Downing

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355534#msg1355534 date=1309096716]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355532#msg1355532 date=1309096482]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355528#msg1355528 date=1309096300]
So you're advocating the signing of a player you're describing as mediocre for 20m ?

You mental bellend.

Downing is decent and a marginal improvement, but not worth anywhere near 20m.
[/quote]

easy with the name calling.

I'm not advocating anything, I'm saying signing players isn't easy and at level you have to trust the manager or what's the point of having him in charge.
[/quote]

Spidey you're defending the signing of Downing for 20m, while saying he's mediocre and everyone knows it. And also saying we need to trust the manager, why ?

You're all over the place.

If history has shown us anything in football it's that managers will waste money. 86% of money spent on transfers doesn't have a positive effect on a team - according to recent studies. I'd argue the manager is the last person we should trust on transfers given that.
[/quote]

I think 'defending' is a little strong. if 'I' were given 20m I wouldn't buy downing but I can kinda see why it is being done.
I think downing is kenny's top choice (not mine but hey, I'm not the manager) and villa have just sold young so there is no way we were going to get downing on the cheap.
sure, we could turn our attentions to the cheaper n'zog (for example) but if kenny has identified downing as integral to his plans I give a few million isn't going to sway him. also, as I've said competition for the truly talented like sanchez, hazard, martinez is going to be fierce with clubs in a far healthier position than we find ourselves.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

downings a bit better than mediocre really isnt he, im not a massive fan of his but he'll deffo improve our squad
a squad that, by the end of the season, looked like they could be challenging for top 4 if it wasnt for the abysmal start

 

[dee]

Couple more days of this and Neil will write another 'Yous are all horrid to me, I'm off' note.

Go easy on the lad or we'll have to endure anothe nauseating 'Please come back, we love you really' thread.

 

[RedZeppelin]

I'm not desperate to sign Downing and he's not worth anywhere near 20m but if we sign him I don't think he'll be half as bad as people make out . He won't be world class but I reckon he could easily add to the team in the same was as Park or even valencia do at united .

Also , who else is there out there that is decent or even willing to come to us ? . Just because we've a massive scouting system etc doesn't mean they should find some unknown from the back of beyond that is amazing . Personally i don't think there is an abundance of talent out there and most the top players are already at top clubs making transfers so much more difficult .

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355538#msg1355538 date=1309097296]
the only point I can see him making is that we shouldn't complain even when Kenny is making decisions we think are stupid.

I think that's obscene.
[/quote]

we can complain, of couse we can but we see why kenny is doing what he is doing even if we don't agree with it.

okay put it this way;

carroll - 35m
INSANE! but I can 'see' that the club wanted to put down a marker in case we were percieved as has beens home and abroad and when you are trying to attract talent in the future perception/appearance is everything

adam 8m
I actually think this is a fair price

henderson 20m
I have seen next to nothing of this kid so you have to assume kenny is paying a premium for potential. do I agree with that? well, if you can't buy the best thing in football buy players with the potential to be the best thing in football.

downing 20m
a HUGE fee. but villa wont going to let him cheaply and kenny may not fancy the likes of n'zog (attitude) or even mata because he may not settle, look a reyes.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355550#msg1355550 date=1309097997]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355538#msg1355538 date=1309097296]
the only point I can see him making is that we shouldn't complain even when Kenny is making decisions we think are stupid.

I think that's obscene.
[/quote]

we can complain, of couse we can but we see why kenny is doing what he is doing even if we don't agree with it.

okay put it this way;

carroll - 35m
INSANE! but I can 'see' that the club wanted to put down a marker in case we were percieved as has beens home and abroad and when you are trying to attract talent in the future perception/appearance is everything

adam 8m
I actually think this is a fair price

henderson 20m
I have seen next to nothing of this kid so you have to assume kenny is paying a premium for potential. do I agree with that? well, if you can't buy the best thing in football buy players with the potential to be the best thing in football.

downing 20m
a HUGE fee. but villa wont going to let him cheaply and kenny may not fancy the likes of n'zog (attitude) or even mata because he may not settle, look a reyes.


[/quote]

And where is that 83m going to get us ?

 

[Insignificance]

downing 20m
a HUGE fee. but villa wont going to let him cheaply and kenny may not fancy the likes of n'zog (attitude) or even mata because he may not settle, look a reyes.

Makes you wonder what Kenny actually felt about Rafa?

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355553#msg1355553 date=1309098146]
And where is that 83m going to get us ?
[/quote]

The scary thing is that last year we probably spent half of that sum paying for G and Hs loan!

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=44931.msg1355556#msg1355556 date=1309098228]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355553#msg1355553 date=1309098146]
And where is that 83m going to get us ?
[/quote]

The scary thing is that last year we probably spent half of that sum paying for G and Hs loan!
[/quote]

Incorrect, but anyway let's move on.

What is that 83m going to get us ? A team worthy of challenging for fourth ?

If that's all it is we're wasting our money.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Dee link=topic=44931.msg1355544#msg1355544 date=1309097809]
Couple more days of this and Neil will write another 'Yous are all horrid to me, I'm off' note.

Go easy on the lad or we'll have to endure anothe nauseating 'Please come back, we love you really' thread.
[/quote]

naw, I'm alright 🙂

to anyone who is confused by my opinion, simply

1. downing v maxi
I think maxi is the better player but I think he has been mostly shit for liverpool and it will take more than two hattricks to change that opinion. I've been so unimpressed by maxi's OVERALL contriubtion that I couldn't care less he wants out.

2. downing for 20m
I too think we can do better with 20m but at the same time I'm nt going to fling myself off a cliff if this does indeed happen because we are so desparate for a left midfieder I actually have nightmares of the season starting without us having addressed this position.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355557#msg1355557 date=1309098312]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=44931.msg1355556#msg1355556 date=1309098228]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355553#msg1355553 date=1309098146]
And where is that 83m going to get us ?
[/quote]

The scary thing is that last year we probably spent half of that sum paying for G and Hs loan!
[/quote]

Incorrect, but anyway let's move on.

What is that 83m going to get us ? A team worthy of challenging for fourth ?

If that's all it is we're wasting our money.
[/quote]

champions league football and the money that comes with it plus a squad depth that has needed addressing since the houllier days.
thats not wasting money

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355550#msg1355550 date=1309097997]
carroll - 35m
adam 8m
henderson 20m
downing 20m
[/quote]

Where do these figures come from ? Do they include bonuses for acheivements (in which case they can't be included unless we fulfill them : see Aquilani for ref.).

I thought the actual figures (w/o bonuses) were :
adam 6.5m
henderson 16m
downing 15m

No ?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355553#msg1355553 date=1309098146]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355550#msg1355550 date=1309097997]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355538#msg1355538 date=1309097296]
the only point I can see him making is that we shouldn't complain even when Kenny is making decisions we think are stupid.

I think that's obscene.
[/quote]

we can complain, of couse we can but we see why kenny is doing what he is doing even if we don't agree with it.

okay put it this way;

carroll - 35m
INSANE! but I can 'see' that the club wanted to put down a marker in case we were percieved as has beens home and abroad and when you are trying to attract talent in the future perception/appearance is everything

adam 8m
I actually think this is a fair price

henderson 20m
I have seen next to nothing of this kid so you have to assume kenny is paying a premium for potential. do I agree with that? well, if you can't buy the best thing in football buy players with the potential to be the best thing in football.

downing 20m
a HUGE fee. but villa wont going to let him cheaply and kenny may not fancy the likes of n'zog (attitude) or even mata because he may not settle, look a reyes.


[/quote]

And where is that 83m going to get us ?
[/quote]

I think a balanced team will have us challenging for a top 4 position.
I have no idea how kenny is going to squeeze everyone into the team

I think people are under estimating the damage someone like carroll will do with proper service (downing).
I think people are also under estimating how much we've missed someone providing precise passing from a deep position (adam).
I don't even think we have to be 'amazing' to challenge just COMPETENT as we were all over the place at the start of the season.

I think the signings will give us depth and balance, and yes we should perhaps be doing better with transfers but it isn't the end of the world (you'd hope).

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355557#msg1355557 date=1309098312]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=44931.msg1355556#msg1355556 date=1309098228]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355553#msg1355553 date=1309098146]
And where is that 83m going to get us ?
[/quote]

The scary thing is that last year we probably spent half of that sum paying for G and Hs loan!
[/quote]

Incorrect, but anyway let's move on.

What is that 83m going to get us ? A team worthy of challenging for fourth ?

If that's all it is we're wasting our money.
[/quote]

Havent we had interest payment in that brackets the last years?

I agree with you. For an outlay of 80 + millions we should get better return than be able to compete for top 4. That we would do with our squad allready.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

I thought it was £16m for Henderson too, yet every still seems to be quoting £20m.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=44931.msg1355577#msg1355577 date=1309099483]
I thought it was £16m for Henderson too, yet every still seems to be quoting £20m.
[/quote]

Its easier to round up 8)

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=44931.msg1355577#msg1355577 date=1309099483]
I thought it was £16m for Henderson too, yet every still seems to be quoting £20m.
[/quote]

I said 20m because that what everyone else is saying. has the true figure been confirmed?

 

[RedZeppelin]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355557#msg1355557 date=1309098312]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=44931.msg1355556#msg1355556 date=1309098228]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355553#msg1355553 date=1309098146]
And where is that 83m going to get us ?
[/quote]

The scary thing is that last year we probably spent half of that sum paying for G and Hs loan!
[/quote]

Incorrect, but anyway let's move on.

What is that 83m going to get us ? A team worthy of challenging for fourth ?

If that's all it is we're wasting our money.
[/quote]

City spent like 300m to challenge for 3rd and 4th ! .

 

[Modo]

This is what were getting:

[flash=400,300]http://www.youtube.com/v/8UGeUF1_JUg&feature=player_embedded#at=118[/flash]

This video kinda confirms that he's supposed to provide Carroll with crosses.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44931.msg1355525#msg1355525 date=1309096125]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355523#msg1355523 date=1309095695]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355519#msg1355519 date=1309095576]
Well this thread just say so much for this 'In Kenny We Trust' eh !
[/quote]

Wanting us to buy better players and to not spend money on average doesnt mean faith is lost with Kenny Dalglsh.
[/quote]

Problem with that view avvy is that people complaining are giving an impression that they could do better with regards to signings. I understand that the ones so far don't inspire but FFS the international window isn't open yet.

And re: scouting network, how do we know we weren't looking at hernandez? And even if we weren't so what? No one could predict he'd do this well. It's about taking risks which I don't think Kenny wants to do yet as we're so frail across the park. He's buying young players with sell on value so if needs be we can shift. Not over the hill frees.
[/quote]

Fabs, I'm not exactly panicking just yet. I myself told Modo to chill not 3 days ago since the international window wasnt open. But to express satisfaction with our spending thus far, as we're seeing from some on here just seems to me to be uterly insane.

I don't want to see inspiring signings, I just want to see us getting the best quality we can, and at the monies we're seein, we should be getting much better.

If I were Rafa I'd actually be slightly amused; some of these names are exactly the kinds of names we'd have been linked with 3 or 4 years ago. But it would be because we couldnt afford better and had to scrabble around. Now we can afford better, but we're seeing the same names.

Then we re-assure ourselves by saying that clubs at our level should only aim to attract these kinds of players because we've been reduced to that level.

I'll be the first one to admit that the very best players would not come to a club which isnt in the CL next year.

But I'm also confident that once the window opens we'll be linked to better players; all of whom now at clubs that are either not going to be in the CL next year, or from clubs smaller trhan we are. And we must not forget that we are STILL a big club, and 2 years out of the CL doesnt change that.

It's a good thing Juventus doesnt read internet forums, othewise they'd be convinced thay only be able to bring in Rossi.

(Paolo, not Giuseppe)

I also dont see how anyone can say that we're playing it safe; the fact remains that we're spending huge sums on largely unproven talent. And that even includes Andy Carroll. The risk levels are still phenomenally high, Fabs.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Good post Avvy.

 

[Modo]

I agree very good post Avvy .

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355527#msg1355527 date=1309096291]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355523#msg1355523 date=1309095695]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355519#msg1355519 date=1309095576]
Well this thread just say so much for this 'In Kenny We Trust' eh !
[/quote]

Wanting us to buy better players and to not spend money on average doesnt mean faith is lost with Kenny Dalglsh.
[/quote]

Actually it says a lot. Henderson, Adam and Downing are all now getting crapped on in their respective threads (or others). So that begs the question that if Kenny & Comolli think they add something to our team/squad, that they are what we need, and they believe they are worth the respective fees we have paid (are about to pay) how come so many people on 6CM think they are ; shite /average/not-worth-the-money ? Give you one guess what it says.
[/quote]

Just the one guess?

I'll give you two.

'Some people aren't so blinkered'.

Kenny Dalglish is our greatest ever player, and is my favourite ever player. The fact that I pretended to be a British citizen so I could ask my MP to support the Early Day Motion supporting Kenny's knighthood should tell you what I think about him.

But I also think he's not inafliible, and that he is capable of making bad transfers, because guess what? He has.

So if I think we're making expensive mistakes in the transfer market I'll say so.

 

[Fabio]

Indeed avvy, a fine reply


If by the end of the window we've only signed downing, Henderson, Adam and a lb I won't be impressed as they are risks themselves, but at least downing has proven he can play, Henderson is one for the future and will develop under kuyt and gerrard. Adam is a pass master who may not be as good as xabi, but is the closest we can afford at the minute.

Every transfer has risks, but ones from weaker leagues (e g neymar, Lucas ) always take time to adapt. Ones from Spain can hit the ground running but normally they are players who are used to a kicking. Are mata and banega those type of players? I'm unconvinced. The id love mata but I fear he'd take time settling in.

Yes these players are expensive that we're buying, but there aren't many cheaper. Our scouting network is dire and it will take time to fix. Hopefully this time next year we have uncovered some gems.

I would like some players that would improve ts dramatically, but the question of is, do they fit in with how Kenny wants us playing?

 

[Avmenon]

keni and ros are right about what? downing is mediocre and we should sign better? that's hardly a news flash but there are lots of factors to consider;
we aren't in europe

for two seasons in a row we've failed to challenge.

our star player moved on because he felt we weren't challeging (whether that is true or not that IS why Torres moved on)

other teams can play higher wages

we aren't located in the capital and it rains here...a lot.

we are still a big draw but we aren't the biggest draw so it is a little nieve to expect the best players. and we are going to have to crawl our way up the table so we are linked with the hazards' of this world rather than the downings. I can understand mata's name being brought up every five seconds but not the likes of martinez as we'd have to beat off europes top teams in the CL, AND pay him higher wages AND convince he to come to the cold NW. we managed it with suarez but that is looking to be increasingly the exception rather then the rule.
[/quote]

I actually dont think Downing is mediocre at all, nor for that matter do I think Adam is mediocre.

The fact that you do, and still advocate these transfers does freak me out though.

There are reasons why we can't attract thev ery best talent (though I think you overplay the issue of rain a great deal)

I suspect it rains as much on Salford as it does on Anfield.

I'm just saying that we can, and more importantly SHOULD be doing better in the transfer market. As said before, we're not done in the market just yet. But that doesnt mean we should be jumping for joy with the names we;'re being linked with ,especially at the fees we're seeing.

That's all.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44931.msg1355600#msg1355600 date=1309101497]
Indeed avvy, a fine reply


If by the end of the window we've only signed downing, Henderson, Adam and a lb I won't be impressed as they are risks themselves, but at least downing has proven he can play, Henderson is one for the future and will develop under kuyt and gerrard. Adam is a pass master who may not be as good as xabi, but is the closest we can afford at the minute.

Every transfer has risks, but ones from weaker leagues (e g neymar, Lucas ) always take time to adapt. Ones from Spain can hit the ground running but normally they are players who are used to a kicking. Are mata and banega those type of players? I'm unconvinced. The id love mata but I fear he'd take time settling in.

Yes these players are expensive that we're buying, but there aren't many cheaper. Our scouting network is dire and it will take time to fix. Hopefully this time next year we have uncovered some gems.

I would like some players that would improve ts dramatically, but the question of is, do they fit in with how Kenny wants us playing?
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that our scouting system is dire? How do you mean? Because we didn't find the likes of Hernandez before Man U?
I think we're doing quite well considering that we got two promising irish lads, Shelvey, Sterling and Suso.
If it's about the senior team, I'd say that the issue isn't scouting.

To be honest I don't really know how Kenny wants us to play, but the trait we're looking for in basically every player we've looked at is the ability to pass and move.
Now Mata would be a shoe in...and so would Aquilani.

 

[Judge Jules]

I guess the underlying question here is whether (and, if so, to what extent) we should be bothered by the fact that we're not - yet - making signings which have the "wow" factor. I have to say it doesn't greatly bother me. Even the Mancs, in their long climb back up to the top (which, let's not forget, took them five years longer than we've gone so far since our previous title win) had to start with reasonable rather than stellar signings and get 100% out of them in order to progress. The real question is whether we have a management team which can accomplish that with such players. I'm confident that we do.

 

[Fabio]

The question is over the first team. With youth prospects its basically who pays the most wins generally, as people font want yo get into bidding wars over prospects.

Hernandez is the best examples of a player of relative obscurity who's a world beater. How did utd find him? Unfortunately there seems to be an emphasis on hype purchases in the press and industry in general.

 

[Holle]

What baffles me is that the Downing transfer doesn't apply to the 'Moneyball'-approach of FSG or does it?

I mean on the basis of a 20 million pound transfer there isn't a chance to sell him with making profit. And he's in an age where there'll be little to no resale value in short time.

Either I didn't understand what Moneyball is about or this is indeed a strange one.

 

[Fabio]

It won't be 20m

I hate the fact people are rounding up the figures for greater impact