This
Chinese "Devil Virus" - anyone worried?
- Thread starter manwithnoname
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
Yep, that's my understanding too.
Rational use of face masks in the COVID-19 pandemic
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7118603/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7118603/
True. The problem which the various interviewees I've heard have referred to is that they may increase the wearer's own risk for a variety of reasons (for instance a number of them simply don't agree that wearing a mask decreases the risk of touching your face) and that the balance of advantage is not scientifically clear.
It's a minor (and debatable) increase in the wearer's own risk, in exchange for a major (and very likely) decrease in the risk of the wearer infecting others.
The problem is that exhaling with force almost always results in a sharp intake of breath immediately after. It's a physiological response which means ppl can fuck you up by exhaling in your direction once you are done. I use the alternate method which is to hold my breath every time I pass someone without a mask, chanting 'Kabbadi' is optional but it makes it adds to the drama.
A coup will never happen in today's society. We're beyond saving.
Surely holding the droplets in place is better than them going directly into your mouth or nose? Cotton masks are to be washed regularly.
If the air was totally saturated in droplets all the time, as in a hospital ward, then you are right.
If the air is generally free from droplets, aside from a few isolated locations where people have coughed, then not so much. Imagine it like a local cloud of poison you are unlucky enough to walk through. If you are not inhaling at that moment then your exposure is zero. If you are inhaling then you will only take in about 500ml of the air. Not the end of the world. But if you walk through it with a mask that absorbs and holds onto the poison, then you capture a lot more of it which you subsequently breath in for the rest of your final day.
That's not what the doctors and scientists I've heard interviewed here have been saying. Their whole point has been that the scientific evidence for that view is weak, that in fact the balance of risk may well be the other way around and that this affects the risk/benefit balance for society as a whole..
It would be interesting to note the names of those doctors and scientists and see what they're saying in a week or two.
There's a helluva lot of flip-flopping going on about wearing masks.
I don't have an opinion either way. Personally, I haven't worn one, but I will from Friday when it becomes mandatory here.
I'm struggling to understand your unshakeable faith in British expertise given our floundering response to the crisis. There are medics in other parts of the world, too. Many of whom strongly advocate the use of face masks and advise countries with significantly lower transmission and death rates than the UK. We've been reactionary since the crisis started, so it stands to reason we'd be behind the curve on this as well. I suspect face masks will become part of official advice eventually, although the government will wait until the NHS PPE scandal has died down to avoid further ridicule.
It's true about the flip-flopping internationally and that's actually one reason why I've found the advice from UK medics and researchers persuasive so far, because they haven't joined in with it. Those I've heard (and there have been plenty) have been consistent, including numerous voices from outside the government ranks.
See above, Del. Medics in some of those other countries were always likely to advocate face masks when doing so has become the norm already for other reasons. Where I do think we've clearly been remiss is in not testing as widely as some of those countries and my bet is that that, far more than face masks, has been the main reason for differences in infection rates.
I strongly suspect the UK will change stance on this like the rest, just later.
Well two issues with that !
a) They don't have to cough - exhaling could be enough, nobody knows. What we do know is that there are hundreds of thousands of individual virus 'cells' in any cough (see the statement from a respected virologist quoted below).
The problem being though that we still aren't sure how much (viral load) is enough to cause an infection, so 500ml of air containing X amount of the virus could be enough. Neither you, nor I nor the medical profession can specify that with any certainty yet.
If you are stood still (on transport for example, or in an office or shop) your exposure isn't zero because the virus can land in the vicinity of your mouth/nose (I advise rechecking the research done by a medical research group from the NL/B that I posted here some time ago).
b) If the mask is keeping out the virus then you are not breathing it in at any time are you ! The issue with masks is all in the handling, you can't save the ignorant from themselves.
Dr Michael Skinner, Reader in Virology, Imperial College London, said:
“Some comments on virus dose, load and shedding.
“Viruses are not poisons, within the cell they are self-replicating. That means an infection can start with just a small number of articles (the ‘dose’). The actual minimum number varies between different viruses and we don’t yet know what that ‘minimum infectious dose’ is for COVID-19, but we might presume it’s around a hundred virus particles.
Last edited:
You might be 'pretty sure' it is, whereas I'm absolutely certain it isn't 😉
Would your face not absorb some that poison? Would the poison not just stay on your nose, lips etc. regardless or whether you had just inhaled or not?
I figured the reason every country was late to recommend masks was simply that they were using inappopriate masks as ppe during a shortage and didn't want to create more competition for their supply. Then once they have sufficient n95 protection they change the tune.
I've noticed a lot of people with masks having a false sense of security .
I've noticed a lot of people with masks having a false sense of security .
When you inhale, the air comes from a speech bubble in front of your nose and mouth. The airflow doesn't have the opportunity to slide up your face and entrain particles of the virus as you breathe in. The only way you could achieve this is if there was a gentle wind blowing from behind you, the droplets were atomized and you breathed in with enough force to pull in the outflowing air along with the shielded air in front of you. Or if you were walking backwards for some reason.
The highly porous mask is different because the droplets are deposited right in the way of the airflow for every breath you take.
I'm afraid the mask isn't like a star trek force field. It doesn't keep out the virus, it merely holds them up on the fibres, and with the continual air flow they will work their way into you mouth. You'd need s mask with enough thickness or layers of fibres, that 8hours of breathing isn't sufficient for the virus to work it's way through.
Why exactly is handling the mask a problem? If the mask keeps the virus out then touching it with contaminated hands should be totally fine.
WASHINGTON/CHICAGO (Reuters) - President Donald Trump on Tuesday ordered meat-processing plants to stay open to protect the food supply in the United States, despite concerns about coronavirus outbreaks, drawing a backlash from unions that said at-risk workers required more protection.
With concerns about food shortages and supply chain disruptions, Trump issued an executive order using the Defense Production Act to mandate that the plants continue to function.
The world’s biggest meat companies, including Smithfield Foods Inc, Cargill Inc, JBS USA and Tyson, have halted operations at about 20 slaughterhouses and processing plants in North America as workers fall ill, stoking global fears of a meat shortage.
The order is designed in part to give companies legal cover with more liability protection in case employees catch the virus as a result of having to go to work.
John H. Tyson, chairman of Tyson Foods, said on Sunday that the food supply chain was “breaking” and warned of the potential for meat shortages.
Before issuing the executive order, Trump told reporters in the Oval Office that signing the order, “... will solve any liability problems,” adding, “And we always work with the farmers. There’s plenty of supply.”
The executive order, released Tuesday evening, said the closure of just one large beef-processing plant could result in 10 million fewer individual servings of beef in a day.
“Such closures threaten the continued functioning of the national meat and poultry supply chain, undermining critical infrastructure during the national emergency,” the order said.
A senior administration official said the U.S. government would also provide guidance to minimize risk to workers who are especially vulnerable to the virus, such as encouraging older workers and those with other chronic health issues to stay home.
Unions were not impressed. Some farmers said it was too late because pigs had been euthanized already instead of the pork going to market.
“While we share the concern over the food supply, today’s executive order to force meatpacking plants to stay open must put the safety of our country’s meatpacking workers first,” the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union said in a statement.
UFCW, the largest U.S. meat-packing union, demanded that the administration compel meat companies to provide “the highest level of protective equipment” to slaughterhouse workers and ensure daily coronavirus testing.
The senior administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said if action were not taken, the vast majority of processing plants could have shut down for a period of time, reducing capacity by as much as 80%.
====================
Great, hundreds of sick people forced to go to work slaughtering animals and handling meat – this is definitely not going to backfire. Bat soup will soon seem like the healthy and safe option.
With concerns about food shortages and supply chain disruptions, Trump issued an executive order using the Defense Production Act to mandate that the plants continue to function.
The world’s biggest meat companies, including Smithfield Foods Inc, Cargill Inc, JBS USA and Tyson, have halted operations at about 20 slaughterhouses and processing plants in North America as workers fall ill, stoking global fears of a meat shortage.
The order is designed in part to give companies legal cover with more liability protection in case employees catch the virus as a result of having to go to work.
John H. Tyson, chairman of Tyson Foods, said on Sunday that the food supply chain was “breaking” and warned of the potential for meat shortages.
Before issuing the executive order, Trump told reporters in the Oval Office that signing the order, “... will solve any liability problems,” adding, “And we always work with the farmers. There’s plenty of supply.”
The executive order, released Tuesday evening, said the closure of just one large beef-processing plant could result in 10 million fewer individual servings of beef in a day.
“Such closures threaten the continued functioning of the national meat and poultry supply chain, undermining critical infrastructure during the national emergency,” the order said.
A senior administration official said the U.S. government would also provide guidance to minimize risk to workers who are especially vulnerable to the virus, such as encouraging older workers and those with other chronic health issues to stay home.
Unions were not impressed. Some farmers said it was too late because pigs had been euthanized already instead of the pork going to market.
“While we share the concern over the food supply, today’s executive order to force meatpacking plants to stay open must put the safety of our country’s meatpacking workers first,” the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union said in a statement.
UFCW, the largest U.S. meat-packing union, demanded that the administration compel meat companies to provide “the highest level of protective equipment” to slaughterhouse workers and ensure daily coronavirus testing.
The senior administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said if action were not taken, the vast majority of processing plants could have shut down for a period of time, reducing capacity by as much as 80%.
====================
Great, hundreds of sick people forced to go to work slaughtering animals and handling meat – this is definitely not going to backfire. Bat soup will soon seem like the healthy and safe option.
So the drops land between your mouth and nose would you not have a massive chance of inhaling them?
I assume so yes. Especially if you have a beard, then the bit forming the Hitler part of it would effectively have the droplets suspended right in the middle of the air flow ready to be carried into your respiratory tract. But that is still about 5% of the surface area of a mask. But do you see how complicated the physics are here? It would take even me years of dedicated work to come to a correct conclusion. So when these expert scientists give their expert opinion on what you should do, be prepared for it to get you killed.
I suggest instead of hypothesising you go and actually read up a little on how wrong your ideas of transmission are. What you are suggesting is that, even without a mask, short of someone coughing in your face you can't catch it from airborne droplets - which is a million times wrong. Especially when the viral load required for infection is still unknown (refer to my post above though).
When you breathe in you suck in air from in front of your nose/mouth, whatever is in that volume of air will be inhaled into your lungs. There is no 'clean air speech bubble'. As you move around you move into different volumes of air that may in turn carry the virus breathed out by the people in close proximity to you (before the droplets descend). It's why scientists have shown the chances of catching it are far higher in an enclosed environment and yet very very low when outdoors (unless in a crowd).
Again I'd direct you to the NL/Belgian research on this virus and the dynamics of wind flow where they suggest a cough could actually reach as far as 15m or more outside (due to wind flow) and that it may take minutes for all droplets to descend.
As to why handling a mask is a problem : it's the number one reason some doctors don't recommend them - not because they are ineffective at preventing the virus reaching your lungs but because people don't take them off and dispose of them properly and transfer virus from the exterior to their faces, some reuse them without any form of disinfection and some may wear them for more than the 4 hours they are rated for (which counters your 'breathing in the virus from the mask' and '8 hours' theories which are only true if they are misused. Like eating food well beyond its expiry date).