msg962811#msg962811 date=1255572685]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962802#msg962802 date=1255565721]
He isn't though.
[/quote]

Alright, he isn't shit, because there's a perception that he helps England play well because his lumbering figure accomplishing such staggering things as holding up play is a counterpoint to the numerous better players around him.

The fact that he was shit at Birmingham and contributed to their relegation, was meh at best at Wigan, Aston Villa's purchase of him contributed nothing to their faltering season, and now he is completely outclassed by John Carew, who can do everything he can do, better, simply doesn't enter into it.

I'm not even talking about goal scoring, I'm talking about his overall play. Of course I can't mention goal scoring, that'd be too primitive a statistic to bring to bear, the fact that a forward almost never scores a goal, I mean, an utterly hideous return, is outweighed by finer points.


[/quote]

All that, and Fabio 'shall I put my medals on the table?' Capello still prefers him to Defoe, Bent, Crouch, Owen, and Cole.

The mind boggles.
[/quote]

I love how high and mighty you get over people that don't rate Heskey, especially since he doesn't score many goals. Carlton Cole has had the best year of his career and you tried to write him off, just because he didn't score many goals
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=29648.msg752500#msg752500
[/quote]

Well, Heskey's got a touch more to show for his career than Carlton Cole.

Besides, I think I stated since that post that Cole's done a lot towards proving me wrong. And I wasn't the only one to have that opinion of him at the time.
[/quote]

Vladimir Smicer has got more to show for his career than Le Tissier and I know who I would rather have in my team

I only remember that post because Cole was excellent that weekend (the first ever time hes impressed me) and you picked that weekend to attack him. I also don't hate Heskey, I distinctly remember the match he played for England against Argentina where he played as a lone striker and was amazing. However I also remember lots of games where he started for us and was complete shit for us, whilst Fowler was left on the bench and I despise him for that. I know it is irrational as Ged picked the team but Fowler was twice the player that Heskey was even at that stage of his career. Heskey has a lot of ability but he his inclusion in the England team shouldn't be as clear cut as you make it out to be
[/quote]

All fair points refugee, and yes - it seems Cole's got a lot of potential about him. If he can get fit and stay fit, he could do very well.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36391.msg962822#msg962822 date=1255574855]
All fair points refugee, and yes - it seems Cole's got a lot of potential about him. If he can get fit and stay fit, he could do very well.
[/quote]

I completely agree, but he is a bit like Heskey in that he needs constant positive reinforcement so his career will largely depend on his managers.
 
This argument about Crouch has annoyed the fuck out of me for years.

When he was here and struggling to score, all we got was 'strikers score goals'. Now Heskey is deemed better than him?? Give me a break.

Crouch is technically better and better at scoring goals, his goals to games ratio over the past couple of years at domestic and International level is excellent, and you only have to watch the kind of goals he scores: Headers, tap-ins, outrageous goals (the kind you want to see from top players).

Heskey is big, mobile and built like a heavy weight boxer. Yeah he's effective in allowing others to play, but that doesn't make him a good 'footballer' it makes him a hugely effective option, but one with little end product of his own in terms of genuine direct threat.

If that makes him a better 'footballer' than I despair. Once again Crouch is being given a massive disservice, he comes in, scores more goals than Heskey has scored since his return to the England fold and is STILL being compared unfavourably to one of the biggest annoyances in English football. Heskey is a nice lad and all, but he's still got the same issues now that have dogged his career: He's a striker that doesn't score goals and is hampered by his own self confidence.

Crouch is the contrary.
 
That's all true, Mark, but Rooney is key to this as he's the guaranteed starter up front. Get him playing to his peak and he's a player who can turn the tournament in our favour.

I don't think I've ever seen Rooney play so well alongside Crouch.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg962846#msg962846 date=1255589701]
This argument about Crouch has annoyed the fuck out of me for years.

When he was here and struggling to score, all we got was 'strikers score goals'. Now Heskey is deemed better than him?? Give me a break.

Crouch is technically better and better at scoring goals, his goals to games ratio over the past couple of years at domestic and International level is excellent, and you only have to watch the kind of goals he scores: Headers, tap-ins, outrageous goals (the kind you want to see from top players).

Heskey is big, mobile and built like a heavy weight boxer. Yeah he's effective in allowing others to play, but that doesn't make him a good 'footballer' it makes him a hugely effective option, but one with little end product of his own in terms of genuine direct threat.

If that makes him a better 'footballer' than I despair. Once again Crouch is being given a massive disservice, he comes in, scores more goals than Heskey has scored since his return to the England fold and is STILL being compared unfavourably to one of the biggest annoyances in English football. Heskey is a nice lad and all, but he's still got the same issues now that have dogged his career: He's a striker that doesn't score goals and is hampered by his own self confidence.

Crouch is the contrary.


[/quote]

mark the bottom line is england play better with heskey up front than crouch. when crouch is up front the defense all but bypass the midfield. england's best pefromances have come with heskey in the team. if the be all and end all were goals capello would have recalled owen long before now.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36391.msg962937#msg962937 date=1255598224]
That's all true, Mark, but Rooney is key to this as he's the guaranteed starter up front. Get him playing to his peak and he's a player who can turn the tournament in our favour.

I don't think I've ever seen Rooney play so well alongside Crouch.
[/quote]

Rooney, gerrard and lampard all flattered to deceive under previous regimes because they all wanted to occupy the same area of the pitch. Capello has found a way of accomodading all three and its worked well, I'm not gonna buy the main reason for rooneys upturn in form as being largely down to heskey, its mostly down to capello as he's managed to get the most from three players who'd previously looked at odds with one another.

Granted heskey is more mobile and has led the line unselfishly well, but I'm not buying this bollocks that because he suits capello's system better (allegedly) than crouch, that it therefore makes him the better player. The lad is by and large these days something of a national joke, despite his unselfish play.

The Crouch bashers will have to forgive me for going for the player who's provides more than just a bit of braun and hold up play. If any other major country had a player with his record leading the line, they'd be getting treated a lot less kindly.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg962968#msg962968 date=1255601338]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36391.msg962937#msg962937 date=1255598224]
That's all true, Mark, but Rooney is key to this as he's the guaranteed starter up front. Get him playing to his peak and he's a player who can turn the tournament in our favour.

I don't think I've ever seen Rooney play so well alongside Crouch.
[/quote]

Rooney, gerrard and lampard all flattered to deceive under previous regimes because they all wanted to occupy the same area of the pitch. Capello has found a way of accomodading all three and its worked well, I'm not gonna buy the main reason for rooneys upturn in form as being largely down to heskey, its mostly down to capello as he's managed to get the most from three players who'd previously looked at odds with one another.

Granted heskey is more mobile and has led the line unselfishly well, but I'm not buying this bollocks that because he suits capello's system better (allegedly) than crouch, that it therefore makes him the better player. The lad is by and large these days something of a national joke, despite his unselfish play.

The Crouch bashers will have to forgive me for going for the player who's provides more than just a bit of braun and hold up play. If any other major country had a player with his record leading the line, they'd be getting treated a lot less kindly.
[/quote]

I just go by the evidence of my own eyes, which is england have improved the major factor of that is obviously a new manager but I also take into account heskey being recalled. would there have been such an upturn in peformances with crouch up front rather than heskey? we'll never know will we?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36391.msg962946#msg962946 date=1255598591]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg962846#msg962846 date=1255589701]
This argument about Crouch has annoyed the fuck out of me for years.

When he was here and struggling to score, all we got was 'strikers score goals'. Now Heskey is deemed better than him?? Give me a break.

Crouch is technically better and better at scoring goals, his goals to games ratio over the past couple of years at domestic and International level is excellent, and you only have to watch the kind of goals he scores: Headers, tap-ins, outrageous goals (the kind you want to see from top players).

Heskey is big, mobile and built like a heavy weight boxer. Yeah he's effective in allowing others to play, but that doesn't make him a good 'footballer' it makes him a hugely effective option, but one with little end product of his own in terms of genuine direct threat.

If that makes him a better 'footballer' than I despair. Once again Crouch is being given a massive disservice, he comes in, scores more goals than Heskey has scored since his return to the England fold and is STILL being compared unfavourably to one of the biggest annoyances in English football. Heskey is a nice lad and all, but he's still got the same issues now that have dogged his career: He's a striker that doesn't score goals and is hampered by his own self confidence.

Crouch is the contrary.


[/quote]

mark the bottom line is england play better with heskey up front than crouch. when crouch is up front the defense all but bypass the midfield. england's best pefromances have come with heskey in the team. if the be all and end all were goals capello would have recalled owen long before now.
[/quote]

That happens with Heskey occasionally too, it's down to the manager to prevent the team from doing so. I never understood the reasoning behind that anyway with Crouch, given he's much better on the deck than using his head.

Shades of November 05 here anyway. The same posters back then were proclaiming how much of a 'disgrace' it was to have a centre forward who couldn't score. He went on to have an excellent record in an otherwise underused spell and had a great International record too. He also helped contribute to the way in which we started using Stevie differently and getting more from him in the process and continues to come in and provide a good option (and goals) for his country too.

Meanwhile Heskey gets the plaudits for 'holding the ball up well' and helping World Class striker Wayne Rooney to start scoring goals. Goals from our centre forward it seems, in this new breed of thinking, revolutionised from 3 years ago, no longer an issue for the player leading the line for one of the World Cup hopefuls.

Love it.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg962983#msg962983 date=1255603154]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36391.msg962946#msg962946 date=1255598591]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg962846#msg962846 date=1255589701]
This argument about Crouch has annoyed the fuck out of me for years.

When he was here and struggling to score, all we got was 'strikers score goals'. Now Heskey is deemed better than him?? Give me a break.

Crouch is technically better and better at scoring goals, his goals to games ratio over the past couple of years at domestic and International level is excellent, and you only have to watch the kind of goals he scores: Headers, tap-ins, outrageous goals (the kind you want to see from top players).

Heskey is big, mobile and built like a heavy weight boxer. Yeah he's effective in allowing others to play, but that doesn't make him a good 'footballer' it makes him a hugely effective option, but one with little end product of his own in terms of genuine direct threat.

If that makes him a better 'footballer' than I despair. Once again Crouch is being given a massive disservice, he comes in, scores more goals than Heskey has scored since his return to the England fold and is STILL being compared unfavourably to one of the biggest annoyances in English football. Heskey is a nice lad and all, but he's still got the same issues now that have dogged his career: He's a striker that doesn't score goals and is hampered by his own self confidence.

Crouch is the contrary.


[/quote]

mark the bottom line is england play better with heskey up front than crouch. when crouch is up front the defense all but bypass the midfield. england's best pefromances have come with heskey in the team. if the be all and end all were goals capello would have recalled owen long before now.
[/quote]

That happens with Heskey occasionally too, it's down to the manager to prevent the team from doing so. I never understood the reasoning behind that anyway with Crouch, given he's much better on the deck than using his head.

Shades of November 05 here anyway. The same posters back then were proclaiming how much of a 'disgrace' it was to have a centre forward who couldn't score. He went on to have an excellent record in an otherwise underused spell and had a great International record too. He also helped contribute to the way in which we started using Stevie differently and getting more from him in the process and continues to come in and provide a good option (and goals) for his country too.

Meanwhile Heskey gets the plaudits for 'holding the ball up well' and helping World Class striker Wayne Rooney to start scoring goals. Goals from our centre forward it seems, in this new breed of thinking, revolutionised from 3 years ago, no longer an issue for the player leading the line for one of the World Cup hopefuls.

Love it.
[/quote]

fabiocapello.fa/suggestions/rants@hotmail.com

;O)
 
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36391.msg963010#msg963010 date=1255606230]
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
[/quote]

random stranger in the pub - 'well as I was saying, crouch...he's a bit shit isn't he?'

*mark smashing beer glass on the table*

mark - 'SAY THAT AGAIN!!!'
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36391.msg963010#msg963010 date=1255606230]
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
[/quote]

Heh 😀, I just think he comes in for some unwarranted and often hypocritical stick..

He comes in, gets a chance, scores two goals. He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way.

Heskey by comparison..
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963090#msg963090 date=1255611617]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36391.msg963010#msg963010 date=1255606230]
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
[/quote]

Heh 😀, I just think he comes in for some unwarranted and often hypocritical stick..

He comes in, gets a chance, scores two goals. He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way.

Heskey by comparison..
[/quote]
World cup final tomorrow night against Italy, who would you play alongside Rooney?
 
[quote author=dossena link=topic=36391.msg963093#msg963093 date=1255611828]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963090#msg963090 date=1255611617]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36391.msg963010#msg963010 date=1255606230]
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
[/quote]

Heh 😀, I just think he comes in for some unwarranted and often hypocritical stick..

He comes in, gets a chance, scores two goals. He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way.

Heskey by comparison..
[/quote]
World cup final tomorrow night against Italy, who would you play alongside Rooney?
[/quote]

Crouch. Why not? He can score goals and Heskey can't. The only reason not to would be how familiar Rooney and Crouch are playing together.

Are people seriously saying that if you displace Heskey and put Crouch in then the goals will dry up?
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963090#msg963090 date=1255611617]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36391.msg963010#msg963010 date=1255606230]
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
[/quote]

Heh 😀, I just think he comes in for some unwarranted and often hypocritical stick..

He comes in, gets a chance, scores two goals. He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way.

Heskey by comparison..
[/quote]

I can't stand heskey. I've watched the guy for 10 years and the only time I thought he was half decent was in 2001 *cough* purple patch *cough* but I can't deny certain player's performances have improved with heskey in the side. new manager? new system? they've pulled their finger out? all of the above? it's possible england's improvement has NOTHING to do with heskey but then again it's possible it may have a lot to do with heskey.
the time for fucking around is over, if england were playing in the world cup tomorrow heskey would be in my starting line up because I 'know' england have performed with heskey in the team, whilst I can only speculate how england will do with crouch.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963090#msg963090 date=1255611617]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36391.msg963010#msg963010 date=1255606230]
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
[/quote]

Heh 😀, I just think he comes in for some unwarranted and often hypocritical stick..

He comes in, gets a chance, scores two goals. He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way. [/quote]

I could say the exact same thing about the way Babel is treated by most posters here. He scores a goal against the Mancs (albeit a 'shank') and assists in the next game on the game winning goal, and people say the usual shit.

Crouch is an average player ... as is Heskey. Heskey suits Capello more than Crouch. And that's about it really.
 
Ok, we'd qualified and put out an otch-botch side last night, and still won 3-0.

Yeah it was rubbish opposition, but you have that confidence now with the squad itself that Capello will send a team out and do well, no Heskey either.

I do think he's had an effect, but I think it's just as much about the system as anything, the organisation, the way he's utilised Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard in the same side effectively. Heskey's doing the donkey work and we've seen that work as an option for years, but there will be times when we need something more/different.

Look at the friendly game against Holland, the most significant decision which got us back on level terms was replacing Heskey with Defoe.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=36391.msg963106#msg963106 date=1255612929]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963090#msg963090 date=1255611617]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36391.msg963010#msg963010 date=1255606230]
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
[/quote]

Heh 😀, I just think he comes in for some unwarranted and often hypocritical stick..

He comes in, gets a chance, scores two goals. He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way. [/quote]

I could say the exact same thing about the way Babel is treated by most posters here. He scores a goal against the Mancs (albeit a 'shank') and assists in the next game on the game winning goal, and people say the usual shit.

Crouch is an average player ... as is Heskey. Heskey suits Capello more than Crouch. And that's about it really.
[/quote]

Come on Wiz, did you miss out my last sentence completely? He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way

You act like that United game is symptomatic of Babel's Liverpool career, there's been plenty of times when he's had chances and been shite, far more times that when he's actually come in and done something.

Besides, he's done well of late and been acknowledged for it, myself included, so it's hardly the same. If we're talking about attitude and confidence, Crouch has it in spades in comparison to both Heskey and Babel.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=36391.msg963106#msg963106 date=1255612929]


Crouch is an average player ... as is Heskey. Heskey suits Capello more than Crouch. And that's about it really.
[/quote]

which is the bottom line really.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963109#msg963109 date=1255613093]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=36391.msg963106#msg963106 date=1255612929]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963090#msg963090 date=1255611617]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36391.msg963010#msg963010 date=1255606230]
I think that one day someone will say something about Crouch at just the wrong time around Mark and that'll be the end of him.
[/quote]

Heh 😀, I just think he comes in for some unwarranted and often hypocritical stick..

He comes in, gets a chance, scores two goals. He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way. [/quote]

I could say the exact same thing about the way Babel is treated by most posters here. He scores a goal against the Mancs (albeit a 'shank') and assists in the next game on the game winning goal, and people say the usual shit.

Crouch is an average player ... as is Heskey. Heskey suits Capello more than Crouch. And that's about it really.
[/quote]

Come on Wiz, did you miss out my last sentence completely? He doesn't let his head drop no matter what gets thrown his way

You act like that United game is symptomatic of Babel's Liverpool career, there's been plenty of times when he's had chances and been shite, far more times that when he's actually come in and done something.

Besides, he's done well of late and been acknowledged for it, myself included, so it's hardly the same. If we're talking about attitude and confidence, Crouch has it in spades in comparison to both Heskey and Babel.
[/quote]

Crouch is 27 (?) and has always had to prove hiimself - he's always been given a rough stick, when as I say he's a solid professional ('average'). Babel came from Ajax and has seemingly failed to realize that you also have to 'work hard' 100% of hte time in order to succeed here. He's impacted a lot of games (far more in his 1st season than Crouch did might I add) and has never been given a proper run in the side (despite his many starts in his first season, which were not 5 in a row, or 10 in a row like Crouch got his 19). Fact is, Crouch made it. I somehow doubt Babel will with us.

Last point - yes, Babel has been given chances. But after ONE BAD performance this year, and it was ONLY ONE (just like Gerrard, and almost the whole team), he was dropped. Dropped for one bad performance. Yes, that's how you give someone a 'I have faith in you' boost.
 
LTW, would you have picked Babel for the next match after the way he played against Spurs? Remember Yossi wasn't on the pitch till about the 70th minute and he did way more in 20 mins than Babel had done in 70.
 
Being dropped after one bad performance could be considered harsh for any player, I admit, but we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, what Rafa sees in training, etc. Crouch was treated similar in his second and third seasons. He'd come in, do well and get dropped, the brace against Gala springs to mind. He was dropped three days later for the defeat at Bolton. So for all the initial backing he got, he was treated as bad (or worse) than Babel has been at times.

The problem with Babel performing badly in that first game was that he'd promised a fair bit more preseason, was given a chance in the opening fixture (how much more backing can you get?) and succumbed to his usual lacklustre self. We'd been there before loads of times, where you hope this is the game that he gets it together. I've lost count of the amount of times I've thought (hoped) that when he's played.

Yeah the whole team was bad, but like I said, we've been here before with Babel. He's a potential match winner and these are the kind of games, when others are playing poorly, where you want someone like him to step up and make a difference and make something happen, because he's capable of it, we've seen it with Yossi.

Regards him impacting on games "far more in his 1st season than Crouch did...".

Why exaggerate?

2005-2006
Crouch: 47 apps, 13 goals

2006-2007
Crouch: 46 apps, 17 goals

2007-2008
Babel: 49 apps, 10 goals
Crouch: 31 apps, 11 goals


2008-2009
Babel: 38 apps, 4 goals
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=36391.msg963165#msg963165 date=1255617779]
LTW, would you have picked Babel for the next match after the way he played against Spurs? Remember Yossi wasn't on the pitch till about the 70th minute and he did way more in 20 mins than Babel had done in 70.
[/quote]

Not this season - I think I would have sold Babel this summer as he will never make it under Rafa. He may never make it all, but he definitely won't make it under Rafa for whatever reason (be it his mental strength, or something else).
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963166#msg963166 date=1255617841]
The problem with Babel performing badly in that first game was that he'd promised a fair bit more preseason, was given a chance in the opening fixture (how much more backing can you get?) and succumbed to his usual lacklustre self.[/quote]

So you say in the 1st paragraph it was harsh, but then you rationalize with 'he'd promised a fair bit more preseason' now. Yes he did, I know and every Liverpool fan was pissed off at what we saw. But what is the POINT of keeping him if you're essentially saying, "play the perfect game every bloody game, or else". I know it's not the same, but I remember watching a few Ronaldo games his first season and he was shit in a few and brilliant in a few others. But Fergie stuck with him the whole way ... That's how you give a YOUNGSTER, not a 26/27 year old like Crouch, confidence ... I put half the balme however on Babel - who seems to be as mentally tough as a gummy bar.

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963166#msg963166 date=1255617841]
Why exaggerate?

2005-2006
Crouch: 47 apps, 13 goals

2007-2008
Babel: 49 apps, 10 goals[/quote]

So based on goals, we decide 'impact' ... Ok.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=36391.msg963190#msg963190 date=1255619278]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963166#msg963166 date=1255617841]
The problem with Babel performing badly in that first game was that he'd promised a fair bit more preseason, was given a chance in the opening fixture (how much more backing can you get?) and succumbed to his usual lacklustre self.[/quote]

So you say in the 1st paragraph it was harsh, but then you rationalize with 'he'd promised a fair bit more preseason' now. Yes he did, I know and every Liverpool fan was pissed off at what we saw. But what is the POINT of keeping him if you're essentially saying, "play the perfect game every bloody game, or else". I know it's not the same, but I remember watching a few Ronaldo games his first season and he was shit in a few and brilliant in a few others. But Fergie stuck with him the whole way ... That's how you give a YOUNGSTER, not a 26/27 year old like Crouch, confidence ... I put half the balme however on Babel - who seems to be as mentally tough as a gummy bar.

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36391.msg963166#msg963166 date=1255617841]
Why exaggerate?

2005-2006
Crouch: 47 apps, 13 goals

2007-2008
Babel: 49 apps, 10 goals[/quote]

So based on goals, we decide 'impact' ... Ok.
[/quote]

No one's saying, "play the perfect game, or else", he's played far from it, you couldn't even say he was 'average', he was desperately poor and often is. The point is, you want him to 'contribute', which is why he's had the plaudits in the last few games, because he's done exactly that. He's used his brain, instead of things not going well for him and allowing his head to drop because he's played like a kid who's unable to show game intelligence, he's stopped and had a look at what's going on around him and been decisive.

THAT'S the difference and that's what you want to see as the bare minimum.

Regards 'impact', well if it wasn't goals, what impact did he have? I've rarely seen him show anything other than an ability to crack a shot to occasionally dig us out of a hole. In that first season I don't recall him offering much else, nor has he since (recent games excluded). Was he creative, or did he show reasonable workrate and team work? He showed promise from what I recall in his ability to score quite tremendous goals, but that was it, and that in itself was enough to be optimistic about, but I don't recall much else(?).
 
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