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BENITEZ BACKS BABEL TO STEP UP

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[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg909872#msg909872 date=1248204602]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=34828.msg909871#msg909871 date=1248204111]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=34828.msg909850#msg909850 date=1248200560]
If a Dutch player can get to Babel's age & still have the first touch of a rapist then he simply hasnt got what it takes.
[/quote]

Dirk's done alright don't you think?
[/quote]

anyway, how many people in our squad have a good first touch? five? less?
[/quote]

There's having a reasonable first touch and there's Babel. There are few players in the squad who can have a ball telegraphed to them from 30 yards, to perfection, on their right foot and then somehow inexplicably raise their leg so it bounces off their shin to an opposition player 3 yards away.

Your defence of Babel is admirable Neil, but he really has had an easy ride, based on 'potential' and raw attributes.

At his age potential is practically a non-entity.

He can crack a shot and hold off a defender when he feels like it, but he's equally capable of schoolboy naivety.
 
I think all this Babel is a dud talk is bollocks, personally.

He showed more than enough ability in his first season here, was more or less a ressie last season and still looked alright when he came on.

Considering he's a young lad living in a new country with a manager like Rafa trying to coach him into an attacking talent, I don't think he's done half bad. He's proven he can score goals, he's proven he's got a bit of skill in the locker, as he ages,hopefully he'll get something between the ears and between a half decent footballer.

In short, he's not that bad.
 
He's a tough player to weigh up, he's sublime on occasion and then so frustratingly naive. He started that game against St Gallen pretty well showing some good positive stuff, and then gradually as the game wore on I remembered what was so infuriating about him, and it was the usual, simple stuff.

He played a great ball wide while darting towards the edge of the box. Instead of continuing into the box for the return, he stopped and stood in admiration at what he just did, meanwhile the return ball which was pumped across the box resulted in fuck all.

THAT'S the kind of thing that annoys the shite out of me with him.
 
I read that as we cant/wont be buying anyone so if we are all nice to Babel then maybe he could be useful for the skwaaaad.

... or maybe just maybe he has actually caught on that his days are numbered and has pull his socks up and impressed Rafa.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34828.msg909896#msg909896 date=1248207580]
He's a tough player to weigh up, he's sublime on occasion and then so frustratingly naive. He started that game against St Gallen pretty well showing some good positive stuff, and then gradually as the game wore on I remembered what was so infuriating about him, and it was the usual, simple stuff.

He played a great ball wide while darting towards the edge of the box. Instead of continuing into the box for the return, he stopped and stood in admiration at what he just did, meanwhile the return ball which was pumped across the box resulted in fuck all.

THAT'S the kind of thing that annoys the shite out of me with him.
[/quote]

He also has a habit of beating his man and then inexplicably cutting back towards them, thereby ruining his own good work.

He just doesn't seem to be able to read situations at all. There's only so much a coach can do - he can take Ryan through situations and tell him how he can react to them and where he should be, but once he's on the pitch, he's on his own, and too often he looks like a lost child. It's like everybody else is on a frequency he can't tune in to.

If he'd shown significant signs of improvement in his basic control, passing and decision-making then I'd be relatively excited about him because he has all the physical attributes to succeed. But he hasn't. The same glaring holes in his game are still as obvious as the first day he arrived - more so even.

There's still a tiny part of me that hopes his brain has been in standby and that he'll suddenly flick the 'ON' switch and start looking like the player we thought he could be, but it's a rapidly fading one.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34828.msg909917#msg909917 date=1248212166]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34828.msg909896#msg909896 date=1248207580]
He's a tough player to weigh up, he's sublime on occasion and then so frustratingly naive. He started that game against St Gallen pretty well showing some good positive stuff, and then gradually as the game wore on I remembered what was so infuriating about him, and it was the usual, simple stuff.

He played a great ball wide while darting towards the edge of the box. Instead of continuing into the box for the return, he stopped and stood in admiration at what he just did, meanwhile the return ball which was pumped across the box resulted in fuck all.

THAT'S the kind of thing that annoys the shite out of me with him.
[/quote]

He also has a habit of beating his man and then inexplicably cutting back towards them, thereby ruining his own good work.

He just doesn't seem to be able to read situations at all. There's only so much a coach can do - he can take Ryan through situations and tell him how he can react to them and where he should be, but once he's on the pitch, he's on his own, and too often he looks like a lost child. It's like everybody else is on a frequency he can't tune in to.

If he'd shown significant signs of improvement in his basic control, passing and decision-making then I'd be relatively excited about him because he has all the physical attributes to succeed. But he hasn't. The same glaring holes in his game are still as obvious as the first day he arrived - more so even.

There's still a tiny part of me that hopes his brain has been in standby and that he'll suddenly flick the 'ON' switch and start looking like the player we thought he could be, but it's a rapidly fading one.
[/quote]

Top post, dont get me wrong that goal he scored where he did the defender (derby??) with just a slight feint of his shoulders was quality, very very fews players can beat people so simply and it is a sign of top quality but by the same token you NEED to work hard in the prem and think at the same time as you play and he simply doesnt. Without even going on to list his faults his ball retention alone is a reason to not play him. He could be a great player but then flaws in his game are glaring and IMO his attitude has been one of a spoilt lazy brat, i think basically he has been out of his depth more or less since he realised how hard things were going to be.

Maybe just maybe he can buckle down and shape up into a cracking player, maybe the apologists are right and he needs some confidence to get back some swagger to his game but i will not be holding my breath.
 
You all have a go at - but he is one of the few players in our team who can get past other players with skill. Players like that take a lot of pressure of the team - I just don't think we use him correctly for him to be at his best. He plays like he has some sort of constraint around him. Does not look right - Rafa should let him play his natural game but tell him to track back when the need arises.
 
[quote author=moron link=topic=34828.msg909964#msg909964 date=1248224053]
You all have a go at - but he is one of the few players in our team who can get past other players with skill.
[/quote]

Replace "skill" with "his pace, which is his only decent attribute. He's Micah Richards on the right wing" and you're about right.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=34828.msg909967#msg909967 date=1248224410]
[quote author=moron link=topic=34828.msg909964#msg909964 date=1248224053]
You all have a go at - but he is one of the few players in our team who can get past other players with skill.
[/quote]

Replace "skill" with "his pace, which is his only decent attribute. He's Micah Richards on the right wing" and you're about right.
[/quote]

he goes past (or attempts to go past) players with skill, he'd probably be more successful if he DID kick the ball past players and attempted to do them with pace.
 
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
 
Exactly right.

It's like watching 'Drunken Master'.

Takes a swig and 'WOW WTF'

Then it wears off after a minute and its 'SHIT WTF'
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

One thing's for sure - It'll definitely be Rafa's fault if he doesn't succeed here.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

Let's leave the needs to improve to get games vs needs games to improve argument as I always get drawn into it.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=34828.msg910054#msg910054 date=1248244327]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

One thing's for sure - It'll definitely be Rafa's fault if he doesn't succeed here.
[/quote]

Just like it was for Keane ...
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

I don't even think that's the issue, that's probably being incredibly simplistic. My problem with him isn't his defensive play, at the end of the day he's a winger/striker, he can track back when needed and he's got enough power about him for that to be worked on. It's the sides of his game that seem to have stagnated, or deteriorated even.

His biggest issue for me is his decision making, it's basic stuff which at his age you've either got or you haven't. People called Cisse 'brainless' but at least he knew how to use his strengths even if he was a whinging cunt, at least he knew how to use what limited skills he had. Babel just doesn't seem to know what to do half the time.

His first touch is inconsistent and sometimes really horrible, he gives the ball away through making poor decisions over passes and poor decisions over his movement. His movement off the ball in build up play is often lacking, which is quite frustrating given he has the ability to burst into the box without being picked up by a defender - when he comes off the bench.

People bang on about his substitute impact. He has pace and he has power, so it works late on against tired legs. It's rare that it's actually worked from the off in games though where more game intelligence is required, and this is where he really falls short and gets found out. Until he can start using his brain a bit more and playing to and understanding his own strengths, he's going to continue to struggle to make a consistent impact.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=34828.msg910054#msg910054 date=1248244327]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

One thing's for sure - It'll definitely be Rafa's fault if he doesn't succeed here.
[/quote]

you know what ryan, I don't really have a problem with lucas, I never have even with bren was ripping into him every game but the more you go on about babel and ignore all of lucas' patently obvious flaws the more I'm growing to dislike lucas. your double standards are laughable.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34828.msg910068#msg910068 date=1248248218]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

I don't even think that's the issue, that's probably being incredibly simplistic. My problem with him isn't his defensive play, at the end of the day he's a winger/striker, he can track back when needed and he's got enough power about him for that to be worked on. It's the sides of his game that seem to have stagnated, or deteriorated even.

His biggest issue for me is his decision making, it's basic stuff which at his age you've either got or you haven't. People called Cisse 'brainless' but at least he knew how to use his strengths even if he was a whinging cunt, at least he knew how to use what limited skills he had. Babel just doesn't seem to know what to do half the time.

His first touch is inconsistent and sometimes really horrible, he gives the ball away through making poor decisions over passes and poor decisions over his movement. His movement off the ball in build up play is often lacking, which is quite frustrating given he has the ability to burst into the box without being picked up by a defender - when he comes off the bench.

People bang on about his substitute impact. He has pace and he has power, so it works late on against tired legs. It's rare that it's actually worked from the off in games though where more game intelligence is required, and this is where he really falls short and gets found out. Until he can start using his brain a bit more and playing to and understanding his own strengths, he's going to continue to struggle to make a consistent impact.
[/quote]

I'm well aware of babel's flaws I just think if it clicks (which admittedly looks unlikely) I think he could be excellent. for instance in pre preseason when babel broke on the edge of the area I was staggered at how quickly he got up the pitch, he then has to check his run so everyone can catch up. he then passes to el zar, now what he SHOULD have done was use his incredible pace to push inside the box to recieve the pass back (whether el zar would have found him is irrelavent) but he waits on the edge of the box el zar fucks about abit, move breaks down.

another instance is babel has the ball on the edge of the box passes the ball to voronin and the DOES make a bee line inside the box, he throws his arms up in frustrastion when voronin doesn't pass the ball back to him. so after watching these two aspects of babel's play I don't know what conclusion to draw, are babel's seeming idiocy around the box because he doesn't know how and when to make proper runs or does he hang around the edge of the box because he doesn't trust people to pass to him. let's not forget that babel checked his run on the edge of the box v manu at home and ended up scoring the winner.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34828.msg910068#msg910068 date=1248248218]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

I don't even think that's the issue, that's probably being incredibly simplistic. My problem with him isn't his defensive play, at the end of the day he's a winger/striker, he can track back when needed and he's got enough power about him for that to be worked on. It's the sides of his game that seem to have stagnated, or deteriorated even.

His biggest issue for me is his decision making, it's basic stuff which at his age you've either got or you haven't. People called Cisse 'brainless' but at least he knew how to use his strengths even if he was a whinging cunt, at least he knew how to use what limited skills he had. Babel just doesn't seem to know what to do half the time.

His first touch is inconsistent and sometimes really horrible, he gives the ball away through making poor decisions over passes and poor decisions over his movement. His movement off the ball in build up play is often lacking, which is quite frustrating given he has the ability to burst into the box without being picked up by a defender - when he comes off the bench.

People bang on about his substitute impact. He has pace and he has power, so it works late on against tired legs. It's rare that it's actually worked from the off in games though where more game intelligence is required, and this is where he really falls short and gets found out. Until he can start using his brain a bit more and playing to and understanding his own strengths, he's going to continue to struggle to make a consistent impact.
[/quote]

Pretty good take on it. I'd add though that the speech from Rafa that started this all off came about because Babel was asked a question about how he would be better this year and he came up with an answer that was so lacking in self-belief and confidence it was cringe-worthy and Benitez obviously tried to step in with a well aimed self-esteem boost.

I really don't think Babel believes he can play this tactical football stuff Benitez favours and if he doesn't....... We can only save him for late game counter attacking for so long.
 
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=34828.msg910117#msg910117 date=1248255197]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34828.msg910068#msg910068 date=1248248218]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

I don't even think that's the issue, that's probably being incredibly simplistic. My problem with him isn't his defensive play, at the end of the day he's a winger/striker, he can track back when needed and he's got enough power about him for that to be worked on. It's the sides of his game that seem to have stagnated, or deteriorated even.

His biggest issue for me is his decision making, it's basic stuff which at his age you've either got or you haven't. People called Cisse 'brainless' but at least he knew how to use his strengths even if he was a whinging cunt, at least he knew how to use what limited skills he had. Babel just doesn't seem to know what to do half the time.

His first touch is inconsistent and sometimes really horrible, he gives the ball away through making poor decisions over passes and poor decisions over his movement. His movement off the ball in build up play is often lacking, which is quite frustrating given he has the ability to burst into the box without being picked up by a defender - when he comes off the bench.

People bang on about his substitute impact. He has pace and he has power, so it works late on against tired legs. It's rare that it's actually worked from the off in games though where more game intelligence is required, and this is where he really falls short and gets found out. Until he can start using his brain a bit more and playing to and understanding his own strengths, he's going to continue to struggle to make a consistent impact.
[/quote]

Pretty good take on it. I'd add though that the speech from Rafa that started this all off came about because Babel was asked a question about how he would be better this year and he came up with an answer that was so lacking in self-belief and confidence it was cringe-worthy and Benitez obviously tried to step in with a well aimed self-esteem boost.

I really don't think Babel believes he can play this tactical football stuff Benitez favours and if he doesn't....... We can only save him for late game counter attacking for so long.
[/quote]


to be honest I don't think that is true because some of our best performances of the season have come with babel on the pitch. the excellent performances were despite him though, obviously.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910121#msg910121 date=1248255496]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=34828.msg910117#msg910117 date=1248255197]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34828.msg910068#msg910068 date=1248248218]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

I don't even think that's the issue, that's probably being incredibly simplistic. My problem with him isn't his defensive play, at the end of the day he's a winger/striker, he can track back when needed and he's got enough power about him for that to be worked on. It's the sides of his game that seem to have stagnated, or deteriorated even.

His biggest issue for me is his decision making, it's basic stuff which at his age you've either got or you haven't. People called Cisse 'brainless' but at least he knew how to use his strengths even if he was a whinging cunt, at least he knew how to use what limited skills he had. Babel just doesn't seem to know what to do half the time.

His first touch is inconsistent and sometimes really horrible, he gives the ball away through making poor decisions over passes and poor decisions over his movement. His movement off the ball in build up play is often lacking, which is quite frustrating given he has the ability to burst into the box without being picked up by a defender - when he comes off the bench.

People bang on about his substitute impact. He has pace and he has power, so it works late on against tired legs. It's rare that it's actually worked from the off in games though where more game intelligence is required, and this is where he really falls short and gets found out. Until he can start using his brain a bit more and playing to and understanding his own strengths, he's going to continue to struggle to make a consistent impact.
[/quote]

Pretty good take on it. I'd add though that the speech from Rafa that started this all off came about because Babel was asked a question about how he would be better this year and he came up with an answer that was so lacking in self-belief and confidence it was cringe-worthy and Benitez obviously tried to step in with a well aimed self-esteem boost.

I really don't think Babel believes he can play this tactical football stuff Benitez favours and if he doesn't....... We can only save him for late game counter attacking for so long.
[/quote]


to be honest I don't think that is true because some of our best performances of the season have come with babel on the pitch. the excellent performances were despite him though, obviously.
[/quote]

Fair enough, for me our best performances came with Riera in the side.
 
Riera does give us a great balance, because he knows where to be at the right time and doesn't give the ball away. But lets not forget  there were times where he went on long periods without delivering a goal, an assist, or pretty much anything, any just drifted through games constantly serving up fuck-all.

That's when Babel deserved a chance, and he wasn't given it. 
 
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=34828.msg910136#msg910136 date=1248256394]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910121#msg910121 date=1248255496]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=34828.msg910117#msg910117 date=1248255197]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34828.msg910068#msg910068 date=1248248218]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

I don't even think that's the issue, that's probably being incredibly simplistic. My problem with him isn't his defensive play, at the end of the day he's a winger/striker, he can track back when needed and he's got enough power about him for that to be worked on. It's the sides of his game that seem to have stagnated, or deteriorated even.

His biggest issue for me is his decision making, it's basic stuff which at his age you've either got or you haven't. People called Cisse 'brainless' but at least he knew how to use his strengths even if he was a whinging cunt, at least he knew how to use what limited skills he had. Babel just doesn't seem to know what to do half the time.

His first touch is inconsistent and sometimes really horrible, he gives the ball away through making poor decisions over passes and poor decisions over his movement. His movement off the ball in build up play is often lacking, which is quite frustrating given he has the ability to burst into the box without being picked up by a defender - when he comes off the bench.

People bang on about his substitute impact. He has pace and he has power, so it works late on against tired legs. It's rare that it's actually worked from the off in games though where more game intelligence is required, and this is where he really falls short and gets found out. Until he can start using his brain a bit more and playing to and understanding his own strengths, he's going to continue to struggle to make a consistent impact.
[/quote]

Pretty good take on it. I'd add though that the speech from Rafa that started this all off came about because Babel was asked a question about how he would be better this year and he came up with an answer that was so lacking in self-belief and confidence it was cringe-worthy and Benitez obviously tried to step in with a well aimed self-esteem boost.

I really don't think Babel believes he can play this tactical football stuff Benitez favours and if he doesn't....... We can only save him for late game counter attacking for so long.
[/quote]


to be honest I don't think that is true because some of our best performances of the season have come with babel on the pitch. the excellent performances were despite him though, obviously.
[/quote]

Fair enough, for me our best performances came with Riera in the side.
[/quote]

you mean like manu away when he stunk the place out, or real madrid at home where he didn't figure?
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=34828.msg910140#msg910140 date=1248256742]
Riera does give us a great balance because he knows where to be at the right time, and doesn't give the ball away. But lets not forget where he went on long periods without delivering a goal, an assist, or pretty much anything, any just drifted through games constantly serving up fuck-all.

That's when Babel deserved a chance and he wasn't given it.
[/quote]

without turning this into a riera bashing thread, 4 goals with the amount of starts he had is piss poor.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=34828.msg910140#msg910140 date=1248256742]
Riera does give us a great balance because he knows where to be at the right time, and doesn't give the ball away. But lets not forget where he went on long periods without delivering a goal, an assist, or pretty much anything, any just drifted through games constantly serving up fuck-all.

That's when Babel deserved a chance and he wasn't given it.
[/quote]

For sure Riera is no world beater, but the fact of the matter is we play a possession game and the inability to retain possession is a grave failure in that context, it changes the whole character of the game.
 
Back to square one i.e. Babel's strengths. It's running fast and kicking the ball really hard.

Riera is no Cruyff but he's a much better footballer than Babel.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910141#msg910141 date=1248256753]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=34828.msg910136#msg910136 date=1248256394]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910121#msg910121 date=1248255496]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=34828.msg910117#msg910117 date=1248255197]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34828.msg910068#msg910068 date=1248248218]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34828.msg910050#msg910050 date=1248243957]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34828.msg910048#msg910048 date=1248243794]
I still like Babel even if I did give up on his Liverpool career middle of last season.

He was fantastic against Bolton (a) in his first season. Most of his other good work has come in flashes unfortunately and I can't see where the sudden improvement is going to come from.
[/quote]

my guess s if he works on his work rate and his deire to track back it's possible he will get a longer run in the side , if that happens I can see him improving. if he is in and out of the side then he isn't going to improve, I don't see how that's possible.
[/quote]

I don't even think that's the issue, that's probably being incredibly simplistic. My problem with him isn't his defensive play, at the end of the day he's a winger/striker, he can track back when needed and he's got enough power about him for that to be worked on. It's the sides of his game that seem to have stagnated, or deteriorated even.

His biggest issue for me is his decision making, it's basic stuff which at his age you've either got or you haven't. People called Cisse 'brainless' but at least he knew how to use his strengths even if he was a whinging cunt, at least he knew how to use what limited skills he had. Babel just doesn't seem to know what to do half the time.

His first touch is inconsistent and sometimes really horrible, he gives the ball away through making poor decisions over passes and poor decisions over his movement. His movement off the ball in build up play is often lacking, which is quite frustrating given he has the ability to burst into the box without being picked up by a defender - when he comes off the bench.

People bang on about his substitute impact. He has pace and he has power, so it works late on against tired legs. It's rare that it's actually worked from the off in games though where more game intelligence is required, and this is where he really falls short and gets found out. Until he can start using his brain a bit more and playing to and understanding his own strengths, he's going to continue to struggle to make a consistent impact.
[/quote]

Pretty good take on it. I'd add though that the speech from Rafa that started this all off came about because Babel was asked a question about how he would be better this year and he came up with an answer that was so lacking in self-belief and confidence it was cringe-worthy and Benitez obviously tried to step in with a well aimed self-esteem boost.

I really don't think Babel believes he can play this tactical football stuff Benitez favours and if he doesn't....... We can only save him for late game counter attacking for so long.
[/quote]


to be honest I don't think that is true because some of our best performances of the season have come with babel on the pitch. the excellent performances were despite him though, obviously.
[/quote]

Fair enough, for me our best performances came with Riera in the side.
[/quote]

you mean like manu away when he stunk the place out, or real madrid at home where he didn't figure?
[/quote]

Yeah, the manure win was a good team performance, as was Blackburn etc etc.

I see in your case Love is Blind.
 
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=34828.msg910143#msg910143 date=1248256852]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=34828.msg910140#msg910140 date=1248256742]
Riera does give us a great balance because he knows where to be at the right time, and doesn't give the ball away. But lets not forget where he went on long periods without delivering a goal, an assist, or pretty much anything, any just drifted through games constantly serving up fuck-all.

That's when Babel deserved a chance and he wasn't given it. 
[/quote]

For sure Riera is no world beater, but the fact of the matter is we play a possession game and the inability to retain possession is a grave failure in that context, it changes the whole character of the game.
[/quote]

Yeah, I pretty much agree to be honest.

But there are times when we need a spark; someone to not do the sensible and obvious decisions, to inject some directness into our play. I think Babel is capable of that from the bench, and as time goes on hopefully he'll see his squad status rise from 'super sub'.
 
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=34828.msg910145#msg910145 date=1248257091]

Back to square one i.e. Babel's strengths. It's running fast and kicking the ball really hard.

Riera is no Cruyff but he's a much better footballer than Babel.


[/quote]

I think he's a bit better than that makes it sound, but he seems to be one of those players where if you put too much into their head they just go to pieces. If he could just do his thing, he'd be a different player altogether methinks.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=34828.msg910147#msg910147 date=1248257204]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=34828.msg910143#msg910143 date=1248256852]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=34828.msg910140#msg910140 date=1248256742]
Riera does give us a great balance because he knows where to be at the right time, and doesn't give the ball away. But lets not forget where he went on long periods without delivering a goal, an assist, or pretty much anything, any just drifted through games constantly serving up fuck-all.

That's when Babel deserved a chance and he wasn't given it.
[/quote]

For sure Riera is no world beater, but the fact of the matter is we play a possession game and the inability to retain possession is a grave failure in that context, it changes the whole character of the game.
[/quote]

Yeah, I pretty much agree to be honest.

But there are times when we need a spark; someone to not do the sensible and obvious decisions, to inject some directness into our play. I think Babel is capable of that from the bench, and as time goes on hopefully he'll see his squad status rise from 'super sub'.


[/quote]

Agree, as mark said he's well suited to the late game situation, when all you have to do is counter attack, it doesn't really require much thinking and he excels, I hope we get lots of opportunities to use him this way early in the season, it'll hopefully give him a self-confidence boost from which he can kick-on.
 
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