Downing
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it's a little unfair to call them 'bad transfers' until they come and fail. at the minute 35m is a shocking amount of money but who is say he wont justify that fee this coming season?
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355643#msg1355643 date=1309104936]
it's a little unfair to call them 'bad transfers' until they come and fail. at the minute 35m is a shocking amount of money but who is say he wont justify that fee this coming season?
[/quote]
Quite
it's a little unfair to call them 'bad transfers' until they come and fail. at the minute 35m is a shocking amount of money but who is say he wont justify that fee this coming season?
[/quote]
Quite
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355643#msg1355643 date=1309104936]
it's a little unfair to call them 'bad transfers' until they come and fail. at the minute 35m is a shocking amount of money but who is say he wont justify that fee this coming season?
[/quote]
You're right in that it's too soon to call them bad.
It's also too soon to say they're good, or that dissatisfaction amounts to treason against Kenny.
When I said 'bad' I was talking about some bad transfers years ago; not now.
Everyone talks about the magical trinity of DiggerAldoBeardo. There were others which were, less than stellar,shall we say.
it's a little unfair to call them 'bad transfers' until they come and fail. at the minute 35m is a shocking amount of money but who is say he wont justify that fee this coming season?
[/quote]
You're right in that it's too soon to call them bad.
It's also too soon to say they're good, or that dissatisfaction amounts to treason against Kenny.
When I said 'bad' I was talking about some bad transfers years ago; not now.
Everyone talks about the magical trinity of DiggerAldoBeardo. There were others which were, less than stellar,shall we say.
I think it's legit to say at this stage that some of these deals look questionable, while obv.reserving final judgment until we see how they pan out in practice.
Having said that, I wouldn't include the Carroll deal in that category just yet. There were particular reasons for paying that fee at that time.
Having said that, I wouldn't include the Carroll deal in that category just yet. There were particular reasons for paying that fee at that time.
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44931.msg1355645#msg1355645 date=1309105073]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355643#msg1355643 date=1309104936]
it's a little unfair to call them 'bad transfers' until they come and fail. at the minute 35m is a shocking amount of money but who is say he wont justify that fee this coming season?
[/quote]
Quite
[/quote]
however, it is a big outlay for players who (downing aside) may not play week in week out
kuyt-------meireles----lucas-------downing
-------------------gerrard--------------------
--------------------suarez--------------------
not exactly far fetched is it?
can henderson push past kuyt in pecking order?
can adam push past meireles in pecking order?
will carroll play weak in weak out up front?
a lot of money to spend on potiential bench warmers but we have no idea about kenny's plans and who will/wont play.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355643#msg1355643 date=1309104936]
it's a little unfair to call them 'bad transfers' until they come and fail. at the minute 35m is a shocking amount of money but who is say he wont justify that fee this coming season?
[/quote]
Quite
[/quote]
however, it is a big outlay for players who (downing aside) may not play week in week out
kuyt-------meireles----lucas-------downing
-------------------gerrard--------------------
--------------------suarez--------------------
not exactly far fetched is it?
can henderson push past kuyt in pecking order?
can adam push past meireles in pecking order?
will carroll play weak in weak out up front?
a lot of money to spend on potiential bench warmers but we have no idea about kenny's plans and who will/wont play.
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=44931.msg1355653#msg1355653 date=1309105913]
Fuck off spider, bench warmers - AKA HAVING A SQUAD.
our squad was pish last season and has been for some time, competition for places should be welcomed!
[/quote]
But in a season where we have no European football at all, it is mainly league footie until January. There aint to many games, and to stock up a very expensive squad with little or no need to rotate them is a bit uneccesary.
Fuck off spider, bench warmers - AKA HAVING A SQUAD.
our squad was pish last season and has been for some time, competition for places should be welcomed!
[/quote]
But in a season where we have no European football at all, it is mainly league footie until January. There aint to many games, and to stock up a very expensive squad with little or no need to rotate them is a bit uneccesary.
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=44931.msg1355653#msg1355653 date=1309105913]
Fuck off spider, bench warmers - AKA HAVING A SQUAD.
our squad was pish last season and has been for some time, competition for places should be welcomed!
[/quote]
I'm speculating, we have no idea who will play more often than not, for instance kenny may want to go with natural width and drops kuyt down the pecking order in favour of henderson (I doubt it ha ha). it may turn out that every one of kenny's summer purchases plays more often than not.
Fuck off spider, bench warmers - AKA HAVING A SQUAD.
our squad was pish last season and has been for some time, competition for places should be welcomed!
[/quote]
I'm speculating, we have no idea who will play more often than not, for instance kenny may want to go with natural width and drops kuyt down the pecking order in favour of henderson (I doubt it ha ha). it may turn out that every one of kenny's summer purchases plays more often than not.
I previously said that we'll possibly have the most expensive bench in the premiership.
As it stands its Kuyt vs Downing, meireles vs Adam and gerrard vs Henderson.
We might do some rotating and Meireles might leave, we'll know soon enough.
However IMO we still need someone to play behind Carroll.
As it stands its Kuyt vs Downing, meireles vs Adam and gerrard vs Henderson.
We might do some rotating and Meireles might leave, we'll know soon enough.
However IMO we still need someone to play behind Carroll.
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=44931.msg1355654#msg1355654 date=1309106029]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=44931.msg1355653#msg1355653 date=1309105913]
Fuck off spider, bench warmers - AKA HAVING A SQUAD.
our squad was pish last season and has been for some time, competition for places should be welcomed!
[/quote]
But in a season where we have no European football at all, it is mainly league footie until January. There aint to many games, and to stock up a very expensive squad with little or no need to rotate them is a bit uneccesary.
[/quote]
Gerrard won't last a full season and there's nothing to say everyone else will. Besides I think it's fair to say out minimum target is European football of some sort for 2012-13 so we will need that squad
Besides that though, I very much doubt we spent £16m on Henderson so he could warm the bench given our current situation
We've got a long way to go this summer and I have no doubt we'll see a fair few players get the boot/ walk
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=44931.msg1355653#msg1355653 date=1309105913]
Fuck off spider, bench warmers - AKA HAVING A SQUAD.
our squad was pish last season and has been for some time, competition for places should be welcomed!
[/quote]
But in a season where we have no European football at all, it is mainly league footie until January. There aint to many games, and to stock up a very expensive squad with little or no need to rotate them is a bit uneccesary.
[/quote]
Gerrard won't last a full season and there's nothing to say everyone else will. Besides I think it's fair to say out minimum target is European football of some sort for 2012-13 so we will need that squad
Besides that though, I very much doubt we spent £16m on Henderson so he could warm the bench given our current situation
We've got a long way to go this summer and I have no doubt we'll see a fair few players get the boot/ walk
[quote author=Modo link=topic=44931.msg1355663#msg1355663 date=1309106934]
I previously said that we'll possibly have the most expensive bench in the premiership.
As it stands its Kuyt vs Downing, meireles vs Adam and gerrard vs Henderson.
We might do some rotating and Meireles might leave, we'll know soon enough.
However IMO we still need someone to play behind Carroll.
[/quote]
kuyt vs downing? downing plays on the left.
I previously said that we'll possibly have the most expensive bench in the premiership.
As it stands its Kuyt vs Downing, meireles vs Adam and gerrard vs Henderson.
We might do some rotating and Meireles might leave, we'll know soon enough.
However IMO we still need someone to play behind Carroll.
[/quote]
kuyt vs downing? downing plays on the left.
He's played on the right a lot for Villa lately, but I'm not sure that really matters. I agree with Modo to the extent that, if Deadly is being considered as a wide player, we might well not see both him and Downing in the side at the same time. Where I disagree with Modo is that I reckon Deadly will be used mainly as an option up front, so I don't think the question is likely to arise.
Nice post Avvy - but I think as soon as we walk away from these silly price tags that clubs are putting on players, the asking prices will go down overall. and the risk factor as well. We are dealing with the Carroll effect, if you will, which will lessen. I am upset at these targets because this is our rebuilding phase and FSG won't always insert this kind of money. We have to get it right.
That said, Downing is another Antonio Valencia signing for me. He'll perform a function...he'll do a job fairly well, but won't be a flair player that will change games regularly.
Right now we may get the bigger players twice out of five when we compete with the other big clubs just because these players won't be sitting on The bench with us. We do have some selling points and we will be back in the CL. I think as a club we tend to sell ourselves short. Which is why we do things like hire managers like uncle Roy. But like Rafa or not, he put us in a position of continued visibility in Europe and European players do see us as one of the big guns. Like Juve.
That said, Downing is another Antonio Valencia signing for me. He'll perform a function...he'll do a job fairly well, but won't be a flair player that will change games regularly.
Right now we may get the bigger players twice out of five when we compete with the other big clubs just because these players won't be sitting on The bench with us. We do have some selling points and we will be back in the CL. I think as a club we tend to sell ourselves short. Which is why we do things like hire managers like uncle Roy. But like Rafa or not, he put us in a position of continued visibility in Europe and European players do see us as one of the big guns. Like Juve.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44931.msg1355675#msg1355675 date=1309109786]
He's played on the right a lot for Villa lately, but I'm not sure that really matters. I agree with Modo to the extent that, if Deadly is being considered as a wide player, we might well not see both him and Downing in the side at the same time. Where I disagree with Modo is that I reckon Deadly will be used mainly as an option up front, so I don't think the question is likely to arise.
[/quote]
Exactly what I meant. I dont see how Kuyt can be in the same line up with Suarez, Carroll and Downing. That is if we're not playing 4-4-2.
He's played on the right a lot for Villa lately, but I'm not sure that really matters. I agree with Modo to the extent that, if Deadly is being considered as a wide player, we might well not see both him and Downing in the side at the same time. Where I disagree with Modo is that I reckon Deadly will be used mainly as an option up front, so I don't think the question is likely to arise.
[/quote]
Exactly what I meant. I dont see how Kuyt can be in the same line up with Suarez, Carroll and Downing. That is if we're not playing 4-4-2.
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355599#msg1355599 date=1309101333]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355527#msg1355527 date=1309096291]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355523#msg1355523 date=1309095695]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355519#msg1355519 date=1309095576]
Well this thread just say so much for this 'In Kenny We Trust' eh !
[/quote]
Wanting us to buy better players and to not spend money on average doesnt mean faith is lost with Kenny Dalglsh.
[/quote]
Actually it says a lot. Henderson, Adam and Downing are all now getting crapped on in their respective threads (or others). So that begs the question that if Kenny & Comolli think they add something to our team/squad, that they are what we need, and they believe they are worth the respective fees we have paid (are about to pay) how come so many people on 6CM think they are ; shite /average/not-worth-the-money ? Give you one guess what it says.
[/quote]
Just the one guess?
I'll give you two.
'Some people aren't so blinkered'.
Kenny Dalglish is our greatest ever player, and is my favourite ever player. The fact that I pretended to be a British citizen so I could ask my MP to support the Early Day Motion supporting Kenny's knighthood should tell you what I think about him.
But I also think he's not inafliible, and that he is capable of making bad transfers, because guess what? He has.
So if I think we're making expensive mistakes in the transfer market I'll say so.
[/quote]
It's not about being blinkered. It's about being realistic. And you are mistaking loyalty for belief - two completely different concepts.
Some people on here seem to feel we can contend in the market with the likes of Barca, Real, AC or United & Chelsea. In general, for the moment, we can't. Funds in some cases aren't the issue, it's the lack of CL competition (whether I agree with that particular 'carrot' or not) and recent PL success. So that means it's more difficult, and in some cases impossible, to attract the players some people are expecting/demanding.
When it comes to buying English players on long contracts then the price rockets, and that's the way it's been for years. And now it's even more likely they are going to see their values increase as UEFA's rules start to have an effect. Yet still people complain, however the players we have bought (Carroll, Adam [yes - I know he's a Scot] & Henderson) all fit the Fenway criteria, as does Suarez, and all maybe fit both Kenny's and Comolli's too. All are young & still improving and hopefully will continue to do so.
Would they have been my choices ? Probably not even one of them (Suarez aside as I've been mentioning him for a while and was excited we bought him), but the others all have skills, PL experience and maybe more importantly should all add substantial improvement to our team/squad. Interestingly many posters have hardly even mentioned other players they would prefer as direct, viable, alternative options. They are more concerned with pouring scorn on either these players' abilities or the fees paid for them .. or both.
You said 'buy better players' ... OK which English players fill the criteria, remain within our budget and which are genuine options for us ? And you said 'average players' - are these new players average ? They obviously are not, they are all international players, meaning probably in the top 10% of British players in the PL. And all are highly rated, not on 6CM, but amongst managers and players in general.
Now I know you will now say, then why didn't we shop in Europe ? However for whatever reason, whether to comply with UEFA future regulations, PL experience, getting back to a British player base or being less willing to take a chance on foreign players who will wish to move on in 2 or 3 years (from our recent experiences) it seems the majority of our shopping is now being done at home .... and in that case I believe that our hands are largely tied in regard to the range of transfer fees possible to secure each player, and indeed which of the better players are actually realistic options.
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355527#msg1355527 date=1309096291]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355523#msg1355523 date=1309095695]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355519#msg1355519 date=1309095576]
Well this thread just say so much for this 'In Kenny We Trust' eh !
[/quote]
Wanting us to buy better players and to not spend money on average doesnt mean faith is lost with Kenny Dalglsh.
[/quote]
Actually it says a lot. Henderson, Adam and Downing are all now getting crapped on in their respective threads (or others). So that begs the question that if Kenny & Comolli think they add something to our team/squad, that they are what we need, and they believe they are worth the respective fees we have paid (are about to pay) how come so many people on 6CM think they are ; shite /average/not-worth-the-money ? Give you one guess what it says.
[/quote]
Just the one guess?
I'll give you two.
'Some people aren't so blinkered'.
Kenny Dalglish is our greatest ever player, and is my favourite ever player. The fact that I pretended to be a British citizen so I could ask my MP to support the Early Day Motion supporting Kenny's knighthood should tell you what I think about him.
But I also think he's not inafliible, and that he is capable of making bad transfers, because guess what? He has.
So if I think we're making expensive mistakes in the transfer market I'll say so.
[/quote]
It's not about being blinkered. It's about being realistic. And you are mistaking loyalty for belief - two completely different concepts.
Some people on here seem to feel we can contend in the market with the likes of Barca, Real, AC or United & Chelsea. In general, for the moment, we can't. Funds in some cases aren't the issue, it's the lack of CL competition (whether I agree with that particular 'carrot' or not) and recent PL success. So that means it's more difficult, and in some cases impossible, to attract the players some people are expecting/demanding.
When it comes to buying English players on long contracts then the price rockets, and that's the way it's been for years. And now it's even more likely they are going to see their values increase as UEFA's rules start to have an effect. Yet still people complain, however the players we have bought (Carroll, Adam [yes - I know he's a Scot] & Henderson) all fit the Fenway criteria, as does Suarez, and all maybe fit both Kenny's and Comolli's too. All are young & still improving and hopefully will continue to do so.
Would they have been my choices ? Probably not even one of them (Suarez aside as I've been mentioning him for a while and was excited we bought him), but the others all have skills, PL experience and maybe more importantly should all add substantial improvement to our team/squad. Interestingly many posters have hardly even mentioned other players they would prefer as direct, viable, alternative options. They are more concerned with pouring scorn on either these players' abilities or the fees paid for them .. or both.
You said 'buy better players' ... OK which English players fill the criteria, remain within our budget and which are genuine options for us ? And you said 'average players' - are these new players average ? They obviously are not, they are all international players, meaning probably in the top 10% of British players in the PL. And all are highly rated, not on 6CM, but amongst managers and players in general.
Now I know you will now say, then why didn't we shop in Europe ? However for whatever reason, whether to comply with UEFA future regulations, PL experience, getting back to a British player base or being less willing to take a chance on foreign players who will wish to move on in 2 or 3 years (from our recent experiences) it seems the majority of our shopping is now being done at home .... and in that case I believe that our hands are largely tied in regard to the range of transfer fees possible to secure each player, and indeed which of the better players are actually realistic options.
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355689#msg1355689 date=1309113763]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355599#msg1355599 date=1309101333]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355527#msg1355527 date=1309096291]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355523#msg1355523 date=1309095695]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355519#msg1355519 date=1309095576]
Well this thread just say so much for this 'In Kenny We Trust' eh !
[/quote]
Wanting us to buy better players and to not spend money on average doesnt mean faith is lost with Kenny Dalglsh.
[/quote]
Actually it says a lot. Henderson, Adam and Downing are all now getting crapped on in their respective threads (or others). So that begs the question that if Kenny & Comolli think they add something to our team/squad, that they are what we need, and they believe they are worth the respective fees we have paid (are about to pay) how come so many people on 6CM think they are ; shite /average/not-worth-the-money ? Give you one guess what it says.
[/quote]
Just the one guess?
I'll give you two.
'Some people aren't so blinkered'.
Kenny Dalglish is our greatest ever player, and is my favourite ever player. The fact that I pretended to be a British citizen so I could ask my MP to support the Early Day Motion supporting Kenny's knighthood should tell you what I think about him.
But I also think he's not inafliible, and that he is capable of making bad transfers, because guess what? He has.
So if I think we're making expensive mistakes in the transfer market I'll say so.
[/quote]
It's not about being blinkered. It's about being realistic. And you are mistaking loyalty for belief - two completely different concepts.
Some people on here seem to feel we can contend in the market with the likes of Barca, Real, AC or United & Chelsea. In general, for the moment, we can't. Funds in some cases aren't the issue, it's the lack of CL competition (whether I agree with that particular 'carrot' or not) and recent PL success. So that means it's more difficult, and in some cases impossible, to attract the players some people are expecting/demanding.
When it comes to buying English players on long contracts then the price rockets, and that's the way it's been for years. And now it's even more likely they are going to see their values increase as UEFA's rules start to have an effect. Yet still people complain, however the players we have bought (Carroll, Adam [yes - I know he's a Scot] & Henderson) all fit the Fenway criteria, as does Suarez, and all maybe fit both Kenny's and Comolli's too. All are young & still improving and hopefully will continue to do so.
Would they have been my choices ? Probably not even one of them (Suarez aside as I've been mentioning him for a while and was excited we bought him), but the others all have skills, PL experience and maybe more importantly should all add substantial improvement to our team/squad. Interestingly many posters have hardly even mentioned other players they would prefer as direct, viable, alternative options. They are more concerned with pouring scorn on either these players' abilities or the fees paid for them .. or both.
You said 'buy better players' ... OK which English players fill the criteria, remain within our budget and which are genuine options for us ? And you said 'average players' - are these new players average ? They obviously are not, they are all international players, meaning probably in the top 10% of British players in the PL. And all are highly rated, not on 6CM, but amongst managers and players in general.
Now I know you will now say, then why didn't we shop in Europe ? However for whatever reason, whether to comply with UEFA future regulations, PL experience, getting back to a British player base or being less willing to take a chance on foreign players who will wish to move on in 2 or 3 years (from our recent experiences) it seems the majority of our shopping is now being done at home .... and in that case I believe that our hands are largely tied in regard to the range of transfer fees possible to secure each player, and indeed which of the better players are actually realistic options.
[/quote]
What loyalty and belief are you talking about,Froggy?
You've been following Liverpool long enough to know that Kenny has had his own bad transfers, so I cant understand why you would regard questioning transfers made now as being somehow disloyal. I feel that it is actually a bit insulting.
As for the contention that we are a mediocre club that must content itself with mediocre players who dont mind not being in the Champions League and shouldnt try to secure better targets, well fair enough. That's certainly a view many on here share.
I hope our negotiating people have more belief and ambition though.
And that's because our very future depends on it, everyone is trumpeting Suarez as an exception to the norm, and in truth, we are only fit for the Downings of football. It's disheartening to think that so many think we couldnt do better, despite us still being a big name. Even if many of us dont believe that anymore, as you've suggested.
As for who I think we should get, I don't know. If that means I dont get to question whether or not we could better with players from elsewhere, then fair enough.
It's not even so much that I think the players we're linked with are bad or even mediocre. I dont think that, most of those names would actually improve us. It's just the idea that these deals are somehow good value and that these are the prices we have to pay in an inflated market.
That doesnt detract from the fact that the market is inflated because clubs like us have no qualms paying for unproven talent or players who've been at the most better than what we've had. As for the idea that we have to pay a premium for English talent and that the values are likely to increase, I'm of the view that not one of Carroll,Adam,Henderson,and Downing will be worth more i re-sale than what we're paying for them.
I dearly hope to be proven wrong, but I think I wont be. I'll be happy if they even keep their value.
As to whether there is a definite change to our transfer policy to get in only British talent irrespective of value and availability of foreign talent, if this is true I hope the players we bring in get the job done. Because if not we're going to be facing serious problems in 3 years.
Andy Carroll,Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam = 85 million.
Would you be saying the same things if it were Rafa Benitez doing the buying?
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355599#msg1355599 date=1309101333]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355527#msg1355527 date=1309096291]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355523#msg1355523 date=1309095695]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355519#msg1355519 date=1309095576]
Well this thread just say so much for this 'In Kenny We Trust' eh !
[/quote]
Wanting us to buy better players and to not spend money on average doesnt mean faith is lost with Kenny Dalglsh.
[/quote]
Actually it says a lot. Henderson, Adam and Downing are all now getting crapped on in their respective threads (or others). So that begs the question that if Kenny & Comolli think they add something to our team/squad, that they are what we need, and they believe they are worth the respective fees we have paid (are about to pay) how come so many people on 6CM think they are ; shite /average/not-worth-the-money ? Give you one guess what it says.
[/quote]
Just the one guess?
I'll give you two.
'Some people aren't so blinkered'.
Kenny Dalglish is our greatest ever player, and is my favourite ever player. The fact that I pretended to be a British citizen so I could ask my MP to support the Early Day Motion supporting Kenny's knighthood should tell you what I think about him.
But I also think he's not inafliible, and that he is capable of making bad transfers, because guess what? He has.
So if I think we're making expensive mistakes in the transfer market I'll say so.
[/quote]
It's not about being blinkered. It's about being realistic. And you are mistaking loyalty for belief - two completely different concepts.
Some people on here seem to feel we can contend in the market with the likes of Barca, Real, AC or United & Chelsea. In general, for the moment, we can't. Funds in some cases aren't the issue, it's the lack of CL competition (whether I agree with that particular 'carrot' or not) and recent PL success. So that means it's more difficult, and in some cases impossible, to attract the players some people are expecting/demanding.
When it comes to buying English players on long contracts then the price rockets, and that's the way it's been for years. And now it's even more likely they are going to see their values increase as UEFA's rules start to have an effect. Yet still people complain, however the players we have bought (Carroll, Adam [yes - I know he's a Scot] & Henderson) all fit the Fenway criteria, as does Suarez, and all maybe fit both Kenny's and Comolli's too. All are young & still improving and hopefully will continue to do so.
Would they have been my choices ? Probably not even one of them (Suarez aside as I've been mentioning him for a while and was excited we bought him), but the others all have skills, PL experience and maybe more importantly should all add substantial improvement to our team/squad. Interestingly many posters have hardly even mentioned other players they would prefer as direct, viable, alternative options. They are more concerned with pouring scorn on either these players' abilities or the fees paid for them .. or both.
You said 'buy better players' ... OK which English players fill the criteria, remain within our budget and which are genuine options for us ? And you said 'average players' - are these new players average ? They obviously are not, they are all international players, meaning probably in the top 10% of British players in the PL. And all are highly rated, not on 6CM, but amongst managers and players in general.
Now I know you will now say, then why didn't we shop in Europe ? However for whatever reason, whether to comply with UEFA future regulations, PL experience, getting back to a British player base or being less willing to take a chance on foreign players who will wish to move on in 2 or 3 years (from our recent experiences) it seems the majority of our shopping is now being done at home .... and in that case I believe that our hands are largely tied in regard to the range of transfer fees possible to secure each player, and indeed which of the better players are actually realistic options.
[/quote]
What loyalty and belief are you talking about,Froggy?
You've been following Liverpool long enough to know that Kenny has had his own bad transfers, so I cant understand why you would regard questioning transfers made now as being somehow disloyal. I feel that it is actually a bit insulting.
As for the contention that we are a mediocre club that must content itself with mediocre players who dont mind not being in the Champions League and shouldnt try to secure better targets, well fair enough. That's certainly a view many on here share.
I hope our negotiating people have more belief and ambition though.
And that's because our very future depends on it, everyone is trumpeting Suarez as an exception to the norm, and in truth, we are only fit for the Downings of football. It's disheartening to think that so many think we couldnt do better, despite us still being a big name. Even if many of us dont believe that anymore, as you've suggested.
As for who I think we should get, I don't know. If that means I dont get to question whether or not we could better with players from elsewhere, then fair enough.
It's not even so much that I think the players we're linked with are bad or even mediocre. I dont think that, most of those names would actually improve us. It's just the idea that these deals are somehow good value and that these are the prices we have to pay in an inflated market.
That doesnt detract from the fact that the market is inflated because clubs like us have no qualms paying for unproven talent or players who've been at the most better than what we've had. As for the idea that we have to pay a premium for English talent and that the values are likely to increase, I'm of the view that not one of Carroll,Adam,Henderson,and Downing will be worth more i re-sale than what we're paying for them.
I dearly hope to be proven wrong, but I think I wont be. I'll be happy if they even keep their value.
As to whether there is a definite change to our transfer policy to get in only British talent irrespective of value and availability of foreign talent, if this is true I hope the players we bring in get the job done. Because if not we're going to be facing serious problems in 3 years.
Andy Carroll,Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam = 85 million.
Would you be saying the same things if it were Rafa Benitez doing the buying?
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1355537#msg1355537 date=1309097060]
I think the point Neil is making is pretty obvious, as for molby, change the fucking record, it's irriating to say the least, and Maxi is not better, he's been a fucking disaster. A purple patch for a few games and suddenly hes a World beater, that's a bit rich coming from the same posters slating Downing on the back of a top 'season' for Villa.
[/quote]
Err...no mark pal... change the record, why should I? I am genuinely vehemently opposed to signing what i consider to be a fairly poor player for huge money, I don't buy the Kenny is infallible line and Downing's the best we can do line as gospel either and i don't like your opinion on the matter either but I'm not telling you not to express it.
By the way, not that it would make an ounce of difference to my own opinion on it but, I'm certainly not the only poster on here who thinks it's a really bad idea to sign him for huge cash so please do stop making it a personal thing.
FWIW I never initially raised the comparison with Maxi but I do prefer we keep him and save the 20M.
Oh and i remember not so long ago that I and another poster on here were two of the few defending Maxi as a useful footballer before his "purple patch" at the end....
I think the point Neil is making is pretty obvious, as for molby, change the fucking record, it's irriating to say the least, and Maxi is not better, he's been a fucking disaster. A purple patch for a few games and suddenly hes a World beater, that's a bit rich coming from the same posters slating Downing on the back of a top 'season' for Villa.
[/quote]
Err...no mark pal... change the record, why should I? I am genuinely vehemently opposed to signing what i consider to be a fairly poor player for huge money, I don't buy the Kenny is infallible line and Downing's the best we can do line as gospel either and i don't like your opinion on the matter either but I'm not telling you not to express it.
By the way, not that it would make an ounce of difference to my own opinion on it but, I'm certainly not the only poster on here who thinks it's a really bad idea to sign him for huge cash so please do stop making it a personal thing.
FWIW I never initially raised the comparison with Maxi but I do prefer we keep him and save the 20M.
Oh and i remember not so long ago that I and another poster on here were two of the few defending Maxi as a useful footballer before his "purple patch" at the end....
There's a few things being seriously overlooked in all of this.
I don't think many people are advocating spending that amount on Downing, the issue is idiots labelling him as shite and mediocre, or worse still, "not as good as Maxi". He's a good player, he's not flashy but he's consistent and does the job of a wide player in providing goals and scoring a few. People seem so wrapped up in their need for this revolutionary wide player we've lacked for so long that they're dismissing Downing as not good enough to improve the team. He WILL improve the team.
We're not in the Champions League, (as Neil has tried to say throughout the last day or so, yet has criminally taken person abuse for, shame on you), so the attraction isn't there. "Aguero has gone to Juve". Yeah, Juve who are in one of the most beautiful cities in Europe with the weather to go with it, with the financial clout to wave too. They might have ended up outside the CL positions last season, but Chelsea were seriously interested too, that should tell you enough about the pull of other countries and it should also tell you that we don't always know the ins and outs of transfers, it's not just a case of "go and sign Mata".
It's July. There's a long way to go yet. And we're not operating at the same level as Barca, or United or anyone in the CL. So quit acting like we are, there's nothing more blinkered than not realising your present level and all that entails. Of course we should go all out for quality but we have to be realistic aswell.
We're out of Europe so we're concentrating on the league, which could be a major factor in our decision to target Premiership based players, we're putting together a base to build on. We need to hit the ground running in the league as the priority now has to be finishing in the top four and by purchasing proven Premiership players (as well as weathered up and coming ones) we're giving ourselves stability to build on, with a view to adding quality to that. It might not be FM material, but it's sound thinking and it's not really a million miles removed from United's blueprint.
Kenny will have us playing as a team, with balance and stability, the most important thing is beating the teams in the Premiership, the rest will follow.
I don't think many people are advocating spending that amount on Downing, the issue is idiots labelling him as shite and mediocre, or worse still, "not as good as Maxi". He's a good player, he's not flashy but he's consistent and does the job of a wide player in providing goals and scoring a few. People seem so wrapped up in their need for this revolutionary wide player we've lacked for so long that they're dismissing Downing as not good enough to improve the team. He WILL improve the team.
We're not in the Champions League, (as Neil has tried to say throughout the last day or so, yet has criminally taken person abuse for, shame on you), so the attraction isn't there. "Aguero has gone to Juve". Yeah, Juve who are in one of the most beautiful cities in Europe with the weather to go with it, with the financial clout to wave too. They might have ended up outside the CL positions last season, but Chelsea were seriously interested too, that should tell you enough about the pull of other countries and it should also tell you that we don't always know the ins and outs of transfers, it's not just a case of "go and sign Mata".
It's July. There's a long way to go yet. And we're not operating at the same level as Barca, or United or anyone in the CL. So quit acting like we are, there's nothing more blinkered than not realising your present level and all that entails. Of course we should go all out for quality but we have to be realistic aswell.
We're out of Europe so we're concentrating on the league, which could be a major factor in our decision to target Premiership based players, we're putting together a base to build on. We need to hit the ground running in the league as the priority now has to be finishing in the top four and by purchasing proven Premiership players (as well as weathered up and coming ones) we're giving ourselves stability to build on, with a view to adding quality to that. It might not be FM material, but it's sound thinking and it's not really a million miles removed from United's blueprint.
Kenny will have us playing as a team, with balance and stability, the most important thing is beating the teams in the Premiership, the rest will follow.
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=44931.msg1355706#msg1355706 date=1309119600]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1355537#msg1355537 date=1309097060]
I think the point Neil is making is pretty obvious, as for molby, change the fucking record, it's irriating to say the least, and Maxi is not better, he's been a fucking disaster. A purple patch for a few games and suddenly hes a World beater, that's a bit rich coming from the same posters slating Downing on the back of a top 'season' for Villa.
[/quote]
Err...no mark pal... change the record, why should I? I am genuinely vehemently opposed to signing what i consider to be a fairly poor player for huge money, I don't buy the Kenny is infallible line and Downing's the best we can do line as gospel either and i don't like your opinion on the matter either but I'm not telling you not to express it.
By the way, not that it would make an ounce of difference to my own opinion on it but, I'm certainly not the only poster on here who thinks it's a really bad idea to sign him for huge cash so please do stop making it a personal thing.
FWIW I never initially raised the comparison with Maxi but I do prefer we keep him and save the 20M.
Oh and i remember not so long ago that I and another poster on here were two of the few defending Maxi as a useful footballer before his "purple patch" at the end....
[/quote]
I'm not saying don't express it, it just got repetitive s'all. I like Downing, I think the fee is massively inflated so I wouldn't be disappointed if we walk away, but the lad is a good player who would improve us and that shouldn't be dismissed because we're allowing ourselves to be stung by Villa.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1355537#msg1355537 date=1309097060]
I think the point Neil is making is pretty obvious, as for molby, change the fucking record, it's irriating to say the least, and Maxi is not better, he's been a fucking disaster. A purple patch for a few games and suddenly hes a World beater, that's a bit rich coming from the same posters slating Downing on the back of a top 'season' for Villa.
[/quote]
Err...no mark pal... change the record, why should I? I am genuinely vehemently opposed to signing what i consider to be a fairly poor player for huge money, I don't buy the Kenny is infallible line and Downing's the best we can do line as gospel either and i don't like your opinion on the matter either but I'm not telling you not to express it.
By the way, not that it would make an ounce of difference to my own opinion on it but, I'm certainly not the only poster on here who thinks it's a really bad idea to sign him for huge cash so please do stop making it a personal thing.
FWIW I never initially raised the comparison with Maxi but I do prefer we keep him and save the 20M.
Oh and i remember not so long ago that I and another poster on here were two of the few defending Maxi as a useful footballer before his "purple patch" at the end....
[/quote]
I'm not saying don't express it, it just got repetitive s'all. I like Downing, I think the fee is massively inflated so I wouldn't be disappointed if we walk away, but the lad is a good player who would improve us and that shouldn't be dismissed because we're allowing ourselves to be stung by Villa.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1355710#msg1355710 date=1309120411]
There's a few things being seriously overlooked in all of this.
I don't think many people are advocating spending that amount on Downing, the issue is idiots labelling him as shite and mediocre, or worse still, "not as good as Maxi". He's a good player, he's not flashy but he's consistent and does the job of a wide player in providing goals and scoring a few. People seem so wrapped up in their need for this revolutionary wide player we've lacked for so long that they're dismissing Downing as not good enough to improve the team. He WILL improve the team.
We're not in the Champions League, (as Neil has tried to say throughout the last day or so, yet has criminally taken person abuse for, shame on you), so the attraction isn't there. "Aguero has gone to Juve". Yeah, Juve who are in one of the most beautiful cities in Europe with the weather to go with it, with the financial clout to wave too. They might have ended up outside the CL positions last season, but Chelsea were seriously interested too, that should tell you enough about the pull of other countries and it should also tell you that we don't always know the ins and outs of transfers, it's not just a case of "go and sign Mata".
It's July. There's a long way to go yet. And we're not operating at the same level as Barca, or United or anyone in the CL. So quit acting like we are, there's nothing more blinkered than not realising your present level and all that entails. Of course we should go all out for quality but we have to be realistic aswell.
We're out of Europe so we're concentrating on the league, which could be a major factor in our decision to target Premiership based players, we're putting together a base to build on. We need to hit the ground running in the league as the priority now has to be finishing in the top four and by purchasing proven Premiership players (as well as weathered up and coming ones) we're giving ourselves stability to build on, with a view to adding quality to that. It might not be FM material, but it's sound thinking and it's not really a million miles removed from United's blueprint.
Kenny will have us playing as a team, with balance and stability, the most important thing is beating the teams in the Premiership, the rest will follow.
[/quote]
All thats fair enough opinion Mark but i just do not agree with a number of the points in it. At best the majority of posters who "want" us to sign Downing want us to sign him with lukewarm justifications that we are not attractive enough and can't do better etc... for twenty million or even 16M i'm absolutely certain we can CL or not shitty northern weather included.
That I suppose is why there is such a lengthy debate on the matter.
It would be a very weird signing considering our reported criteria and i although i have no sources anywhere at the club my gut feeling is that we will not get him, and i think it will be a bullet dodged.
There's a few things being seriously overlooked in all of this.
I don't think many people are advocating spending that amount on Downing, the issue is idiots labelling him as shite and mediocre, or worse still, "not as good as Maxi". He's a good player, he's not flashy but he's consistent and does the job of a wide player in providing goals and scoring a few. People seem so wrapped up in their need for this revolutionary wide player we've lacked for so long that they're dismissing Downing as not good enough to improve the team. He WILL improve the team.
We're not in the Champions League, (as Neil has tried to say throughout the last day or so, yet has criminally taken person abuse for, shame on you), so the attraction isn't there. "Aguero has gone to Juve". Yeah, Juve who are in one of the most beautiful cities in Europe with the weather to go with it, with the financial clout to wave too. They might have ended up outside the CL positions last season, but Chelsea were seriously interested too, that should tell you enough about the pull of other countries and it should also tell you that we don't always know the ins and outs of transfers, it's not just a case of "go and sign Mata".
It's July. There's a long way to go yet. And we're not operating at the same level as Barca, or United or anyone in the CL. So quit acting like we are, there's nothing more blinkered than not realising your present level and all that entails. Of course we should go all out for quality but we have to be realistic aswell.
We're out of Europe so we're concentrating on the league, which could be a major factor in our decision to target Premiership based players, we're putting together a base to build on. We need to hit the ground running in the league as the priority now has to be finishing in the top four and by purchasing proven Premiership players (as well as weathered up and coming ones) we're giving ourselves stability to build on, with a view to adding quality to that. It might not be FM material, but it's sound thinking and it's not really a million miles removed from United's blueprint.
Kenny will have us playing as a team, with balance and stability, the most important thing is beating the teams in the Premiership, the rest will follow.
[/quote]
All thats fair enough opinion Mark but i just do not agree with a number of the points in it. At best the majority of posters who "want" us to sign Downing want us to sign him with lukewarm justifications that we are not attractive enough and can't do better etc... for twenty million or even 16M i'm absolutely certain we can CL or not shitty northern weather included.
That I suppose is why there is such a lengthy debate on the matter.
It would be a very weird signing considering our reported criteria and i although i have no sources anywhere at the club my gut feeling is that we will not get him, and i think it will be a bullet dodged.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1355710#msg1355710 date=1309120411]
There's a few things being seriously overlooked in all of this.
I don't think many people are advocating spending that amount on Downing, the issue is idiots labelling him as shite and mediocre, or worse still, "not as good as Maxi". He's a good player, he's not flashy but he's consistent and does the job of a wide player in providing goals and scoring a few. People seem so wrapped up in their need for this revolutionary wide player we've lacked for so long that they're dismissing Downing as not good enough to improve the team. He WILL improve the team.
We're not in the Champions League, (as Neil has tried to say throughout the last day or so, yet has criminally taken person abuse for, shame on you), so the attraction isn't there. "Aguero has gone to Juve". Yeah, Juve who are in one of the most beautiful cities in Europe with the weather to go with it, with the financial clout to wave too. They might have ended up outside the CL positions last season, but Chelsea were seriously interested too, that should tell you enough about the pull of other countries and it should also tell you that we don't always know the ins and outs of transfers, it's not just a case of "go and sign Mata".
It's July. There's a long way to go yet. And we're not operating at the same level as Barca, or United or anyone in the CL. So quit acting like we are, there's nothing more blinkered than not realising your present level and all that entails. Of course we should go all out for quality but we have to be realistic aswell.
We're out of Europe so we're concentrating on the league, which could be a major factor in our decision to target Premiership based players, we're putting together a base to build on. We need to hit the ground running in the league as the priority now has to be finishing in the top four and by purchasing proven Premiership players (as well as weathered up and coming ones) we're giving ourselves stability to build on, with a view to adding quality to that. It might not be FM material, but it's sound thinking and it's not really a million miles removed from United's blueprint.
Kenny will have us playing as a team, with balance and stability, the most important thing is beating the teams in the Premiership, the rest will follow.
[/quote]
NOthing is being overlooked, Mark.
Those players will improve us, but this defeatist mentality that we have to content oursleves with inferior players is going to destroy us, particularly as we are paying huge amounts for them. The litany of excuses being thrown about as to why a club like Juventus can attract quality players and we can't is something we must stay away from. The longer we believe ourselves mediocre the longer we will stay mediocre.
Yes, the window still has a long way to go. But let's not pretend that our transfer record thus far is somehow phenomenal, because we look to be spending 85 million on 4 players who are either better than what we've got, or who are at BEST unproven talents.
What's going to happen the next time a club we regard as mediocre manage to snag a quality player?
Cluck our heads in disbelief at the folly of the player, talk about the weather?
No one is denying the difficulties faced in attracting quality to Liverpool, but let's not be acepting of that difficulty and content ourselves with whatever we can get. That is just as blinkered as telling ourselves we need to get players whom other top clubs dont want.
Wanting to get in he best players possible also isnt FM thinking, and as Ross pointed out earlier, the 'Premiership proven' idea can be just as risky as getting in any other player.
There's a few things being seriously overlooked in all of this.
I don't think many people are advocating spending that amount on Downing, the issue is idiots labelling him as shite and mediocre, or worse still, "not as good as Maxi". He's a good player, he's not flashy but he's consistent and does the job of a wide player in providing goals and scoring a few. People seem so wrapped up in their need for this revolutionary wide player we've lacked for so long that they're dismissing Downing as not good enough to improve the team. He WILL improve the team.
We're not in the Champions League, (as Neil has tried to say throughout the last day or so, yet has criminally taken person abuse for, shame on you), so the attraction isn't there. "Aguero has gone to Juve". Yeah, Juve who are in one of the most beautiful cities in Europe with the weather to go with it, with the financial clout to wave too. They might have ended up outside the CL positions last season, but Chelsea were seriously interested too, that should tell you enough about the pull of other countries and it should also tell you that we don't always know the ins and outs of transfers, it's not just a case of "go and sign Mata".
It's July. There's a long way to go yet. And we're not operating at the same level as Barca, or United or anyone in the CL. So quit acting like we are, there's nothing more blinkered than not realising your present level and all that entails. Of course we should go all out for quality but we have to be realistic aswell.
We're out of Europe so we're concentrating on the league, which could be a major factor in our decision to target Premiership based players, we're putting together a base to build on. We need to hit the ground running in the league as the priority now has to be finishing in the top four and by purchasing proven Premiership players (as well as weathered up and coming ones) we're giving ourselves stability to build on, with a view to adding quality to that. It might not be FM material, but it's sound thinking and it's not really a million miles removed from United's blueprint.
Kenny will have us playing as a team, with balance and stability, the most important thing is beating the teams in the Premiership, the rest will follow.
[/quote]
NOthing is being overlooked, Mark.
Those players will improve us, but this defeatist mentality that we have to content oursleves with inferior players is going to destroy us, particularly as we are paying huge amounts for them. The litany of excuses being thrown about as to why a club like Juventus can attract quality players and we can't is something we must stay away from. The longer we believe ourselves mediocre the longer we will stay mediocre.
Yes, the window still has a long way to go. But let's not pretend that our transfer record thus far is somehow phenomenal, because we look to be spending 85 million on 4 players who are either better than what we've got, or who are at BEST unproven talents.
What's going to happen the next time a club we regard as mediocre manage to snag a quality player?
Cluck our heads in disbelief at the folly of the player, talk about the weather?
No one is denying the difficulties faced in attracting quality to Liverpool, but let's not be acepting of that difficulty and content ourselves with whatever we can get. That is just as blinkered as telling ourselves we need to get players whom other top clubs dont want.
Wanting to get in he best players possible also isnt FM thinking, and as Ross pointed out earlier, the 'Premiership proven' idea can be just as risky as getting in any other player.
I'm not resigned to anything Avvy or content with mediocre players, I think he's a good player and better than most are giving him credit for, but as I've said, the fee is inflated, that much I'll agree with but that doesn't make the player shite, mediocre or not good enough for Liverpool, they're completely separate issues.
So far we've brought in Suarez, Carroll, Henderson and we're looking at Adam and Downing, I'm not distraught by any means, the market has gone through the roof and we have to be careful with the role we're playing in that, especially if further down the line we're not in such a luxurious position (not arguments there from me), but I can see the reasoning and logic behind our current strategy in terms of the type of personnel we're targeting, the money issue IS an issue, but a different one. Like I said, I can see we're trying to hit the ground running in the league and I'll also consider there's a long way to go in this transfer window yet, so I certainly won't be drawing any conclusions this early. Who'd have thought the January window would have ended the way it did?
So far we've brought in Suarez, Carroll, Henderson and we're looking at Adam and Downing, I'm not distraught by any means, the market has gone through the roof and we have to be careful with the role we're playing in that, especially if further down the line we're not in such a luxurious position (not arguments there from me), but I can see the reasoning and logic behind our current strategy in terms of the type of personnel we're targeting, the money issue IS an issue, but a different one. Like I said, I can see we're trying to hit the ground running in the league and I'll also consider there's a long way to go in this transfer window yet, so I certainly won't be drawing any conclusions this early. Who'd have thought the January window would have ended the way it did?
With all this going on, can I take a moment to have a go at Mark mc's insider info person!
Who said 'we will be shopping at harrods'.. That one line was in my head most days and helped me
See the season out.
Problem is We are still shopping at netto but paying harrods prices.
Who said 'we will be shopping at harrods'.. That one line was in my head most days and helped me
See the season out.
Problem is We are still shopping at netto but paying harrods prices.
S
Squiggles
Guest
Let's be honest here, anyone can see that we can do better than Stuart Downing for £19M.
I would have no problem with us signing him if the transfer fee was realistic and enabled us to spend heavily on other areas, or invest in another winger as well, but sadly this doesn't seem to be the case. The club are making decisions that not one single fan would advocate, and therefore that should rightly come under some scrutiny on football forums.
I would have no problem with us signing him if the transfer fee was realistic and enabled us to spend heavily on other areas, or invest in another winger as well, but sadly this doesn't seem to be the case. The club are making decisions that not one single fan would advocate, and therefore that should rightly come under some scrutiny on football forums.
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=44931.msg1355693#msg1355693 date=1309115926]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355689#msg1355689 date=1309113763]
It's not about being blinkered. It's about being realistic. And you are mistaking loyalty for belief - two completely different concepts.
Some people on here seem to feel we can contend in the market with the likes of Barca, Real, AC or United & Chelsea. In general, for the moment, we can't. Funds in some cases aren't the issue, it's the lack of CL competition (whether I agree with that particular 'carrot' or not) and recent PL success. So that means it's more difficult, and in some cases impossible, to attract the players some people are expecting/demanding.
When it comes to buying English players on long contracts then the price rockets, and that's the way it's been for years. And now it's even more likely they are going to see their values increase as UEFA's rules start to have an effect. Yet still people complain, however the players we have bought (Carroll, Adam [yes - I know he's a Scot] & Henderson) all fit the Fenway criteria, as does Suarez, and all maybe fit both Kenny's and Comolli's too. All are young & still improving and hopefully will continue to do so.
Would they have been my choices ? Probably not even one of them (Suarez aside as I've been mentioning him for a while and was excited we bought him), but the others all have skills, PL experience and maybe more importantly should all add substantial improvement to our team/squad. Interestingly many posters have hardly even mentioned other players they would prefer as direct, viable, alternative options. They are more concerned with pouring scorn on either these players' abilities or the fees paid for them .. or both.
You said 'buy better players' ... OK which English players fill the criteria, remain within our budget and which are genuine options for us ? And you said 'average players' - are these new players average ? They obviously are not, they are all international players, meaning probably in the top 10% of British players in the PL. And all are highly rated, not on 6CM, but amongst managers and players in general.
Now I know you will now say, then why didn't we shop in Europe ? However for whatever reason, whether to comply with UEFA future regulations, PL experience, getting back to a British player base or being less willing to take a chance on foreign players who will wish to move on in 2 or 3 years (from our recent experiences) it seems the majority of our shopping is now being done at home .... and in that case I believe that our hands are largely tied in regard to the range of transfer fees possible to secure each player, and indeed which of the better players are actually realistic options.
[/quote]
What loyalty and belief are you talking about,Froggy?
You've been following Liverpool long enough to know that Kenny has had his own bad transfers, so I cant understand why you would regard questioning transfers made now as being somehow disloyal. I feel that it is actually a bit insulting.
As for the contention that we are a mediocre club that must content itself with mediocre players who dont mind not being in the Champions League and shouldnt try to secure better targets, well fair enough. That's certainly a view many on here share.
I hope our negotiating people have more belief and ambition though.
And that's because our very future depends on it, everyone is trumpeting Suarez as an exception to the norm, and in truth, we are only fit for the Downings of football. It's disheartening to think that so many think we couldnt do better, despite us still being a big name. Even if many of us dont believe that anymore, as you've suggested.
As for who I think we should get, I don't know. If that means I dont get to question whether or not we could better with players from elsewhere, then fair enough.
It's not even so much that I think the players we're linked with are bad or even mediocre. I dont think that, most of those names would actually improve us. It's just the idea that these deals are somehow good value and that these are the prices we have to pay in an inflated market.
That doesnt detract from the fact that the market is inflated because clubs like us have no qualms paying for unproven talent or players who've been at the most better than what we've had. As for the idea that we have to pay a premium for English talent and that the values are likely to increase, I'm of the view that not one of Carroll,Adam,Henderson,and Downing will be worth more i re-sale than what we're paying for them.
I dearly hope to be proven wrong, but I think I wont be. I'll be happy if they even keep their value.
As to whether there is a definite change to our transfer policy to get in only British talent irrespective of value and availability of foreign talent, if this is true I hope the players we bring in get the job done. Because if not we're going to be facing serious problems in 3 years.
Andy Carroll,Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam = 85 million.
Would you be saying the same things if it were Rafa Benitez doing the buying?
[/quote]
Loyalty - to the club, such as the efforts you have made to support KK.
Belief - that the transfers being engineered by KK / Comolli & Fenway are the right moves at the right time for the club. That doesn't mean that anyone's belief has to be all encompassing or blind ! Though it seems some people don't have any belief in these moves - even in part. All I'm seeing is criticism, except from a few more moderate posters.
It seems (throughout numerous threads - poor Spidey seems to take a hammering in this regard !) many people interpret comments here almost as polar swings ! I didn't say mediocre - but our team are no longer at the top level, the club is a different matter and pure statistics dictate it is - there is a huge difference between being mediocre and being at a level just below the current top teams in Europe.
I think it's ca. 75M not 85M and whether it's KK, Rafa or Hodgson, the proof is in the eating.
Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing & Charlie Adam won't improve our squad ? Sorry but I have to strongly disagree on that one. As for resale value - it's not often players at top clubs are sold for more than they paid for them - Torres an obvious exception - it's whether the eventually represent value for money over the course of their employ for LFC that matters.
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=44931.msg1355689#msg1355689 date=1309113763]
It's not about being blinkered. It's about being realistic. And you are mistaking loyalty for belief - two completely different concepts.
Some people on here seem to feel we can contend in the market with the likes of Barca, Real, AC or United & Chelsea. In general, for the moment, we can't. Funds in some cases aren't the issue, it's the lack of CL competition (whether I agree with that particular 'carrot' or not) and recent PL success. So that means it's more difficult, and in some cases impossible, to attract the players some people are expecting/demanding.
When it comes to buying English players on long contracts then the price rockets, and that's the way it's been for years. And now it's even more likely they are going to see their values increase as UEFA's rules start to have an effect. Yet still people complain, however the players we have bought (Carroll, Adam [yes - I know he's a Scot] & Henderson) all fit the Fenway criteria, as does Suarez, and all maybe fit both Kenny's and Comolli's too. All are young & still improving and hopefully will continue to do so.
Would they have been my choices ? Probably not even one of them (Suarez aside as I've been mentioning him for a while and was excited we bought him), but the others all have skills, PL experience and maybe more importantly should all add substantial improvement to our team/squad. Interestingly many posters have hardly even mentioned other players they would prefer as direct, viable, alternative options. They are more concerned with pouring scorn on either these players' abilities or the fees paid for them .. or both.
You said 'buy better players' ... OK which English players fill the criteria, remain within our budget and which are genuine options for us ? And you said 'average players' - are these new players average ? They obviously are not, they are all international players, meaning probably in the top 10% of British players in the PL. And all are highly rated, not on 6CM, but amongst managers and players in general.
Now I know you will now say, then why didn't we shop in Europe ? However for whatever reason, whether to comply with UEFA future regulations, PL experience, getting back to a British player base or being less willing to take a chance on foreign players who will wish to move on in 2 or 3 years (from our recent experiences) it seems the majority of our shopping is now being done at home .... and in that case I believe that our hands are largely tied in regard to the range of transfer fees possible to secure each player, and indeed which of the better players are actually realistic options.
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What loyalty and belief are you talking about,Froggy?
You've been following Liverpool long enough to know that Kenny has had his own bad transfers, so I cant understand why you would regard questioning transfers made now as being somehow disloyal. I feel that it is actually a bit insulting.
As for the contention that we are a mediocre club that must content itself with mediocre players who dont mind not being in the Champions League and shouldnt try to secure better targets, well fair enough. That's certainly a view many on here share.
I hope our negotiating people have more belief and ambition though.
And that's because our very future depends on it, everyone is trumpeting Suarez as an exception to the norm, and in truth, we are only fit for the Downings of football. It's disheartening to think that so many think we couldnt do better, despite us still being a big name. Even if many of us dont believe that anymore, as you've suggested.
As for who I think we should get, I don't know. If that means I dont get to question whether or not we could better with players from elsewhere, then fair enough.
It's not even so much that I think the players we're linked with are bad or even mediocre. I dont think that, most of those names would actually improve us. It's just the idea that these deals are somehow good value and that these are the prices we have to pay in an inflated market.
That doesnt detract from the fact that the market is inflated because clubs like us have no qualms paying for unproven talent or players who've been at the most better than what we've had. As for the idea that we have to pay a premium for English talent and that the values are likely to increase, I'm of the view that not one of Carroll,Adam,Henderson,and Downing will be worth more i re-sale than what we're paying for them.
I dearly hope to be proven wrong, but I think I wont be. I'll be happy if they even keep their value.
As to whether there is a definite change to our transfer policy to get in only British talent irrespective of value and availability of foreign talent, if this is true I hope the players we bring in get the job done. Because if not we're going to be facing serious problems in 3 years.
Andy Carroll,Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam = 85 million.
Would you be saying the same things if it were Rafa Benitez doing the buying?
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Loyalty - to the club, such as the efforts you have made to support KK.
Belief - that the transfers being engineered by KK / Comolli & Fenway are the right moves at the right time for the club. That doesn't mean that anyone's belief has to be all encompassing or blind ! Though it seems some people don't have any belief in these moves - even in part. All I'm seeing is criticism, except from a few more moderate posters.
It seems (throughout numerous threads - poor Spidey seems to take a hammering in this regard !) many people interpret comments here almost as polar swings ! I didn't say mediocre - but our team are no longer at the top level, the club is a different matter and pure statistics dictate it is - there is a huge difference between being mediocre and being at a level just below the current top teams in Europe.
I think it's ca. 75M not 85M and whether it's KK, Rafa or Hodgson, the proof is in the eating.
Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing & Charlie Adam won't improve our squad ? Sorry but I have to strongly disagree on that one. As for resale value - it's not often players at top clubs are sold for more than they paid for them - Torres an obvious exception - it's whether the eventually represent value for money over the course of their employ for LFC that matters.
I don't mind signing Downing as long as we sign Fernando Torres as back up.
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