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Frank Rijkaard almost certain to be the next Liverpool manager-unrelaible source

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[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1227052#msg1227052 date=1291200045]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43010.msg1227026#msg1227026 date=1291199037]
Our shortlist is hopefully narrowed down to the following three young, talented managers:

Boas
Deschamps
Laudrup
[/quote]

Not one of these has done anything to prove they're better than Rijkaard let alone to be good enough to manage us.
[/quote]
They haven't proved they are worse either and that's sometimes equally important.

Personally I'm not convinced that Rijkaard is the right man for the new era under NESV. I'm not saying he'd fail if he arrived I'm just not convinced.

The three managers listed above perhaps haven't won a lot of trophies nor been tested at the biggest stage but for me, individually, they offer something I'm not Rijkaard would.

Boas beeing the biggest bet out of the three but the hype stems from something. I don't know much of him to be honest but he's doing an obviously great job at Porto and I'd like to think that Liverpool's got the power still to attract the apparent top talents. Both when it comes to players and managers. I like the fact that he's so young (my bloody age) and I like the idea of bringing someone in who's a little unknown but certainly knows how to be a manager.

Deschamps has already shown what a managerial talent he is bringing Marseille to the title after a baring trophy-less spell resembling ours. I've always liked Deschamps the footballer and this is influating my judgement but there's something about him that I really like. The fact that Marseille has been playing some attacking-minded football helps of course.

Laudrup has got many of the same attributes as Deschamps at least when it comes to beeing a house-hold name. I'm absolutely certain that with a capacity like Laudrup at the helm major talents and great players all around the globe would stand in line to come to Liverpool. He's a real gentleman and one I'm positive will give the club loads of positive hype too. He's had a bad half year in Spartak but elsewhere he's been a succes. From Brøndby to Getafe and he's now doing a splendid job in Mallorca, and has in fact already been tipped by many 'experts' to become either Mourinho or Pep's predecessors. I'm very fond of his ideas about football and the fact he loves to attack and entertain makes him a strong candidate in my opinion. (Getafes players during his time their claimed that he was easily the best player during their training sessions (sensationalized of course) but it's another interesting aspect - and one neither Houllier, Rafa or Hodgson brought along - he's been playing at the highest level himself.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43010.msg1227077#msg1227077 date=1291201212]
There's a difference between a manager that have "won fuck all", but only been around a few years, and look promising. And a manager that's been around a decade and has only had two successful seasons.

If you haven't won much, it's not as bad if you haven't been given the opportunity. If you have been given the oopportunity and failed it's a different matter.
[/quote]
Exactly.

It's quite simple really.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43010.msg1227083#msg1227083 date=1291201710]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43010.msg1227077#msg1227077 date=1291201212]
There's a difference between a manager that have "won fuck all", but only been around a few years, and look promising. And a manager that's been around a decade and has only had two successful seasons.

If you haven't won much, it's not as bad if you haven't been given the opportunity. If you have been given the oopportunity and failed it's a different matter.
[/quote]
Exactly.

It's quite simple really.
[/quote]So we can go young if they havnt had a chance yet, but not if they have won league and European cups?
I dont get the assumption that Rijkaard is a failure. He took over an awful barcelona side spent 30m quid and won league titles and a European cup. He left behind (after his 5 years in charge) Xavi, Messi, Valdes, Iniesta, Bojan, Puyol, Marquez etc the better part of the team that has been the best in Europe for almost a decade. I really dont understand why all the things that Barcelona have achieved are being credited elsewhere and Frank is just being saddled as a passenger.
He created a dynasty. He shipped out the old and revolutionised the team. How many of the first team pre-rijkaard came through the academy?
 
I never said we can't go young if they have won things? Where did you get that from?

There's no doubting that Rijkaard was a success at Barcelona, at the very least for part of his time there. What is doubted is how much he had to do with it.
I was also looking at the other clubs he managed, both of which he was fired from. Admittedly I don't know much about either of them, besides what I've read, but it doesn't look good.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43010.msg1227092#msg1227092 date=1291202305]
He took over an awful barcelona side spent 30m quid and won league titles and a European cup. [/quote]

people do rijkaard a massive disservice when they say 'anyone could have won with that team' as if rijkaard had come into barca team sweep all before them, real were in the ascendancy with their 'galacticos'. rijkaard made key signings like davids and ronaldinho and blooded the youngsters. the barca job wasn't 'gimme', barca had once a grand total of 1 european cup in their HISTORY before rijkaard won it.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43010.msg1227100#msg1227100 date=1291202778]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43010.msg1227092#msg1227092 date=1291202305]
He took over an awful barcelona side spent 30m quid and won league titles and a European cup. [/quote]

people do rijkaard a massive disservice when they say 'anyone could have won with that team' as if rijkaard had come into barca team sweep all before them, real were in the ascendancy with their 'galacticos'. rijkaard made key signings like davids and ronaldinho and blooded the youngsters. the barca job wasn't 'gimme', barca had once a grand total of 1 european cup in their HISTORY before rijkaard won it.
[/quote]

Of course it is an exaggeration to say 'anyone could have won with that team'. The problem for me is we don't really know how much he had to do with their success. That and the fact he has failed in his other club management jobs tells me he would be a gamble and we should look for something else.
 
I will add that if Rijkaard came in, I would be very excited and expect him to do well.

I'm just hoping that we get someone with a slightly better track record over their career.
 
[quote author=Binny link=topic=43010.msg1226734#msg1226734 date=1291138581]
Not trying to discredit him but as in Seville's case, DOF had a pretty big part to play in Barca's recovery. In this case, it was Txiki Begiristain who beat Man Utd to the signing of Ronaldinho and added Samuel Eto’o to the squad after they finished 2nd, behind Valencia.
[/quote]

This is why Txiki Begiristain is so highly rated in the football scene. Of cos there have been misses (Henrique, Cáceres, Chygrynskiy etc) but those early signings played their part in Barca's revival.

"Guardiola told me that it would be impossible to play like that in Italy because there have been years of tradition in Barcelona and even the youth team plays like the first team," Ranieri told La Repubblica.

"Guardiola said 'when I leave [Barcelona] it will not be easy to take this idea with me'.

And its worth noting Guardiola was the reserves team manager during Frank Rijkaard's reign.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43010.msg1227092#msg1227092 date=1291202305]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43010.msg1227083#msg1227083 date=1291201710]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43010.msg1227077#msg1227077 date=1291201212]
There's a difference between a manager that have "won fuck all", but only been around a few years, and look promising. And a manager that's been around a decade and has only had two successful seasons.

If you haven't won much, it's not as bad if you haven't been given the opportunity. If you have been given the oopportunity and failed it's a different matter.
[/quote]
Exactly.

It's quite simple really.
[/quote]So we can go young if they havnt had a chance yet, but not if they have won league and European cups?
I dont get the assumption that Rijkaard is a failure. He took over an awful barcelona side spent 30m quid and won league titles and a European cup. He left behind (after his 5 years in charge) Xavi, Messi, Valdes, Iniesta, Bojan, Puyol, Marquez etc the better part of the team that has been the best in Europe for almost a decade. I really dont understand why all the things that Barcelona have achieved are being credited elsewhere and Frank is just being saddled as a passenger.
He created a dynasty. He shipped out the old and revolutionised the team. How many of the first team pre-rijkaard came through the academy?

[/quote]
Based on your post mate I've decided to believe more in Rijkaard. There's some very good points in there and some I hadn't really thought of to be hoenst.

Still not my first choice but we certainly could do worse than him.
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1226952#msg1226952 date=1291192118]
But then again he want Villa Boas because he's maybe going to win the Portuguese league with Porto and has won fuck all before.
[/quote]

That said, given a relegation threatened team in his 1st club managerial post, he managed to steer them to 11th place (out of 16) and semifinal of the Portuguese League Cup. Rijkaard 's similar debut job with Sparta Rotterdam saw him being relegated.

Not trying to 'root' for Boas but he's not some lucky guy who landed the Porto job out of his Mourinho connections.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43010.msg1227092#msg1227092 date=1291202305]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43010.msg1227083#msg1227083 date=1291201710]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43010.msg1227077#msg1227077 date=1291201212]
There's a difference between a manager that have "won fuck all", but only been around a few years, and look promising. And a manager that's been around a decade and has only had two successful seasons.

If you haven't won much, it's not as bad if you haven't been given the opportunity. If you have been given the oopportunity and failed it's a different matter.
[/quote]
Exactly.

It's quite simple really.
[/quote]So we can go young if they havnt had a chance yet, but not if they have won league and European cups?
I dont get the assumption that Rijkaard is a failure. He took over an awful barcelona side spent 30m quid and won league titles and a European cup. He left behind (after his 5 years in charge) Xavi, Messi, Valdes, Iniesta, Bojan, Puyol, Marquez etc the better part of the team that has been the best in Europe for almost a decade. I really dont understand why all the things that Barcelona have achieved are being credited elsewhere and Frank is just being saddled as a passenger.
He created a dynasty. He shipped out the old and revolutionised the team. How many of the first team pre-rijkaard came through the academy?

[/quote]

He started at the same time as Begiristain, it's safe to say that since leaving Barca Riijkaard has not been a success everywhere else and Barcelona have flourished during Begiristain's tenure as Director of Football. So if one of them was to take the credit, or the lions share of the credit, you'd have to think Begiristain is the man.

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43010.msg1227118#msg1227118 date=1291204998]

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.

[/quote]

Spectacularly in debt too
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43010.msg1227121#msg1227121 date=1291205497]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43010.msg1227118#msg1227118 date=1291204998]

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.

[/quote]

Spectacularly in debt too
[/quote]

With most of their best players being free, it is a rather odd state of affairs. Anyone would think they'd spunked hundreds of millions on not very good players or something.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43010.msg1227124#msg1227124 date=1291205633]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43010.msg1227121#msg1227121 date=1291205497]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43010.msg1227118#msg1227118 date=1291204998]

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.

[/quote]

Spectacularly in debt too
[/quote]

With most of their best players being free, it is a rather odd state of affairs. Anyone would think they'd spunked hundreds of millions on not very good players or something.
[/quote]

They didn't had any shirt sponsors did they? And with the squad they were building, how many players will be good enough to oust those out of the team? Note the trend of their early day signings vs the latter ones and its not hard to see.

There are obviously plenty more examples. Borussia Dortmund for instance, has a DOF Michael Zorc, working alongside Klopp.

Seville's DOF is well known too. Don't think its coincidental that these clubs have been noted for their academy outputs. DOF don't just splash the cash on first team players.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=43010.msg1227066#msg1227066 date=1291200583]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1227052#msg1227052 date=1291200045]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43010.msg1227026#msg1227026 date=1291199037]
Our shortlist is hopefully narrowed down to the following three young, talented managers:

Boas
Deschamps
Laudrup
[/quote]

Not one of these has done anything to prove they're better than Rijkaard let alone to be good enough to manage us.
[/quote]

This isn't true.
[/quote]

Well what have these three won that Rijkaard hasn't?
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1227149#msg1227149 date=1291208271]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=43010.msg1227066#msg1227066 date=1291200583]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1227052#msg1227052 date=1291200045]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43010.msg1227026#msg1227026 date=1291199037]
Our shortlist is hopefully narrowed down to the following three young, talented managers:

Boas
Deschamps
Laudrup
[/quote]

Not one of these has done anything to prove they're better than Rijkaard let alone to be good enough to manage us.
[/quote]

This isn't true.
[/quote]

Breaking a domination in the form of 1st title in 18 years? 😛

Well what have these three won that Rijkaard hasn't?
[/quote]
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43010.msg1227077#msg1227077 date=1291201212]
There's a difference between a manager that have "won fuck all", but only been around a few years, and look promising. And a manager that's been around a decade and has only had two successful seasons.

If you haven't won much, it's not as bad if you haven't been given the opportunity. If you have been given the oopportunity and failed it's a different matter.
[/quote]

Bollocks. Really.

Rijkaard did a hell of a job at Barca. He took a rather bad Barcelona team to the league and a European cup.

Boas had how many seasons?
 
[quote author=Binny link=topic=43010.msg1227117#msg1227117 date=1291204899]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1226952#msg1226952 date=1291192118]
But then again he want Villa Boas because he's maybe going to win the Portuguese league with Porto and has won fuck all before.
[/quote]

That said, given a relegation threatened team in his 1st club managerial post, he managed to steer them to 11th place (out of 16) and semifinal of the Portuguese League Cup. Rijkaard 's similar debut job with Sparta Rotterdam saw him being relegated.

Not trying to 'root' for Boas but he's not some lucky guy who landed the Porto job out of his Mourinho connections.
[/quote]

I didn't say that he was lucky.

I think he would be too much of a gamble. We really can't afford that.
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1227154#msg1227154 date=1291208762]
[quote author=Binny link=topic=43010.msg1227117#msg1227117 date=1291204899]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1226952#msg1226952 date=1291192118]
But then again he want Villa Boas because he's maybe going to win the Portuguese league with Porto and has won fuck all before.
[/quote]

That said, given a relegation threatened team in his 1st club managerial post, he managed to steer them to 11th place (out of 16) and semifinal of the Portuguese League Cup. Rijkaard 's similar debut job with Sparta Rotterdam saw him being relegated.

Not trying to 'root' for Boas but he's not some lucky guy who landed the Porto job out of his Mourinho connections.
[/quote]

I didn't say that he was lucky.

I think he would be too much of a gamble. We really can't afford that.
[/quote]

Right mate, I was the one who did. Cos imo, Rijkaard was lucky to get the Barca job. I mean, what did he achieve prior to that appointment?

I'm not fight Boas or any other mentioned candidates' cause here, cos my preferred choice is someone who hasn't won major titles, despite his achievement. :-[

I just don't feel good about Rijkaard. :-X
 
He lead the Netherlands into the semi-final of Euro 2000 where they were kicked out on penos.
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1227166#msg1227166 date=1291209384]
He lead the Netherlands into the semi-final of Euro 2000 where they were kicked out on penos.
[/quote]

They were second favourites to win the tournament, mainly to do with the fact that they were playing at home, as they had only won 4 of 16 games in the run up to it.

I'm looking for a manager that has vastly over achieved. I don't think Rijkaard fits that bill. He's better than what we have of course, but that's not enough.
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1227166#msg1227166 date=1291209384]
He lead the Netherlands into the semi-final of Euro 2000 where they were kicked out on penos.
[/quote]

I was referring more tn terms of club management. Think he had a lot to thank his reputation for that earned him this big 'break'.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43010.msg1227118#msg1227118 date=1291204998]

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.

[/quote]

but is that success not in a league where all clubs use such a system, thereby suggesting that barcelona's particular DOF is better than other clubs' DOFs, and actually doing sweet FA to prove that it's the system per se that's working at all?

in a similarly logically flawless way, doesn't ferguson's success over 20 years at man utd suggest that the british way of doing things is best?
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43010.msg1227175#msg1227175 date=1291209820]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43010.msg1227118#msg1227118 date=1291204998]

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.

[/quote]

but is that success not in a league where all clubs use such a system, thereby suggesting that barcelona's particular DOF is better than other clubs' DOFs, and actually doing sweet FA to prove that it's the system per se that's working at all?

in a similarly logically flawless way, doesn't ferguson's success over 20 years at man utd suggest that the british way of doing things is best?
[/quote]

But they have won CL twice during this time, that should prove something.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43010.msg1227175#msg1227175 date=1291209820]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43010.msg1227118#msg1227118 date=1291204998]

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.

[/quote]

but is that success not in a league where all clubs use such a system, thereby suggesting that barcelona's particular DOF is better than other clubs' DOFs, and actually doing sweet FA to prove that it's the system per se that's working at all?

in a similarly logically flawless way, doesn't ferguson's success over 20 years at man utd suggest that the british way of doing things is best?



[/quote]

I think Ferguson and to a certain extent Wenger are the exceptions that prove the rule. The majority of top European sides use a DOF / Coach combo because it minimises the risk of making stupid mistakes.
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=43010.msg1227178#msg1227178 date=1291210056]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43010.msg1227175#msg1227175 date=1291209820]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43010.msg1227118#msg1227118 date=1291204998]

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.

[/quote]

but is that success not in a league where all clubs use such a system, thereby suggesting that barcelona's particular DOF is better than other clubs' DOFs, and actually doing sweet FA to prove that it's the system per se that's working at all?

in a similarly logically flawless way, doesn't ferguson's success over 20 years at man utd suggest that the british way of doing things is best?
[/quote]

But they have won CL twice during this time, that should prove something.
[/quote]


true, but english clubs haven't exactly been bad in the CL over the last 6 years, have they? in fact they've been rather dominant.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43010.msg1227182#msg1227182 date=1291210266]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=43010.msg1227178#msg1227178 date=1291210056]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=43010.msg1227175#msg1227175 date=1291209820]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43010.msg1227118#msg1227118 date=1291204998]

EDIT: and for the sake of making a point I've long been arguing - there's a club that succeeded with the model of Director of Football / Coach. Pretty fucking spectacularly too.

[/quote]

but is that success not in a league where all clubs use such a system, thereby suggesting that barcelona's particular DOF is better than other clubs' DOFs, and actually doing sweet FA to prove that it's the system per se that's working at all?

in a similarly logically flawless way, doesn't ferguson's success over 20 years at man utd suggest that the british way of doing things is best?
[/quote]

But they have won CL twice during this time, that should prove something.
[/quote]


true, but english clubs haven't exactly been bad in the CL over the last 6 years, have they? in fact they've been rather dominant.
[/quote]

Yep true, I'm not saying the English way can't work. I feel the continental way is more risk free though and doesn't rely on one person too much.

Unfortunately the most important factor for both models to work is how much money is available.
 
i'm not saying one's definitely better than the other either, just that to get a really good idea you'd need to see both appraoches working in the same league, as we did with spurs and now liverpool. i don't know if our managerial system's ever been tried on the continent tbf.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43010.msg1227171#msg1227171 date=1291209623]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=43010.msg1227166#msg1227166 date=1291209384]
He lead the Netherlands into the semi-final of Euro 2000 where they were kicked out on penos.
[/quote]

They were second favourites to win the tournament, mainly to do with the fact that they were playing at home, as they had only won 4 of 16 games in the run up to it.

I'm looking for a manager that has vastly over achieved. I don't think Rijkaard fits that bill. He's better than what we have of course, but that's not enough.
[/quote]

How the bookies rate the chances of a team to win is not relevant here.
 
Ok... What is relevant is that it shows that they didn't do any better than everyone expected them to do. And I'm unsure as to why you pointed to that in backing Rijkaard, when we need more than a manager that achieves what's generally expected beforehand*.


*Although I would be quite happy with that now, we'd be a few places higher in the table.
 
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