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Henderson

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Did you see our players in the Arsenal game?

Passive in our play. Aggressive when arguing with their players. Passive Aggressive.
In that whole game, Arsenal had a good 25 minutes overall, that's it. Other that we were controlling, it's just when we don't we really don't, because we don't have the legs anymore for sustained control of a game if the opposition press is too hard
 
That's not an accurate characterisation of what seems to be in discussion. Someone who uses the exact same idiomatic expression that includes the word monkey, regardless of who they are talking about could actually be less preoccupied with racial difference than someone who doesn't. They could also be characterized as less sensitive to racial difference or racial discourse, or less cautious with their words. They wouldn't automatically be a racist though.
 
Are you saying calling someone a cheeky monkey is racist?

I am aware of the meaning of the expression, but if someone is saying it to a black person, how is it not?
Using monkey even in this context would be very insensitive.
I mean, people were, and some still are, throwing bananas and making monkey sounds at black players,
 
That's not an accurate characterisation of what seems to be in discussion. Someone who uses the exact same idiomatic expression that includes the word monkey, regardless of who they are talking about could actually be less preoccupied with racial difference than someone who doesn't. They could also be characterized as less sensitive to racial difference or racial discourse, or less cautious with their words. They wouldn't automatically be a racist though.

Ok, I get your nuance here. It would be considered a racist expression currently though?
So, like my old used to be a sailor neighbour who would make such remarks, might not be racist per se but such ways of speaking will be considered as such?
 
I am aware of the meaning of the expression, but if someone is saying it to a black person, how is it not?
Using monkey even in this context would be very insensitive.
I mean, people were, and some still are, throwing bananas and making monkey sounds at black players,
Then I go back to an earlier comment. You are effectively wanting to ban white people from saying the word monkey altogether.
 
Then I go back to an earlier comment. You are effectively wanting to ban white people from saying the word monkey altogether.

No, I am not talking about banning word. What you say is not the same. Using it to address/talk about a black person is when the problem occurs no?
 
No, I am not talking about banning word. What you say is not the same. Using it to address/talk about a black person is when the problem occurs no?
Not when you are using a common phrase you'd use to anyone regardless of race.
 
Not when you are using a common phrase you'd use to anyone regardless of race.

Right. Hence your cheeky monkey example. Well, I guess we disagree on this. I think using monkey is problematic nevertheless when talking to/about a black person.
 
Wow... Can't believe some of the nonsense being spouted here.

How the blinkin' flip is somebody saying "Just don't use a word that can have racist connotations in certain situations around a black person" being paraphrased as "YOu want the word banned completely!!!"? Jesus wept.

I call my daughters 'monkey' at times, along with other terms of endearment. I would never call a person of colour anything that has the word 'monkey' in it, because I know they've been racially insulted in the past, and why would I want make them even have to think about that again, even if what I'm saying doesn't come from a racist place?

It's not rocket science. It's basic human decency and consideration for those who've been through shite we cannot possible imagine.

But, by all means, continue to label those of us who feel this way "woke" (as if that's an insult) because you cannot be inconvenienced to maybe think of how others will feel before you open your pie-hole.
 
Wow... Can't believe some of the nonsense being spouted here.

How the blinkin' flip is somebody saying "Just don't use a word that can have racist connotations in certain situations around a black person" being paraphrased as "YOu want the word banned completely!!!"? Jesus wept.

I call my daughters 'monkey' at times, along with other terms of endearment. I would never call a person of colour anything that has the word 'monkey' in it, because I know they've been racially insulted in the past, and why would I want make them even have to think about that again, even if what I'm saying doesn't come from a racist place?

It's not rocket science. It's basic human decency and consideration for those who've been through shite we cannot possible imagine.

But, by all means, continue to label those of us who feel this way "woke" (as if that's an insult) because you cannot be inconvenienced to maybe think of how others will feel before you open your pie-hole.

FYI the term person of colour is deemed offensive by some.

Perhaps it's a good idea to lock this thread. It's too much of a minefield.
 
The pre-emptive mental gymnastics on here is quiet something so far.
But let’s give Hendo a chance to explain his side first.
 
Wow... Can't believe some of the nonsense being spouted here.

How the blinkin' flip is somebody saying "Just don't use a word that can have racist connotations in certain situations around a black person" being paraphrased as "YOu want the word banned completely!!!"? Jesus wept.

I call my daughters 'monkey' at times, along with other terms of endearment. I would never call a person of colour anything that has the word 'monkey' in it, because I know they've been racially insulted in the past, and why would I want make them even have to think about that again, even if what I'm saying doesn't come from a racist place?

It's not rocket science. It's basic human decency and consideration for those who've been through shite we cannot possible imagine.

But, by all means, continue to label those of us who feel this way "woke" (as if that's an insult) because you cannot be inconvenienced to maybe think of how others will feel before you open your pie-hole.

People don't generally think about how others feel when they are annoyed and in a competitive context. It's why people say insulting things. Everyone would be fine with it if he called him a stupid asshole.

So, he wants to say that he's making a mountain out of a molehill, or acting a fool, or whatever, and the phrase he'd use uncontroversially to anyone else, he shouldn't use because now he's saying it to someone who isn't aware of this idiom and who will be insulted due to the larger racist employment of this word and their identity.

Fine. But if he makes a mistake and doesn't think while enraged, that this person might not be aware of this idiom, and further that ther s a long racist history with the word monkey, that doesn't make him a racist. In that scenario he's not thinking about him being black and how he would take it, he's thinking about what a play acting cunt he's being (viciously sexist) I can see myself making this mistake. It doesn't make him not racist either. We'd have to know him, which I don't.

I learned eeny meanie money mo.... Etc. Etc. And when I came to the states I was punished for saying it. I didn't know what the n word was. I'd only encountered it in the rhyme and thought it meant a funny little creature. It was wrong that I was punished for it, but it was a teachable moment if handled correctly. There's even less chance that anything constructive will come out of this scenario.

What if you were talking to a friend of your kids and they did something really cute, and habitually, out of a place of genuine love and delight in their joyfulness, you said "come here, you little monkey."

You shouldn't say that, but you also shouldn't be pilloried for using the term innocently just because others have used it so horribly.
 
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The only one wound up here is you. If you don't want to engage with me then don't reply to my posts. It's not complicated. I can't remember 'insulting you with profanities', but I can certainly remember pulling you up for shit you've said in the past. It's funny, all this talk of people being easily offended and sensitive men being cissies, and yet you are as easily offended as anyone who posts on here. Not that that makes you a cissy, of course, but it does mean you lack any kind of self-awareness.

For what it's worth, I apologise if I've hurt your feelings with profanities, or anything else I've said. Let's move on.

Oh ffs.
 
People don't generally think about how others feel when they are annoyed and in a competitive context. It's why people say insulting things. Everyone would be fine with it if he called him a stupid asshole.

So, he wants to say that he's making a mountain out of a molehill, or acting a fool, or whatever, and the phrase he'd use uncontroversially to anyone else, he shouldn't use because now he's saying it to someone who isn't aware of this idiom and who will be insulted due to the larger racist employment of this word and their identity.

Fine. But if he makes a mistake and doesn't think while enraged, that this person might not be aware of this idiom, and further that ther s a long racist history with the word monkey, that doesn't make him a racist. In that scenario he's not thinking about him being black and how he would take it, he's thinking about what a play acting cunt he's being (viciously sexist) I can see myself making this mistake. It doesn't make him not racist either. We'd have to know him, which I don't.

I learned eeny meanie money mo.... Etc. Etc. And when I came to the states I was punished for saying it. I didn't know what the n word was. I'd only encountered it in the rhyme and thought it meant a funny little creature. It was wrong that I was punished for it, but it was a teachable moment if handled correctly. There's even less chance that anything constructive will come out of this scenario.

What if you were talking to a friend of your kids and they did something really cute, and habitually, out of a place of genuine love and delight in their joyfulness, you said "come here, you little monkey."

You shouldn't say that, but you also shouldn't be pilloried for using the term innocently just because others have used it so horribly.

This.

It’s not as if Hendo’s racist is he ? I highly doubt it because if he secretly was a Klan member for eg, he’s be easily found out by now. They won’t vote him to be captain, yes including BLACK (is saying that racist too ?!) players.

So he made a mistake ? Big deal. I’m willing to bet Hendo would have already quietly apologized to Gabriel, while their publicists, media and 6CM kick up a silly storm.

People make mistakes. So you apologize, reconcile and move on. Focus on the person’s character and not his mistakes.

Black people diss you white folks all the time, you’re the butt of EVERY stand up comedian so why don’t you go full woke on them ? You don’t right ? Instead you join in the laughter at your own expense. But then you see another white person diss a black person, and you all take out your guns and blaze him down immediately?

You fight to defend black lives cos an offensive word was used against them - monkey. Yet when someone offends you on an internet football forum, you get all wound up and begin to show similar intimidation/bullying/harassment behavior that you were valiantly fighting against earlier, towards him. English isn’t my first language but do you see my point ?

You all act high and mighty for one man but then turn into assholes towards another.

Oh but you say - it’s a person of colour !! Different context ! It’s a million times worse !

Is it ? Well, if you genuinely think that, then I can’t help you and nothing I say will ever change your perception. Cos it's only a matter of time, the goalposts will shift again to suit a particular viewpoint, and nobody wins eventually, esp. even more so, if you dislike a particular person/group. That's how wars begin.

Love wins. Not hate. So learn to love, even if both sides disagree. Colour or no colour. Isn’t that true equality ???
 
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I don't think anyone here has condemned Henderson as a racist. We don't know for sure what was said or what he was thinking. The point I made which seems to have got people's backs up is that if Henderson used a pejorative ending in 'monkey' in his frustration with Gabriel then he was stupid and thoughtless. I don't see how that's in any way controversial. A man in his position, as club captain and one of the figureheads of the 'kick racism out' campaign, should absolutely know better.
 
This.

It’s not as if Hendo’s racist is he ? I highly doubt it because if he secretly was a Klan member for eg, he’s be easily found out by now. They won’t vote him to be captain, yes including BLACK (is saying that racist too ?!) players.

So he made a mistake ? Big deal. I’m willing to bet Hendo would have already quietly apologized to Gabriel, while their publicists, media and 6CM kick up a silly storm.

People make mistakes. So you apologize, reconcile and move on. Focus on the person’s character and not his mistakes.

Black people diss you white folks all the time, you’re the butt of EVERY stand up comedian so why don’t you go full woke on them ? You don’t right ? Instead you join in the laughter at your own expense. But then you see another white person diss a black person, and you all take out your guns and blaze him down immediately?

You fight to defend black lives cos an offensive word was used against them - monkey. Yet when someone offends you on an internet football forum, you get all wound up and begin to show similar intimidation/bullying/harassment behavior that you were valiantly fighting against earlier, towards him. English isn’t my first language but do you see my point ?

You all act high and mighty for one man but then turn into assholes towards another.

Oh but you say - it’s a person of colour !! Different context ! It’s a million times worse !

Is it ? Well, if you genuinely think that, then I can’t help you and nothing I say will ever change your perception. Cos it's only a matter of time, the goalposts will shift again to suit a particular viewpoint, and nobody wins eventually, esp. even more so, if you dislike a particular person/group. That's how wars begin.

Love wins. Not hate. So learn to love, even if both sides disagree. Colour or no colour. Isn’t that true equality ???
You were right - you should have stayed out of this. Oh well.
 
The weird thing is that this whole discussion is based on an assumption of what Henderson has said.
I doubt the attitude among the players and managers would have been so relaxed after the game if he actually said anything racist. It will all come to nothing.
 
Some people get an education to try to understand and hopefully make a positive contribution to the world.

And then there are those who just do it to show off their intellectual prowess from their moral high ground and belittle others who see through their sh*t and dare to stand up to them. All they do is talk.
 
I don't think anyone here has condemned Henderson as a racist. We don't know for sure what was said or what he was thinking. The point I made which seems to have got people's backs up is that if Henderson used a pejorative ending in 'monkey' in his frustration with Gabriel then he was stupid and thoughtless. I don't see how that's in any way controversial. A man in his position, as club captain and one of the figureheads of the 'kick racism out' campaign, should absolutely know better.

"Stupid and thoughtless".

Well, maybe. But the next time you catch yourself doing something 'stupid and thoughtless', please have a word with yourself for not knowing better. Ok ?
 
FYI the term person of colour is deemed offensive by some.

Perhaps it's a good idea to lock this thread. It's too much of a minefield.

Unless things have changed in the past few days, 'person of colour' is not considered an offensive term.
 
People don't generally think about how others feel when they are annoyed and in a competitive context. It's why people say insulting things. Everyone would be fine with it if he called him a stupid asshole.

So, he wants to say that he's making a mountain out of a molehill, or acting a fool, or whatever, and the phrase he'd use uncontroversially to anyone else, he shouldn't use because now he's saying it to someone who isn't aware of this idiom and who will be insulted due to the larger racist employment of this word and their identity.

Fine. But if he makes a mistake and doesn't think while enraged, that this person might not be aware of this idiom, and further that ther s a long racist history with the word monkey, that doesn't make him a racist. In that scenario he's not thinking about him being black and how he would take it, he's thinking about what a play acting cunt he's being (viciously sexist) I can see myself making this mistake. It doesn't make him not racist either. We'd have to know him, which I don't.

I learned eeny meanie money mo.... Etc. Etc. And when I came to the states I was punished for saying it. I didn't know what the n word was. I'd only encountered it in the rhyme and thought it meant a funny little creature. It was wrong that I was punished for it, but it was a teachable moment if handled correctly. There's even less chance that anything constructive will come out of this scenario.

What if you were talking to a friend of your kids and they did something really cute, and habitually, out of a place of genuine love and delight in their joyfulness, you said "come here, you little monkey."

You shouldn't say that, but you also shouldn't be pilloried for using the term innocently just because others have used it so horribly.

Agree with all of that. Nobody has claimed that Hendo is a racist here (IF he even said this, for goodness sake).

What is being said - and argued for some baffling reason - is that there are certain words that shouldn't be used in certain situations, and when confronting a person of colour, 'monkey' is one of them. That's all.
 
It still pisses me off that the last time a Liverpool player was accused of making racist comments on the pitch, the FA took 7 weeks to interview 12 people who were on the pitch, review every second of footage from the numerous television cameras plus hours of footage from mobile phones in the crowd and employ two Portuguese lip readers to watch it all without discovering any hint of a racist comment from Bobby. And then pronounce that Holgate had ‘made the accusation in good faith’ while also declaring that ‘there is insufficient evidence to charge Firmino with any offence’ instead of simply saying that nothing racist was actually said.
 
It still pisses me off that the last time a Liverpool player was accused of making racist comments on the pitch, the FA took 7 weeks to interview 12 people who were on the pitch, review every second of footage from the numerous television cameras plus hours of footage from mobile phones in the crowd and employ two Portuguese lip readers to watch it all without discovering any hint of a racist comment from Bobby. And then pronounce that Holgate had ‘made the accusation in good faith’ while also declaring that ‘there is insufficient evidence to charge Firmino with any offence’ instead of simply saying that nothing racist was actually said.
For me there was a simple explanation that was only endorsed by the investigation finding SFA. Holgate is a lying cunt and only said that to save his ass from being sent off. It was the ineffable conclusion - but they darent charge him if course.
I'm delighted he turned out to be a shite player whose career is going nowhere.
 
Unless things have changed in the past few days, 'person of colour' is not considered an offensive term.
Depends where you are and who you talk to. I can guarantee you in the UK you'd be in front of HR if you used that term in a workplace setting.
 
As a black person I feel for Henderson. I dont think he's a racist at heart but unfortunately, he used a word that you cant use against a black person. Did he mean it? No, I dont think he did, but sadly I think if he's proven guilty he has to take it on the chin and learn from that. The sad thing is that I can see Henderson saying the exact same thing to a white person...
 
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