BYE BYE ROY!!!!!

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42120.msg1219290#msg1219290 date=1289917045]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1219286#msg1219286 date=1289916763]
I think he means that Purslow and Broughton wouldnt have appointed a lame duck like Hodgson had we not been facing economic destitution 6 months ago.
[/quote]

Ah, it makes sense now.

Wait, no. No it doesn't.
[/quote]

When Hodgson was appointed, it was clear that they were of the view that Rafa had to be replaced. The fact that a poor choice was made probably did have a lot to do with the fact that any top manager wouldnt touch us with a barge pole.

We were in a mess, and no one evn knew if we'd be in administration in a matter of months.

The fact that a poor choice was made doesnt necessarily mean that no choice should have been made, even if has backfired spectacularly.

Unless of course you're still of the view that Purslow and the Chelsea Lover were in actual fact trying to destroy Liverpool from within, which was why hey apointed a shit manager.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1219356#msg1219356 date=1289921643]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42120.msg1219290#msg1219290 date=1289917045]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1219286#msg1219286 date=1289916763]
I think he means that Purslow and Broughton wouldnt have appointed a lame duck like Hodgson had we not been facing economic destitution 6 months ago.
[/quote]

Ah, it makes sense now.

Wait, no. No it doesn't.
[/quote]

When Hodgson was appointed, it was clear that they were of the view that Rafa had to be replaced. The fact that a poor choice was made probably did have a lot to do with the fact that any top manager wouldnt touch us with a barge pole.

We were in a mess, and no one evn knew if we'd be in administration in a matter of months.

The fact that a poor choice was made doesnt necessarily mean that no choice should have been made, even if has backfired spectacularly.

Unless of course you're still of the view that Purslow and the Chelsea Lover were in actual fact trying to destroy Liverpool from within, which was why hey apointed a shit manager.
[/quote]

you say that, ave, but roy is still here.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219354#msg1219354 date=1289921462]
Just a quick note: I think that we're so dissapointed with how everything is turning out, that many have forgotten just how terrible we were last season...

Of the 13 league matches we've played this season, we played 11 of those teams last season. When you compare the exact fixtures (Arse @ home, City away, etc...), we're a whopping 2 points worse off than we were last season against those same teams. If you swap Burnley and Hull for Blackpool and West Brom, it's 5 points.

Yes, we're playing shite football. Yes, Roy seems badly out of his depth. But let's not forget that we seem to be in universal agreement that last season's squad was better than this one, so we're really not doing enormously worse than then, are we?

We've been shit for ages now, and it's not all Roy's fault.
[/quote]

Oh great, we're not doing enormously worse than last season. Excellent.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1219358#msg1219358 date=1289921796]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1219356#msg1219356 date=1289921643]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42120.msg1219290#msg1219290 date=1289917045]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42120.msg1219286#msg1219286 date=1289916763]
I think he means that Purslow and Broughton wouldnt have appointed a lame duck like Hodgson had we not been facing economic destitution 6 months ago.
[/quote]

Ah, it makes sense now.

Wait, no. No it doesn't.
[/quote]

When Hodgson was appointed, it was clear that they were of the view that Rafa had to be replaced. The fact that a poor choice was made probably did have a lot to do with the fact that any top manager wouldnt touch us with a barge pole.

We were in a mess, and no one evn knew if we'd be in administration in a matter of months.

The fact that a poor choice was made doesnt necessarily mean that no choice should have been made, even if has backfired spectacularly.

Unless of course you're still of the view that Purslow and the Chelsea Lover were in actual fact trying to destroy Liverpool from within, which was why hey apointed a shit manager.
[/quote]

you say that, ave, but roy is still here.
[/quote]


Yeah, hopefully for not much longer hough 🙁

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42120.msg1219359#msg1219359 date=1289921814]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219354#msg1219354 date=1289921462]
Just a quick note: I think that we're so dissapointed with how everything is turning out, that many have forgotten just how terrible we were last season...

Of the 13 league matches we've played this season, we played 11 of those teams last season. When you compare the exact fixtures (Arse @ home, City away, etc...), we're a whopping 2 points worse off than we were last season against those same teams. If you swap Burnley and Hull for Blackpool and West Brom, it's 5 points.

Yes, we're playing shite football. Yes, Roy seems badly out of his depth. But let's not forget that we seem to be in universal agreement that last season's squad was better than this one, so we're really not doing enormously worse than then, are we?

We've been shit for ages now, and it's not all Roy's fault.
[/quote]

Oh great, we're not doing enormously worse than last season. Excellent.
[/quote]

My point is that it's not ALL Roy's fault, Gerry - That's all.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I know.

But, the very least you expect from a new manager is to improve on the performances of the manger who got sacked. Basically all you've admitted is that Rafa was the better manager, but then we all already knew that.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219361#msg1219361 date=1289921946]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42120.msg1219359#msg1219359 date=1289921814]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219354#msg1219354 date=1289921462]
Just a quick note: I think that we're so dissapointed with how everything is turning out, that many have forgotten just how terrible we were last season...

Of the 13 league matches we've played this season, we played 11 of those teams last season. When you compare the exact fixtures (Arse @ home, City away, etc...), we're a whopping 2 points worse off than we were last season against those same teams. If you swap Burnley and Hull for Blackpool and West Brom, it's 5 points.

Yes, we're playing shite football. Yes, Roy seems badly out of his depth. But let's not forget that we seem to be in universal agreement that last season's squad was better than this one, so we're really not doing enormously worse than then, are we?

We've been shit for ages now, and it's not all Roy's fault.
[/quote]

Oh great, we're not doing enormously worse than last season. Excellent.
[/quote]

My point is that it's not ALL Roy's fault, Gerry - That's all.
[/quote]

well roy seems to thing NONE of it is his fault, so the truth will be somewhere in the middle.

 

[Whaddapie]

Yes, that's fair. And yes, we all know Rafa's a better manager than Roy.

But I've also shown that he wasn't doing much better than this last season, with a better squad. Like I said earlier, some seem to have forgotten how shite last season was too.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1219363#msg1219363 date=1289922149]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219361#msg1219361 date=1289921946]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42120.msg1219359#msg1219359 date=1289921814]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219354#msg1219354 date=1289921462]
Just a quick note: I think that we're so dissapointed with how everything is turning out, that many have forgotten just how terrible we were last season...

Of the 13 league matches we've played this season, we played 11 of those teams last season. When you compare the exact fixtures (Arse @ home, City away, etc...), we're a whopping 2 points worse off than we were last season against those same teams. If you swap Burnley and Hull for Blackpool and West Brom, it's 5 points.

Yes, we're playing shite football. Yes, Roy seems badly out of his depth. But let's not forget that we seem to be in universal agreement that last season's squad was better than this one, so we're really not doing enormously worse than then, are we?

We've been shit for ages now, and it's not all Roy's fault.
[/quote]

Oh great, we're not doing enormously worse than last season. Excellent.
[/quote]

My point is that it's not ALL Roy's fault, Gerry - That's all.
[/quote]

well roy seems to thing NONE of it is his fault, so the truth will be somewhere in the middle.
[/quote]

Of course. Team selections, tactics, formations, substitutions are all his fault...

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219365#msg1219365 date=1289922286]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1219363#msg1219363 date=1289922149]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219361#msg1219361 date=1289921946]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42120.msg1219359#msg1219359 date=1289921814]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=42120.msg1219354#msg1219354 date=1289921462]
Just a quick note: I think that we're so dissapointed with how everything is turning out, that many have forgotten just how terrible we were last season...

Of the 13 league matches we've played this season, we played 11 of those teams last season. When you compare the exact fixtures (Arse @ home, City away, etc...), we're a whopping 2 points worse off than we were last season against those same teams. If you swap Burnley and Hull for Blackpool and West Brom, it's 5 points.

Yes, we're playing shite football. Yes, Roy seems badly out of his depth. But let's not forget that we seem to be in universal agreement that last season's squad was better than this one, so we're really not doing enormously worse than then, are we?

We've been shit for ages now, and it's not all Roy's fault.
[/quote]

Oh great, we're not doing enormously worse than last season. Excellent.
[/quote]

My point is that it's not ALL Roy's fault, Gerry - That's all.
[/quote]

well roy seems to thing NONE of it is his fault, so the truth will be somewhere in the middle.
[/quote]

Of course. Team selections, tactics, formations, substitutions are all his fault...
[/quote]

somethings I don't blame roy for;

a) lack of striking options.
there is ONE striker worthy of the name on the books.
ngog is a kid, kuyt is a forward, gerrard is midfielder/forward.
he wasn't going to fix that in one transfer window.

b) lack of options at fullback.
he wasn't going to fix that in one transfer window.

c) a lot of his options are injury prone.
he wasn't going to fix that in one transfer window.

d) the squad has hardly any depth
he wasn't going to fix that in one transfer window.

e) he came in when the club was in turmoil.
but then it's fair to say he was HIRED because the club was in turmoil.

what I do blame roy for is the inability to get more out of the squad.
wasn't that why he was hired?

his inability to 'steady the ship'
wasn't that why he was hired?

his treatment of some of his playing staff ('b team', why to instill togetherness roy)
wasn't that why he was hired (arm round the shoulder type of manager)?

his inability to so the simple and often OBVIOUS things
wasn't that why he was hired?

it's not ALL of roy's fault but a lot of it is.

 

[Whaddapie]

That all sounds fair to me...

 

[LarryHagman]

I wanted an British Manager. Full stop. I know some foreign fans, and some English ones for that matter, placed no faith in any of the candidates. But, the club had gone weird full stop, our failure to compete against a British spine was obvious. In 2 seasons, 1 Ged, 1 Rafa, we had shown some ability to compete on an internal level. But that was in 12 years. Not good enough.
We needed a change.
I accept now Roy is not the answer.
However, what is getting levelled his way is ridiculous and makes me squirm slightly. Supporting LFC obviously ain't what it used to be. There is defo no YNWA alone anymore, only an instant success requirement that the Prem & Sky have engendered. Rafa signed some good players. But more shit ones. He was hindered by owners, but not completely, let's not kid ourselves. He had plenty of money to spend, most of it was spent poorly.
Our squad ain't great. We have some WC players in Gerrard, Reina & Torres & some good ones on top of that. No more. We have tons of average players.

For what gets levelled at Roy;
We're defensive - Is this a joke after the last flat back 10 merchant we had?
Roy plays players out of position - So did Rafa.
Roy isn't giving Pacheco a chance - Neither did Rafa.
Jonaovic is shit - Who signed him?
Pouslen is shit - I agree.
4-2-3-1 is useless - Rafa accidentally stumbled on it & it suited for while. It doesn't now. It didn't last season either under Rafa but he didn't notice.
Johnson - A decent player, by no means shit, but by no means worth 17M & 120K a week, not when you have other needs

Our squad is weak.

Alienating Alonso & then losing him wasn't great. It started a downward.

Rafa had some great highs but some terrible lows. He was good when he was good, but needed to go. Because, when he was bad, he was terrible.

Maybe Roy isn't the man for us. But he's fire-fighting. He's not much good at it admittedly. But I'm not into this benitez gets better by the week theory. Coz he neeed sacking.

 

[manwithnoname]

'Maybe Roy isn't the man for us'

Gosh really d'you think?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=42120.msg1219377#msg1219377 date=1289924020]
For what gets levelled at Roy;
We're defensive - Is this a joke after the last flat back 10 merchant we had?
[/quote]

at least when gh and rafa were defensive we had the players to make it work, I will also add those managers were etremely good at many being defensive work to our advantage (I think gh/rafa away record was pretty darn good) we some to be defensive for the sake of being defensive and isolating the attacking players into the bargin.
was torres this isolated under rafa? was owen isolated under gh?

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=42120.msg1219377#msg1219377 date=1289924020]

I wanted an British Manager. Full stop. I know some foreign fans, and some English ones for that matter, placed no faith in any of the candidates. But, the club had gone weird full stop, our failure to compete against a British spine was obvious. In 2 seasons, 1 Ged, 1 Rafa, we had shown some ability to compete on an internal level. But that was in 12 years. Not good enough.
We needed a change.
I accept now Roy is not the answer.
However, what is getting levelled his way is ridiculous and makes me squirm slightly. Supporting LFC obviously ain't what it used to be. There is defo no YNWA alone anymore, only an instant success requirement that the Prem & Sky have engendered. Rafa signed some good players. But more shit ones. He was hindered by owners, but not completely, let's not kid ourselves. He had plenty of money to spend, most of it was spent poorly.
Our squad ain't great. We have some WC players in Gerrard, Reina & Torres & some good ones on top of that. No more. We have tons of average players.

For what gets levelled at Roy;
We're defensive - Is this a joke after the last flat back 10 merchant we had?
Roy plays players out of position - So did Rafa.
Roy isn't giving Pacheco a chance - Neither did Rafa.
Jonaovic is shit - Who signed him?
Pouslen is shit - I agree.
4-2-3-1 is useless - Rafa accidentally stumbled on it & it suited for while. It doesn't now. It didn't last season either under Rafa but he didn't notice.
Johnson - A decent player, by no means shit, but by no means worth 17M & 120K a week, not when you have other needs

Our squad is weak.

Alienating Alonso & then losing him wasn't great. It started a downward.

Rafa had some great highs but some terrible lows. He was good when he was good, but needed to go. Because, when he was bad, he was terrible.

Maybe Roy isn't the man for us. But he's fire-fighting. He's not much good at it admittedly. But I'm not into this benitez gets better by the week theory. Coz he neeed sacking.


[/quote]


1. you wanted a british manager so we could compete better in the premier league, following the lead of the likes of wenger, mourinho and ancelotti. right. good point.
2. benitez never had us playing stylish football over a long period, but it was never a deep-sitting, negative, counter-attacking system either. hodgson's negativity is a valid criticism, even when compared to benitez.
3. the ONLY time benitez had the opportunity to give pacheco a chance (due to his age) was last season, when he got a bit of time in the european games, and was then off playing with spain for long periods. the time to give him a go is NOW, much more so than any time under rafa, and hodgson hasn't done it.
4. when has jovanovic's form or ability EVER been blamed on hodgson?!!!! you're imagining things.
5. benitez accidentally stumbled on 4-2-3-1? you do realise that his valencia team are seen as the first example in european football of the formation being used in its purest sense, with 4 distinct bands of players, as opposed to a withdrawn attacker n a 4-4-2? he practically invented the formation!

 

[dirtyho]

We've been shit for ages now, and it's not all Roy's fault.

Liverpool final league position 2008/9 - 2nd

OK Sherlock....

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42120.msg1219532#msg1219532 date=1289943386]

We've been shit for ages now, and it's not all Roy's fault.

Liverpool final league position 2008/9 - 2nd

OK Sherlock....
[/quote]

lol

 

[Buddha]

Is there any point to the Rafa/Ged references?

Surely the bottom line is that Roy isn't good enough in any way, shape or form.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Buddha link=topic=42120.msg1219545#msg1219545 date=1289944509]
Is there any point to the Rafa/Ged references?

Surely the bottom line is that Roy isn't good enough in any way, shape or form.
[/quote]

im with you. I'm completely sick of the pointless one upsmanship that happens nowadays. roy isn't good enough and thats what we should be focused on

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Yep

 

[Fabio]

then again the forum would die if we did that



Roy evans was better than benitez

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42120.msg1219532#msg1219532 date=1289943386]

We've been shit for ages now, and it's not all Roy's fault.

Liverpool final league position 2008/9 - 2nd

OK Sherlock....
[/quote]

This has been done to death... League positioning doesn't dictate the style used to get there. Defensive, bring football can win the league - Remember boring, boring Arsenal? We simply forgive the tactics that aren't aesthetically pleasing when they're effective.

Our form from August to February of that season was diabolical and though early results against the likes of Middlesboro and City flattered to decieve, our ever-worsening performances and results from November until February ultimately cost us the league. We were very fortunate to be in first place to begin with, and once there, we played horrible, defensive, scared football. We played afraid, holding out for the draw rather than risk the loss to gain the win. See the Arsenal match at Higbury as a storyboard for that entire time-frame. At a time when Man U and Chelsea were falling over themselves to gift us the title, we contrived to piss it away, instead of grabbing it with both hands...

So, when you add that half of that season to all of last season and all of this season so far, that's utter shite that we've been playing for two of the past (almost) two and a half seasons.

 

[Ryan]

If we got Tony Pulis in as our next manager, signed Rory Delap and Kenwyne Jones and spent the next 5 years humping the fucking ball into the box for 90 minutes, but finished in the top 4 every year - would anyone care?

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=42120.msg1219561#msg1219561 date=1289945734]
If we got Tony Pulis in as our next manager, signed Rory Delap and Kenwyne Jones and spent the next 5 years humping the fucking ball into the box for 90 minutes, but finished in the top 4 every year - would anyone care?
[/quote]

me a bit.

by the 3rd year i imagine

 

[dirtyho]

This has been done to death... League positioning doesn't dictate the style used to get there. Defensive, bring football can win the league - Remember boring, boring Arsenal? We simply forgive the tactics that aren't aesthetically pleaseing when they're effective.

Our form from August to February of that season was diabolical and though early results against the likes of Middlesboro and City flattered to decieve, our ever-worsening performances and results from November until February ultimately cost us the league. We were very fortunate to be in first place to begin with, and once there, we played horrible, defensive, scared football. We played afraid, holding out for the draw rather than risk the loss to gain the win. See the Arsenal match at Higbury as a storyboard for the entire seaon. When Man U and Chelsea were falling over themselves to gift us the title, we contrived to piss it away, instead of grabbing it with both hands...

So, when you add that half of that season to all of last season and all of this season so far, that's utter shite that we've been playing for two of the past (almost) two and a half seasons.

I take your point about style of play, thats your opinion and your perfectly entitled to it.

However many would argue that Chelsea fans "simply forgive the tactics that aren't aesthetically pleaseing when they're effective." in the case of Mourinho.

My point is this is a league of 18 teams and:

2005/6 - 3rd
2006/7 - 3rd
2007/8 - 4th
2008/9 - 2nd

is not "shit".

It isn't winning the league which is what people want - but to call it "shit" in a league of 18 lacks perspective.

I understand that it's not good enough for him and put the "shit" label down to frustration

 

[Whaddapie]

Fair enough - I've been referring only to the style of football that we've been playing for the past 2.5 seasons...

For me, though it's effectiveness has varied, it has, for the most part, been awful, negative, boring, unimaginative, 'flat' football. We've been very, very hard to watch for a long time now, regardless of league position.

I also think that your perspective re: league positioning (above) echoes what I'm saying in the first place - On paper like that, two 3rd places and a 4th in three seasons seems very respectable. And to an extent, it is. But remember, in every one of those seasons, we were out of any kind of contention for the league before Christmas. So, (imo) some tend to forget the circumstances that got us to each of these respective points...

 

[dirtyho]

We've been very, very hard to watch for a long time now, regardless of league position.

I don't agree completely.
I think we've been very, very hard to watch some of the time.
We've been nothing special to watch, but effective most of the time (but frustratingly unambitious away and against the dreaded "lesser" teams.
And we've been fantastic occasionally, mostly in Europe.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42120.msg1219580#msg1219580 date=1289946782]

We've been very, very hard to watch for a long time now, regardless of league position.

I don't agree completely.
I think we've been very, very hard to watch some of the time.
We've been nothing special to watch, but effective most of the time (but frustratingly unambitious away and against the dreaded "lesser" teams.
And we've been fantastic occasionally, mostly in Europe.
[/quote]

Genuine question: When was the last time that you genuinely looked forward to watching LFC play football, over a sustained period of time? And I'm not talking about they way we all watch, 'cos we're propgrammed to... I mean, when was the last time you salivated at the thought of watching us?

 

[dirtyho]

Genuine answer - season before last when we came 2nd

 

[SaintGeorge67]

The inter game at anfield