Hendo today

[Windom Earle]

Not spending is generally a pretty bad policy in an inflationary environment.

If we really have been waiting for particular players to become available that seems like bad news to me. Good players aren't that scarce. There's no reason we shouldn't have 4 or 5 alternatives to any priority target.

I see your point but I disagree, mainly because it is a touch too simplistic. There is no point in the club saddling themselves with players that either are not good enough or the manager doesn't fancy (ooh err). And while in the ideal world we would have a lovely long list of alternatives; that ignores completely factors such as player prices, availability, desire to play for Liverpool and Klopp's/the coaching staff's own opinion on who or what matches the profile required for each position.

The point that seems to get lost on fans a lot of the time, is that - use of stats or not - the rating of players is still much based on opinion and gut feeling. Just because we like Hector or Rodriguez doesn't mean that they are the right fit (Klopp puts a large emphasis on attitude and desire to play for the club, that much is clear from his own thoughts on the subject - we can only ever really guess how each player fits this criteria). What's to say that those players haven't already been sounded out but don't fancy what is very definitely still a project?

Just because we need a LB or DM doesn't mean we should sign one if there is not the correct standard available. Just because our rivals are spending like it's going out of fashion doesn't mean that we should. Just because you argue that not spending is a bad policy, doesn't mean we will spend.

Klopp knows what he wants in terms of players and positions, he also knows he has money - but he's also clever enough to know that playing for him and for Liverpool isn't enough of a draw for some players without Europe. I personally think that he's bought players he believes can push us on to Champions League and contribute once we are there, the next phase of the rebuilding starts when we are more attractive to play for.

Liverpool's recent history is littered with examples of players that turned out to be an utter waste of time and money, I'd sooner we waited for the right player than carry on that cycle.

 

[keniget]

There is no excuse for Henderson's display but ultimately the blame lies with Klopp.

Why on earth are we starting the season with Jordan Henderson as our deepest midfielder alongside two luxury AM types?

 

[peterhague]

I see your point but I disagree, mainly because it is a touch too simplistic. There is no point in the club saddling themselves with players that either are not good enough or the manager doesn't fancy (ooh err). And while in the ideal world we would have a lovely long list of alternatives; that ignores completely factors such as player prices, availability, desire to play for Liverpool and Klopp's/the coaching staff's own opinion on who or what matches the profile required for each position.

The point that seems to get lost on fans a lot of the time, is that - use of stats or not - the rating of players is still much based on opinion and gut feeling. Just because we like Hector or Rodriguez doesn't mean that they are the right fit (Klopp puts a large emphasis on attitude and desire to play for the club, that much is clear from his own thoughts on the subject - we can only ever really guess how each player fits this criteria). What's to say that those players haven't already been sounded out but don't fancy what is very definitely still a project?

Just because we need a LB or DM doesn't mean we should sign one if there is not the correct standard available. Just because our rivals are spending like it's going out of fashion doesn't mean that we should. Just because you argue that not spending is a bad policy, doesn't mean we will spend.

Klopp knows what he wants in terms of players and positions, he also knows he has money - but he's also clever enough to know that playing for him and for Liverpool isn't enough of a draw for some players without Europe. I personally think that he's bought players he believes can push us on to Champions League and contribute once we are there, the next phase of the rebuilding starts when we are more attractive to play for.

Liverpool's recent history is littered with examples of players that turned out to be an utter waste of time and money, I'd sooner we waited for the right player than carry on that cycle.

But if the criteria are that strict then it's as likely there are zero players that fit them as one.

Which still leave the fundamental question of whether it's best to go for the best option or none at all. And I think, because prices are highly inflationary and ground lost to rivals is not easily recovered, that a compromise is usually wiser.

You cite past LFC behaviour in favour of your case. Without particularly examining that, I'd still put forward Arsenal over the last 10 or so years as evidence in my favour.

 

[hmmmmm1]

He needs to play in a 3 in the midfield to do well

 

[rurikbird]

The Benny Hill music video was mean and unnecessary. This is much better (and much scarier, unfortunately):

 

[juniormember]

He's definitely been restricted by this injury, he could hit long 25-30 passes into players before. Now he seems completely reluctant to play it long and even the fairly rudimentary passes are going astray. As said, he's never played the disciplined role, he's always been about energy and covering ground. If Klopp has taken this decision to accommodate whatever he has lost in that sense, then he's missing the point completely.

He needs hooking and Klopp needs to strike some balance back in the midfield. Wijnaldum playing deep isn't working because he's not industrious enough and I'm not sure he deserves to take one of the front spots yet. Grujic deserves a chance and it's completely criminal that Origi is on the bench behind the likes of Firmino and a well short of fitness Sturridge.

Matip needs a couple of easy games to get upto speed and then I'd be looking at replacing Lovren with him. But we need to buy, we need a quality left back and we need Can back in the side. Preferably alongside either Milner or Grujic.

-----------------Karius-------------------
Clyne----Matip-----Klavan---??????
-----------Can---Grujic-----------------
--Mane----Wijnaldum-----Coutinho--
----------------Origi-----------------------

I like that but Grujic back there worries me a little.

 

[Ossi]

Henderson was average at best last season and that "form" has continued. I do not belive him when he´s saying he´s injury free.

Wijnaldum seems slow in mind and feet. He doesn´t seem good enough.

Alot of people on this forum believes Can and Sakho are the answer for our problems...sadly these people have a memory problem. Both Can and Sakho were inconsistent last season. We do need to try Can (or Grujic) instead of Henderson but we need a proper dm!

 

[Rosco]

There is no excuse for Henderson's display but ultimately the blame lies with Klopp.

Why on earth are we starting the season with Jordan Henderson as our deepest midfielder alongside two luxury AM types?

Because we bought another luxury AM type and have to shoehorn him in alongside our other expensive signings?

 

[Hansern]

Henderson was average at best last season and that "form" has continued. I do not belive him when he´s saying he´s injury free.

Wijnaldum seems slow in mind and feet. He doesn´t seem good enough.

Alot of people on this forum believes Can and Sakho are the answer for our problems...sadly these people have a memory problem. Both Can and Sakho were inconsistent last season. We do need to try Can (or Grujic) instead of Henderson but we need a proper dm!

Wijnaldum definetly isnt slow in mind or feet though, and he's more than good enough.
The question is wheter or not he can play in that position or if he's match fit yet.

He deserves more than 180 minutes of Premier league football for us before we conclude anything. Thats nearly Brendanesque. 😉

 

[Windom Earle]

But if the criteria are that strict then it's as likely there are zero players that fit them as one.

Which still leave the fundamental question of whether it's best to go for the best option or none at all. And I think, because prices are highly inflationary and ground lost to rivals is not easily recovered, that a compromise is usually wiser.

You cite past LFC behaviour in favour of your case. Without particularly examining that, I'd still put forward Arsenal over the last 10 or so years as evidence in my favour.

What strict criteria are you referring to? The idea I put forward was players that want to sign for the club, have the correct ability and are at reasonable prices - that surely is the base criteria for pretty much all clubs outside of the mega-rich, and is clearly the criteria that Klopp buys into given all the comments he has made on the subject recently.

It's not just past LFC behaviour, it is mistakes that we are still paying for with Markovic and Balotelli on the books - two players signed in the last two years. Your argument is sounding a lot like sign anyone at all costs - if that is not the case then you haven't done a very good job of conveying it. Besides, past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour - a lot of the decision making guys are still here, you know the guys who thought Balotelli/Benteke/Markovic/Moreno/Alberto/Aspas (delete as appropriate) were good ideas.

And I'm not sure how Arsenal fits the bill for your argument either. I'm not a big follower of other teams, but I do know that one criticism of Wenger over the last 10 years or so is that he doesn't spend enough aside from the odd marquee player. While that strategy might not have brought them untold success, it has brought them almost unparalleled consistency with regards to Champions League qualification.

Really, at this point, the whole debate is just conjecture. Take the LB position for example. The truth could be that Klopp wanted Chilwell and when he was rebuffed he stopped shopping for a LB. OR it could be that the club had already sounded out other players and found they didn't meet the criteria and Chilwell was 4th/5th on the list they'd drawn up. OR it could be that Klopp is keeping his powder dry until Liverpool are back amongst the top four. OR maybe old Jürgen really does believe that "Milly" can be a great LB (whether we agree it's a waste of his talents or not) or at least match the level of player he'd be able to attract right now.

There are far too many variables for it to be as black and white as you are trying to make it. There are far too many variables for the only solution to be "go and sign someone because why not!"

For what it is worth, I do agree that in this climate if Liverpool slip behind that it is only going to get harder to recover. But if you take a serious look at the big money signings our rivals have made (for sake of argument; Sane, Gundogan, Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Ibrahimovic, Kante, Batshuayi, Stones) - none of those players would have signed for LFC with the possible exceptions of Batshuayi and maybe the two ex-Dortmund players. We have no European football, and we won't pay the wages that Man Utd and Chelsea are having to make up for their lack of CL/Europe respectively, nor do we have the glamorous location. We have a project, and sometimes for the top players that just isn't enough. This leaves us shopping in a whole different tier to our rivals at times.

 

[Modo]

Wijnaldum to me is a player that needs to play in an advanced role. Like the tip of a midfield pyramid. He needs two players behind him to cover for him.
Same goes with Lallana.

But playing Wijnaldum with both Lallana, Henderson is almost looking for trouble.

 

[peterhague]

What strict criteria are you referring to? The idea I put forward was players that want to sign for the club, have the correct ability and are at reasonable prices - that surely is the base criteria for pretty much all clubs outside of the mega-rich, and is clearly the criteria that Klopp buys into given all the comments he has made on the subject recently.

It's not just past LFC behaviour, it is mistakes that we are still paying for with Markovic and Balotelli on the books - two players signed in the last two years. Your argument is sounding a lot like sign anyone at all costs - if that is not the case then you haven't done a very good job of conveying it. Besides, past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour - a lot of the decision making guys are still here, you know the guys who thought Balotelli/Benteke/Markovic/Moreno/Alberto/Aspas (delete as appropriate) were good ideas.

And I'm not sure how Arsenal fits the bill for your argument either. I'm not a big follower of other teams, but I do know that one criticism of Wenger over the last 10 years or so is that he doesn't spend enough aside from the odd marquee player. While that strategy might not have brought them untold success, it has brought them almost unparalleled consistency with regards to Champions League qualification.

Really, at this point, the whole debate is just conjecture. Take the LB position for example. The truth could be that Klopp wanted Chilwell and when he was rebuffed he stopped shopping for a LB. OR it could be that the club had already sounded out other players and found they didn't meet the criteria and Chilwell was 4th/5th on the list they'd drawn up. OR it could be that Klopp is keeping his powder dry until Liverpool are back amongst the top four. OR maybe old Jürgen really does believe that "Milly" can be a great LB (whether we agree it's a waste of his talents or not) or at least match the level of player he'd be able to attract right now.

There are far too many variables for it to be as black and white as you are trying to make it. There are far too many variables for the only solution to be "go and sign someone because why not!"

For what it is worth, I do agree that in this climate if Liverpool slip behind that it is only going to get harder to recover. But if you take a serious look at the big money signings our rivals have made (for sake of argument; Sane, Gundogan, Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Ibrahimovic, Kante, Batshuayi, Stones) - none of those players would have signed for LFC with the possible exceptions of Batshuayi and maybe the two ex-Dortmund players. We have no European football, and we won't pay the wages that Man Utd and Chelsea are having to make up for their lack of CL/Europe respectively, nor do we have the glamorous location. We have a project, and sometimes for the top players that just isn't enough. This leaves us shopping in a whole different tier to our rivals at times.

Thanks for the essay.

What I'm basically saying is that on average there will tend to be ample acceptable alternatives on the market that a focus on just one target is unnecessary. Obviously not absolutely always, but in general. That, combined with the very competitive nature of the sport, and the very inflationary environment, means money should be spent where possible and that saving is counterproductive.

You think that on average there is no acceptable alternative to any one player.

Fine, so then we disagree.

 

[keniget]

Because we bought another luxury AM type and have to shoehorn him in alongside our other expensive signings?

Well that was kinda implied...

 

[Rosco]

Well that was kinda implied...

Well it is Monday morning

 

[Windom Earle]

Thanks for the essay..

You are welcome. Shame you failed to read it.

What I'm basically saying is that on average there will tend to be ample acceptable alternatives on the market that a focus on just one target is unnecessary. Obviously not absolutely always, but in general. That, combined with the very competitive nature of the sport, and the very inflationary environment, means money should be spent where possible and that saving is counterproductive.

I understand your point perfectly, because as I said elsewhere it is very simplistic. Unfortunately, in the real world it doesn't work how you would like it to. Money should absolutely not be spent where possible if it means spending it on assets that cannot or will not contribute to success. "Ample acceptable alternatives" has brought us the likes of Jermaine Pennant instead of Dani Alves! And often these deals have seemed to fans to be something of an opportunity cost (how many times have we read stories of the club losing on on player x or y for a £1m here, £2m there?)

You think that on average there is no acceptable alternative to any one player.

This is not something I have said. You need to work on your reading comprehension old bean! The point I made is that there may well be many alternatives, or there may just as well be none - we will never know because we are not the ones making the decisions, we do not have the list of targets (we just fight over made up newspaper bollocks most of the time). The point is, Liverpool not signing a player for X position doesn't automatically = lack of ambition. It can just as well mean that the club has exhausted all alternatives.

Is that such a difficult point to understand?

Fine, so then we disagree.

If your point is actually that the club needs to spend at all costs (you have had an opportunity to properly expound on this point, but haven't taken it), then yes - we very definitely disagree. But if your point is the more sober "we should spend what we have on players that can contribute so we don't fall behind", then actually we are in agreement. The problem is, we are not the only ones chasing these players and they very often turn us down.

Were you happy when the club signed Balotelli? That deal seems to fit your wide-open criteria for player recruitment, need a striker buy a striker so we don't fall behind.

 

[peterhague]

I don't read long-winded posts on here. Life is just too short.

All I have ever said is that I don't buy that there aren't at least a couple of good alternatives to the likes of Dahoud and Chilwell who we could realistically sign. I think that's generally the situation given the sheer number of footballers.

You either agree with this or you don't. Everything else is irrelevant.

 

[Oncy]

Hes regressing.
Seriously poor again tonight against a Championship team.

I dont know what to think really.

 

[Raz]

Its very simple, he's not very good.

 

[Glen C]

He was awful tonight. I'm hoping Can is fit against spurs. If so i'd drop hendo big time.

 

[Raz]

Henderson needs time on the bench regardless of who is fit or not. He is in a rot and looks fucking stuck.

 

[Gary25]

Always been a fan of Henderson, but he's struggling big time and is leaving Jurgen with a big problem.

 

[Leo]

It's baffling that our player with the most assists in the team last season is being shunted to full back whilst we have an under performing waste of space and a luxury 25 million signing who seems to be lost at times.
We need our best players playing in their best positions.
It's just basic cop on.

 

[Raz]

Yep milner looked the part as he had so much room to take his game further up the pitch. He was actually finding himself in areas he can cause problems, wasted. And firmino and lallana.... just tired of these guys.

 

[darkstarexodus]

It's time for a spell on the bench for Hendo. Didn't see today but if it was comparable to Saturday then we can't afford to play him back into shape. We have enough alternatives that he needs to earn a spot in the side and he certainly hasn't done that the past 7 days.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

We need our best players playing in their best positions.
It's just basic cop on.

Something with our gaffas that doesn't allow them to understand the above ...

 

[Raz]

Something with our gaffas that doesn't allow them to understand the above ...

But according to modo we have to drop better players to play players in their proper positions. What gives.

 

[Woland]

He's fucking shite

 

[Modo]

He's fucking shite

The O.G of Hendo hate.

 

[Raz]

He's fucking shite

Pretty much. If he was made available it would be interesting to see where the interest would come from. Celtic, Sunderland, Stoke etc

 

[darkstarexodus]

Pretty much. If he was made available it would be interesting to see where the interest would come from. Celtic, Sunderland, Stoke etc

He needs sitting but let's not forget that two years back, pre-injury, the interest was from City and Spurs. He deserves more respect than that and a chance to return to form - he just doesn't deserve to start right now.