Downing

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355396#msg1355396 date=1309082087]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1355395#msg1355395 date=1309081975]
Whoa there Ross.

Konchesky, Cole, Zenden, Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant, Benayoun, Keane, Johnson, Heskey, Barmby, Hamann, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell.

I'd argue those in bold were worth the cash, definitely.

You're serious about Hamann & Henchoz?! Fucking hell.
[/quote]

I'm listing them all out for the sake of completeness. You can see Premiership proven means fuck all in the grand scheme of things- it usually indicated someone is just past their best as was the case with a number of those players.
[/quote]

Other than that, Konch & Zenden were Roy's fuck ups & every knew it.

Bellamy & Pennant were attutude not skill problems. Keane is arguably the same/Rafa's attitude. Barmby we had to overpay for obv reasons, Kewell has injury problems after lighting up the team for 6 months & was never seen again.

Rule out injury problems by buying players with better injury records & make sure they're not bell-ends & the tactic makes more sense.

Oh, & Cole was free.

 

[spider-Neil]

carroll - a signing of intent (imho) I think the nature of chelsea's big and capture of torres meant we ha to buy SOMEONE.

henderson
adam
downing
I think kenny is paying a premium for players who will;
a) take less time to settle
b) be more up for a fight when the shit hits the fan
c) be less likely to disappear during winter
d) will work hard for the team

 

[Rosco]

Konchesky - 4.5m fee, nearly 3m a year in wages = 16.5m wasted on a Premiership proven full back.

Cole - 4.5m a year for five years. 22.5m wasted on a Premiership proven attacking midfielder.

Zenden - free but shite.

Crouch - not a financial fuck up, but a player who simply was never good enough.

Bellamy - not a bad financial deal thanks to his buy out clause - not good enough despite proving he could score 18 goals in the Premiership.

Pennant - Premiership proven right winger who was a bit of a joke with us.

Benayoun - nothing wrong with him.

Keane - Premiership proven = past it. £19.3m and a league title down the drain because we signed him. Now has a Mr. Men character named after him - Mr. Sitter.

Johnson - mixed bag, massively overpriced at £17.5m - not as reliable as Arbeloa who cost 1/8 of his fee.

Heskey - one good season and a few bad ones.

Barmby - shite.

Hamann - it was a fair bit of money at the time but it worked out very well.

Henchoz - good signing.

Finnan - good signing.

Kewell - waste of money.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355403#msg1355403 date=1309082574]
carroll - a signing of intent (imho) I think the nature of chelsea's big and capture of Torres meant we ha to buy SOMEONE.

henderson
adam
downing
I think kenny is paying a premium for players who will;
a) take less time to settle
b) be more up for a fight when the shit hits the fan
c) be less likely to disappear during winter
d) will work hard for the team
[/quote]

Totally agree about the probable reasoning behind the signing of Carroll. One can question whether that reasoning was justified, but in fairness none of us could have fully anticipated how quickly and spectacularly Suarez would make an impact.

 

[Rosco]

So basically to talk of "Premiership proven" as though it's a valuable commodity or something worth overpaying for is a mugs game.

 

[keniget]

Johnson - mixed bag, massively overpriced at £17.5m - not as reliable as Arbeloa who cost 1/8 of his fee.

In fairness with that one, you could say it was a calculated risk given the financial situation at Portsmouth. And there are very few Arbeloas knocking about.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355407#msg1355407 date=1309082845]
So basically to talk of "Premiership proven" as though it's a valuable commodity or something worth overpaying for is a mugs game.
[/quote]

Its importance can certainly be exaggerated but I don't think it's totally valueless either. Its utilisation might have prevented the Aquilani fiasco for a start.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44931.msg1355409#msg1355409 date=1309083036]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355407#msg1355407 date=1309082845]
So basically to talk of "Premiership proven" as though it's a valuable commodity or something worth overpaying for is a mugs game.
[/quote]

Its importance can certainly be exaggerated but I don't think it's totally valueless either. Its utilisation might have prevented the Aquilani fiasco for a start.
[/quote]

That was the same summer we bought the Premiership proven Robbie Keane.

I don't think Rafa was playing with the full deck that summer JJ.

 

[spider-Neil]

ros, no one has a crystal ball. how do you think we should proceed with our transfers if we're;
a) not going to pay a premium for 'proven premiere talent' like downing, henderson
b) not going to take a chance on cheap foreign exports like riera.
for every arbeloa there is a josemi

I guess that leaves paying a premium for foreign players, but that isn't a guarateed measure for success either.
all well and good saying 'we need good players and less shit players and we need to pay less for these players' but in practice it's very difficult to make these transfers especially when we can't offer these players CL football, and aren't located in the capital.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355415#msg1355415 date=1309083316]
ros, no one has a crystal ball. how do you think we should proceed with our transfers if we're;
a) not going to pay a premium for 'proven premiere talent' like downing, henderson
b) not going to take a chance on cheap foreign exports like riera.
for every arbeloa there is a josemi

I guess that leaves paying a premium for foreign players, but that isn't a guarateed measure for success either.
all well and good saying 'we need good players and less shit players and we need to pay less for these players' but in practice it's very difficult to make these transfers especially when we can't offer these players CL football, and aren't located in the capital.
[/quote]

You pay a premium (even a massive one like for Downing) when it's the difference between a league title and not winning a league title.

You exercise patience and restraint otherwise, making smart decisions on players that won't hinder you for years if it goes wrong (Aquilani, Cole, Jovanovic Konchecky etc)

 

[KopPoNok]

When we bought keane, there were other players who are better than keane, for the price lesser than keane.

Unfortunately, downing is the best option we have at this moment (premiership proven). Other player is either not good enough, too expensive or prefer to join a club in Champions League.

 

[mark1975]

Rosco - that wasnt the summer we bought Keane, we bought johnson and Aquilani together, we bought Keane alongside Riera and Dossena. The sentiment is right though, we spunked £80m on shite.

 

[spider-Neil]

real
barca
manu
chelsea
man city
arsenal
juve
inter
AC

a list of the top teams in europe currently
most of those teams have;
huge sums behind them (in some cases a blank cheque) for the tranfer fee/wages
a located in the captial
are in the CL
play in a hot climate

and we are going to sweep in and secure the likes of hazard, sanchez, aguero etc right from under their nose (even though we did secure suarez).
imho we need to claw our way into a CL position and then we will be in a position to get a better calibre of player.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355419#msg1355419 date=1309083532]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355415#msg1355415 date=1309083316]
ros, no one has a crystal ball. how do you think we should proceed with our transfers if we're;
a) not going to pay a premium for 'proven premiere talent' like downing, henderson
b) not going to take a chance on cheap foreign exports like riera.
for every arbeloa there is a josemi

I guess that leaves paying a premium for foreign players, but that isn't a guarateed measure for success either.
all well and good saying 'we need good players and less shit players and we need to pay less for these players' but in practice it's very difficult to make these transfers especially when we can't offer these players CL football, and aren't located in the capital.
[/quote]

You pay a premium (even a massive one like for Downing) when it's the difference between a league title and not winning a league title.

You exercise patience and restraint otherwise, making smart decisions on players that won't hinder you for years if it goes wrong (Aquilani, Cole, Jovanovic Konchecky etc)
[/quote]

post your alternatives then, ros. I'm curious.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355425#msg1355425 date=1309083889]
real
barca
manu
chelsea
man city
arsenal
juve
inter
AC

a list of the top teams in europe currently
most of those teams have;
huge sums behind them (in some cases a blank cheque) for the tranfer fee/wages
a located in the captial
are in the CL
play in a hot climate

and we are going to sweep in and secure the likes of hazard, sanchez, aguero etc right from under their nose (even though we did secure suarez).
imho we need to claw our way into a CL position and then we will be in a position to get a better calibre of player.
[/quote]

Most of them don't have many of those conditions attached to them.

And Juve finished 7th in Italy last year, hardly one of the best teams in Europe.

We can do better than Downing, spunking 20m on him in order to get back in the CL is a waste of time and money.

I accept we can't sign every player out there, that has always been the case. Liverpool is not going to be top of the list for many European players. That doesn't mean we have to sign Downing for 20m. (I'd be happy with signing him for 12m or less btw)

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1355428#msg1355428 date=1309084114]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44931.msg1355425#msg1355425 date=1309083889]
real
barca
manu
chelsea
man city
arsenal
juve
inter
AC

a list of the top teams in europe currently
most of those teams have;
huge sums behind them (in some cases a blank cheque) for the tranfer fee/wages
a located in the captial
are in the CL
play in a hot climate

and we are going to sweep in and secure the likes of hazard, sanchez, aguero etc right from under their nose (even though we did secure suarez).
imho we need to claw our way into a CL position and then we will be in a position to get a better calibre of player.
[/quote]

Most of them don't have many of those conditions attached to them.

And Juve finished 7th in Italy last year, hardly one of the best teams in Europe.

We can do better than Downing, spunking 20m on him in order to get back in the CL is a waste of time and money.

I accept we can't sign every player out there, that has always been the case. Liverpool is not going to be top of the list for many European players. That doesn't mean we have to sign Downing for 20m. (I'd be happy with signing him for 12m or less btw)

[/quote]

we could of course spend that 20m (if it is 20m) on mata who has indicated he wants to come to liverpool but that is also a gamble.

 

[spider-Neil]

would be interesting to know if;
henderson
adam
downing

are kenny's first choice. if they ARE his first choice and integral to his plans then you just have to trust the manager. you either trust him and back him or remove him. if they are not his first choice maybe we can't get his first choice.

 

[Home and A Gay]

If our spending spree stops here will anyone be even remotely happy?

 

[OLD_Lewy]

if we get mata aswell id be happy, but we probably do need either a LB or CB

 

[Home and A Gay]

So for instance Enrique and Cahill are next.
Thats almost 80 million on Henderson,Adam,Downing,Enrique and Cahill.
80 million on players who have less than 10 international caps between the lot of em.

 

[Halmeister]

I'm not too sure why you reacted so angrily to my comments FFF? And somebody else commented on it, but I can't be arsed going back two pages, to be honest.

I didn't say flat out that Downing's shit and we shouldn't sign him. But every right minded person who follows football should acknowledge that near £20m is ludicrously overpriced for a player of his ability. You can point to the current market, but we're doing ourselves no favours in inflating the market by making this kind of signing, or the Henderson signing, or the Carroll signing etc etc.

When I say a snip at his value I had players like N'Zogbia in mind, who would probably be around £10m and is arguably better than Downing (in my opinion he is, but my opinion doesn't matter). Then there's Mata. He already looks markedly more talented than Downing at about 4 years younger, and wouldn't cost too much more than the £20m quoted for Downing.

In the intervening posts between this and my last, Keni and Rosco have echoed some of my sentiments and put them more eloquently than I could have. The argument is starting to get polarised. He's a decent enough player, I'd be okay with him being here, but I'd be uneasy with the price and the distinct possibility that we'd be looking for somebody better in 12 months time. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Halmeister]

Also how many England caps does Downing have? Genuine question.

I'm not one for judging a players ability on international recognition normally, but the left wing position has been a problem area for England for the whole of my life, I think, and ol' Stewpot doesn't appear to have ever gotten a look in. Not a good sign.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=44931.msg1355446#msg1355446 date=1309087140]
Also how many England caps does Downing have? Genuine question.

I'm not one for judging a players ability on international recognition normally, but the left wing position has been a problem area for England for the whole of my life, I think, and ol' Stewpot doesn't appear to have ever gotten a look in. Not a good sign.
[/quote]

Young is only just starting to get a look in now, half the time it depends on who you play for.

 

[Halmeister]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1355448#msg1355448 date=1309087325]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=44931.msg1355446#msg1355446 date=1309087140]
Also how many England caps does Downing have? Genuine question.

I'm not one for judging a players ability on international recognition normally, but the left wing position has been a problem area for England for the whole of my life, I think, and ol' Stewpot doesn't appear to have ever gotten a look in. Not a good sign.
[/quote]

Young is only just starting to get a look in now, half the time it depends on who you play for.
[/quote]

Exactly the reason I don't pay too much attention to it. But the national team has been crying out for a natural left sided attacker for nigh on 20 years.

 

[King Binny]

GERARD Houllier has warned Aston Villa successor Alex McLeish of the importance of warding off Liverpool to hold onto player-of-the-season Stewart Downing.

With Ashley Young completing his £16 million-plus move to Manchester United on Thursday, Villa now face a battle to keep Downing out of Kenny Dalglish’s clutches.

Liverpool are reportedly preparing to test the claret and blues’ resolve with a £19 million offer for the 26-year-old former Middlesbrough favourite.

But Downing still has two years left on his contract and Houllier believes it is vital Villa hang onto him following last season’s resurgence.

“From a club’s point of view and a manager’s point of view obviously you want to keep that sort of player – he’s so rare,” said Houllier.

“He can use both feet and has got much skill. He was voted player of the year by his team-mates and the fans, that tells you everything.

“I personally think he improved a lot under our regime. He’s a footballer, he’s got flair and he’s hardworking.

“He can play on the side and in the middle. He’s very versatile, but also does his job. When sometimes it’s a bit stormy and you have to have someone who helps defending then he can do that job as well. I’m not surprised that so many clubs are after him.” Downing gave positive vibes about his prospects of signing a bumper new two-year extension at the start of the summer but has since had a change of heart.

The England winger admitted on international duty earlier this month that he was unsure whether he would be a Villa player by the time next season kicks off. McLeish has pledged to sit down with the left-footed wideman when he returns to pre-season training in the hope of persuading him his future lies at Villa.

McLeish is unlikely to receive major funds in the transfer market and could be tempted to reinvest any Downing fee to bring in three or four new players.

 

[Oncy]

You cant sugarcoat 20m for Stewart Downing and 16m for Jordan Henderson.
You just cant do it. Its 30 odd million on two players who dont really do anything about improving us. Maxi is better than Downing and ALL our CM's are better than Henderson.

I love signings as much as the next man, but these two and Adam are in no way good value.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

maxis better than downing when he's on form, but how oftens that been? 2 games at the end of the season? downings much more consistent

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Lewy link=topic=44931.msg1355460#msg1355460 date=1309089759]
maxis better than downing when he's on form, but how oftens that been? 2 games at the end of the season? downings much more consistent
[/quote]

He was very much on fire towards the end of last season. He suited the system and he offered a lot. So why should that stop?

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Lewy link=topic=44931.msg1355460#msg1355460 date=1309089759]
maxis better than downing when he's on form, but how oftens that been? 2 games at the end of the season? downings much more consistent
[/quote]When utilised correctly as he was he was unplayable. Stewart Downing will never EVER score 8 goals in 4 games. He will never score a hattrick.
Maxi is a much better player.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=44931.msg1355465#msg1355465 date=1309090002]
[quote author=Lewy link=topic=44931.msg1355460#msg1355460 date=1309089759]
maxis better than downing when he's on form, but how oftens that been? 2 games at the end of the season? downings much more consistent
[/quote]When utilised correctly as he was he was unplayable. Stewart Downing will never EVER score 8 goals in 4 games. He will never score a hattrick.
Maxi is a much better player.
[/quote]

I never forget a man's crimes. Maxi scoring those hattricks was meaningless as the season was already over. A terrible depressing utter mess of a season. Maxi is partly responsible for that and I want him to pay for it. So far Downing has committed no crimes although that is likely to change. People should pay and suffer, you can't let Maxi just waltz around melwood picking up a paycheck as if last season never happened.