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Benayoun hits out...

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[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=40931.msg1134040#msg1134040 date=1278814327]
God this kind of thing makes me really dislike Rafa.

It's not the Liverpool way and sickens me.

Yossi could have been so much more.
[/quote]

They think it's all over..it is now. We'll see more books in the coming years and we'll know if RAFA lost the dressing room long ago or not. It's good to have a patrician manager, - benitez and capello would be like this, but....man management works. That fine line...
 
Rafa is a fucking prick, end of story. I dont know how so many people still support him when he helped fuck our club up and treats his players like this. Unfortunate for benayoun but benitez is gone and if he really wanted to he wouldv stayed with hodgson incharge. so i dont wish him luck or anything. He is a prick aswell
 
I don't think Yossi was out of line. While his comments certainly weren't necessary, he has every right to tell his version and he was very complimentary about the club and its supporters, if considerably less so about our former manager.

Although I'm not particularly bothered by him leaving (nor do I think he'll be a big difference maker for Chelsea), I would rather have him still on our books than not.
 
[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=40931.msg1134023#msg1134023 date=1278806706]
Benitez was a prick to his players..

but Benayoun always came out and suggested if he doesnt start all the time then he would move on.
Communication between player and manager was obviously pretty poor. Benayoun seems to think he should be an automatic starter anywhere.. Truth is... most of the time you can easily forget that he is even on the pitch.

Not fussed that he has gone...
[/quote]

you're confusing the player with his agent, who like all agents (see masch) is a twit.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40931.msg1134037#msg1134037 date=1278812509]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40931.msg1134028#msg1134028 date=1278808240]
I think Yossi is bang on tbh, lets face it, it's only confirming what most have said for a long time regards Rafa's man-management skills. And most of this with Yossi is common knowledge now anyway, he's only filling in the gaps. I can't believe the amount of posters who've jumped in either Rafa's defence or on the attack over this.
[/quote]I agree. I dont want to get into another pointless long winded RCDNW vs RCDNR debate but Rafa was shit at man management and it shows. Just because most players dont have the mouth to say it (althout Murphy and others have intimated it) doesnt mean that he leaves too many tears behind him. It makes me wonder what Aurelio and Pellebastard do that makes them so immune, its certainly not their performances.
[/quote]

And it just makes me hopeful that Hodgson's approach will be what the team needs ...

What Yossi is mentioning is probably what sent Crouch (Brendan calls him shit, even though he cared for the club, never spoke badly and gave it his all), Riise (one mistake and you're fucked) and others packing. I wonder if Gerrard Carra or Torres will ever be open about the shit that went down.

After reading stuff like this, I wonder how ANYONE can seriously have wanted Rafa to stay over Hodgson ...
 
[quote author=Modokay link=topic=40931.msg1134036#msg1134036 date=1278812251]
I'm with Benayoun on this one.
Rafa's was out of order. This isn't the first time we hear players complaining about him.
I was expecting more of a reaction from the players when he left but I think they all felt the same, he had to go.

[/quote]

Pretty much this.

A manager's first obligation is to the club and personal feelings re. personalities put aside, if players were being frozen out or only grudgingly given game time for personal reasons (Xabi, Riera, Keane maybe Yossi) then the manager is failing in his duty to the club. I'm very pleased that Rafa has gone, he loved the club but his man management was a near unmitigated disaster.
 
Benitez was a disaster when it came to man management wasnt he. I dont really understand the bile towards Benayoun at the start of this thread, if this is true then you should be directing it at Benitez.
 
Why would we be evaluating whether Benayoun's account is "true". How simple.

Here's the thing with this board sometimes... If Benitez had made an extended statement regarding why some players didn't work out, from his perspective, would ANYONE be saying "how classy he didn't mention anything at the time". Fuck no. He'd be excoriated and people would wonder why he didn't shut the fuck about it, given that he's now in a new job.

Benayoun signed a new contract under Rafa, for lots of money. At the time he had positive things to say about Rafa, when he could have said nothing.

Since then, I don't dispute that Rafa didn't use him properly, and made strange selections, but there are a host of different explanations for the treatment other than the one Yossi percieves, or everyone is all too willing to believe on here, i.e. the explanation that casts Benitez in the worst light possible.

I also don't think Benayoun would have been "so much more" had he been used perfectly. He's a good but not great player.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=40931.msg1134067#msg1134067 date=1278831661]
Why would we be evaluating whether Benayoun's account is "true". How simple.

Here's the thing with this board sometimes... If Benitez had made an extended statement regarding why some players didn't work out, from his perspective, would ANYONE be saying "how classy he didn't mention anything at the time". Fuck no. He'd be excoriated and people would wonder why he didn't shut the fuck about it, given that he's now in a new job.

Benayoun signed a new contract under Rafa, for lots of money. At the time he had positive things to say about Rafa, when he could have said nothing.

Since then, I don't dispute that Rafa didn't use him properly, and made strange selections, but there are a host of different explanations for the treatment other than the one Yossi percieves, or everyone is all too willing to believe on here, i.e. the explanation that casts Benitez in the worst light possible.

I also don't think Benayoun would have been "so much more" had he been used perfectly. He's a good but not great player.
[/quote]

Your point about Rafa not slagging off his player is disingenuous, firstly because the dynamic is different, and secondly because it's not in his interest. He may not have slagged players off, but he had plenty to say about his then current bosses when he was in the job, making a lot of people think "Why don't you shut the fuck up and get on with your job?" Now if he'd kept his mouth shut, everybody was completely in the dark as to the kinds of conditions he was working under, and there was widespread bemusement as to why he left - and then he came out and made a statement, it would be understandable because you could understand how he felt he needed to justify his actions to the fans who weren't aware of the whole story.

As it is, it wasn't the case - Rafa did his bitching very publicly, at the same time as he was saying all he was thinking about was the next game.

Yossi on the other hand has kept schtum, and though his agent may have mouthed off a bit (as is their wont) he left under circumstances that left many people (myself included) thinking "What's that about? He won't get games at Chelsea, he may as well stay here." Indeed there may have even been some bitterness amongst some that he went to a rival club, and so it is fairly easy to understand why he may have felt his need to tell his side of the story.

As for Yossi saying positive things about Rafa, if we are to take his account at face value then it seems he was assured of his role in the team, only for that to be reneged on. If you've had talks to clear the air and your manager has promised you certain things, of course you're going to be much happier about the situation and you would speak positively about them.

As for there being a host of different reasons for the treatment other than the one Yossi perceives - this may be true, but all of these reasons come under the overall banner of Rafa being shit at man management. That's not trying to cast him in the worst light possible, it's a plain statement of fact that anyone with half a brain could have told you about 4 years ago. Rafa does things *his* way, which I'm sure has led to success in some areas, but when it comes to effective man management he really hasn't got a fucking clue - and though *his* way might actually benefit some players and drive them on it is patently obvious that it also alienates a lot of players and causes friction. People might point to his successes, but the fact that you have to identify individual successes just shows how ineffective his man management is - a good man manager would adapt their style to suit each type of player and recognise what they needed to get the best out of them.

Rafa did not, probably could not, do that.

Somebody else who had that talent probably could have got so much more out of Yossi. Like you say, he's a good player. Quite often he became invisible for us because he was played out of position and had all the confidence knocked out of him
 
Two words Yossi

Boo Hoo


We should bring back boot room style management. That will separate the Men from the Boys.....and Lucas.
 
So, if it's such a disingenuous comparison, lets take the exact same situation. When Rafa referenced Purslow and the others, after leaving the job, fairly obliquely, his account was simply taken on face value on here? Mmm-hmm.

It doesn't matter if "all those reasons involve Rafa being shit at man management" though I don't believe that is the only available interpretation. What matters, and what I've been responding to this whole time, is whether what he did was "classy".

Benayoun firstly believes that his not being used more, being used intermittently etc was in error. I'd agree, though it's doubtful that there weren't legitimate reasons at times, because Benayoun isn't a consistent performer. He goes on to attribute this to a malicious, willful attempt to "break him". That's a pretty strong allegation, combined with timing that reeks of bitterness. I VERY much doubt that Benayoun was given assurances of game time by Rafa. Does that sound like Rafa to you?

I'm not so sure why that bitterness is there. Benayoun will not play any more frequently for Chelsea, he's a useful squaddie at this level, or he could move down and be an automatic selection, as he was before. He's decided he likes his new payrate and being at higher level clubs. Rafa really destroyed Benayoun's career, didn't he?
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40931.msg1134074#msg1134074 date=1278836186]
Are you trying to insinuate he's only in it for the money?

I dunno how Wiz and Jimmy will look on that
[/quote]

Haha.

Maybe he thinks he will become a regular at this level. He won't though. He wasn't in his favored position because Gerrard was there, who is miles better.

Now he won't be in his favored position because Lampard is there, who is miles better.

So he'll play on the wings. He'll play some good games, then some not so great ones. He won't play any more than he did for us, in fact he might well play less. It isn't as if Benayoun was starved for games for Liverpool.

For the record, I didn't want Benayoun to go, certainly not essentially for Joe Cole.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=40931.msg1134073#msg1134073 date=1278836080]
So, if it's such a disingenuous comparison, lets take the exact same situation. When Rafa referenced Purslow and the others, after leaving the job, fairly obliquely, his account was simply taken on face value on here? Mmm-hmm.

It doesn't matter if "all those reasons involve Rafa being shit at man management" though I don't believe that is the only available interpretation. What matters, and what I've been responding to this whole time, is whether what he did was "classy".

Benayoun firstly believes that his not being used more, being used intermittently etc was in error. I'd agree, though it's doubtful that there weren't legitimate reasons at times, because Benayoun isn't a consistent performer. He goes on to attribute this to a malicious, willful attempt to "break him". That's a pretty strong allegation, combined with timing that reeks of bitterness. I VERY much doubt that Benayoun was given assurances of game time by Rafa. Does that sound like Rafa to you?

I'm not so sure why that bitterness is there. Benayoun will not play any more frequently for Chelsea, he's a useful squaddie at this level, or he could move down and be an automatic selection, as he was before. He's decided he likes his new payrate and being at higher level clubs. Rafa really destroyed Benayoun's career, didn't he?
[/quote]

Okay so your first point is fair enough, people didn't take Rafa's word at face value, but then I suppose more people felt he had his own agenda and had already been stirring the pot long beforehand. This is, to my knowledge, the first Yossi's come out and said anything. Rafa was fighting media battles against anyone and everyone for ages. Was his word taken at face value? No, well by some it was, but many it wasn't. Is this fair? It depends - do you think Rafa's word could be trusted implicitly, or do you think he'd bend the truth a bit to suit his own agenda.

If some of his press conferences about "suchandsuch is a good player" or "we played well, controlled the game, but were unlucky . . ." are anything to go by then probably not!

*tongueincheeksmilieagain*

Was it classy? I refer you to my earlier statement about football not operating on the same rules as normal life. In the spectrum of footballers behaviour, this almost does class as being 'classy'. Sad but true, there's very few genuinely likeable people in the game, and most would have probably written a book or some shit about it by now. Is it actually classy behaviour? No, probably not, but relative to his peers Yossi carried himself with a modicum of dignity and didn't rock the boat. That deserves some recognition, even if it is a very small amount.

Was Rafa trying to 'break him'. It does sound a bit paranoid, and I'm sure it's a very emotive subject for any player that feels aggrieved. However, if we analyse it from an objective point of view - and I've made this point before - if you were to make a concerted effort to try and destroy somebodies confidence, dropping them right after they've just played really well and scored a goal would probably be the right way to go about it. I don't think Rafa was actually trying to do that, I think he just had such a rigidly fixed idea in his head about what he wanted to do that he was completely oblivious to the idea of letting a play find some form or how their treatment would affect their performance

Malicious? No. Robotic? Yes.
 
I don't really have a problem with Yossi making these comments.

He does sound like a bit of a soft lad though.
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40931.msg1134084#msg1134084 date=1278837559]
Was Rafa trying to 'break him'. It does sound a bit paranoid, and I'm sure it's a very emotive subject for any player that feels aggrieved. However, if we analyse it from an objective point of view - and I've made this point before - if you were to make a concerted effort to try and destroy somebodies confidence, dropping them right after they've just played really well and scored a goal would probably be the right way to go about it. I don't think Rafa was actually trying to do that, I think he just had such a rigidly fixed idea in his head about what he wanted to do that he was completely oblivious to the idea of letting a play find some form or how their treatment would affect their performance

Malicious? No. Robotic? Yes.


[/quote]

Frankly, although the term "breaking a player" is pretty loaded, I do think that is essentially what Rafa attempted to do with certain players. He had a system and a methodology that was integral to his managing style and players were required to buy into it, regardless of how logical or illogical it seemed to them (or supporters). As the manager, Rafa had the right to enforce his will as he pleased. While we can discuss whether this manner is right or wrong, the fact remains that had we achieved more success under Rafa (not to downplay the successes we did have) I think most would have accepted it. Most great managers in world football have had to win a battle of wills with one or more players at some point. It's unfortunate that Rafa's methodology manifestly did not bring out the best in some of our players who perhaps would have performed better under a different approach.
 
[quote author=Redshrek link=topic=40931.msg1134015#msg1134015 date=1278803433]
Wasn't the main reason Riera was hounded out was he planted one on young Pacheco.
[/quote]

This is what I thought, and it was in quite a few papers at the time.
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40931.msg1134084#msg1134084 date=1278837559]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=40931.msg1134073#msg1134073 date=1278836080]
So, if it's such a disingenuous comparison, lets take the exact same situation. When Rafa referenced Purslow and the others, after leaving the job, fairly obliquely, his account was simply taken on face value on here? Mmm-hmm.

It doesn't matter if "all those reasons involve Rafa being shit at man management" though I don't believe that is the only available interpretation. What matters, and what I've been responding to this whole time, is whether what he did was "classy".

Benayoun firstly believes that his not being used more, being used intermittently etc was in error. I'd agree, though it's doubtful that there weren't legitimate reasons at times, because Benayoun isn't a consistent performer. He goes on to attribute this to a malicious, willful attempt to "break him". That's a pretty strong allegation, combined with timing that reeks of bitterness. I VERY much doubt that Benayoun was given assurances of game time by Rafa. Does that sound like Rafa to you?

I'm not so sure why that bitterness is there. Benayoun will not play any more frequently for Chelsea, he's a useful squaddie at this level, or he could move down and be an automatic selection, as he was before. He's decided he likes his new payrate and being at higher level clubs. Rafa really destroyed Benayoun's career, didn't he?
[/quote]

Okay so your first point is fair enough, people didn't take Rafa's word at face value, but then I suppose more people felt he had his own agenda and had already been stirring the pot long beforehand. This is, to my knowledge, the first Yossi's come out and said anything. Rafa was fighting media battles against anyone and everyone for ages. Was his word taken at face value? No, well by some it was, but many it wasn't. Is this fair? It depends - do you think Rafa's word could be trusted implicitly, or do you think he'd bend the truth a bit to suit his own agenda.

If some of his press conferences about "suchandsuch is a good player" or "we played well, controlled the game, but were unlucky . . ." are anything to go by then probably not!

*tongueincheeksmilieagain*

Was it classy? I refer you to my earlier statement about football not operating on the same rules as normal life. In the spectrum of footballers behaviour, this almost does class as being 'classy'. Sad but true, there's very few genuinely likeable people in the game, and most would have probably written a book or some shit about it by now. Is it actually classy behaviour? No, probably not, but relative to his peers Yossi carried himself with a modicum of dignity and didn't rock the boat. That deserves some recognition, even if it is a very small amount.

Was Rafa trying to 'break him'. It does sound a bit paranoid, and I'm sure it's a very emotive subject for any player that feels aggrieved. However, if we analyse it from an objective point of view - and I've made this point before - if you were to make a concerted effort to try and destroy somebodies confidence, dropping them right after they've just played really well and scored a goal would probably be the right way to go about it. I don't think Rafa was actually trying to do that, I think he just had such a rigidly fixed idea in his head about what he wanted to do that he was completely oblivious to the idea of letting a play find some form or how their treatment would affect their performance

Malicious? No. Robotic? Yes.


[/quote]

Good post.
 
Obviously Yossi's quite thin skinned and needs to feel wanted judging by his comments. I find it hard to believe that he thought he might get constant encouragement from a very authoritarian coach who would consider his position first before the team's.

Yossi's a good squad player and scored some great goals for us. I can't see that he was worth a starting birth as frequently as he wanted though.

I'm at a loss as to why he felt the need to make personal remarks, we all know he's moved to earn more money; he didn't need to find excuses after signing a couple of contracts for the very coach he now says he dislikes. Curious. Anyhow good luck to him at Chelsea, better he moves on if he felt he was unable to give the new coach a chance to involve him more.
 
If 20% of what he said is true I understand why he left.

No one whats to feel they're being made a dick of at work, no matter if your earning hundreds of pounds a week or thousands.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=40931.msg1134122#msg1134122 date=1278849601]
Yet Rafa has left.
[/quote]

Indeed. I think Yossi may be trying to justify his move rather than explaining it.
 
Oh, and I'm not saying the way Yossi was treated is acceptable, I just struggle to accept it as a valid reason why he's left considering it's not longer a factor.

And yes, he could have waited to see what happened, regardless of what he says. Rafa going was always a possibility which he must have known.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40931.msg1134117#msg1134117 date=1278848979]
I'm at a loss as to why he felt the need to make personal remarks, we all know he's moved to earn more money; he didn't need to find excuses after signing a couple of contracts for the very coach he now says he dislikes.
[/quote]

Can you show me how exactly you've convinced yourself that 'we all know' he's moved for money? Perhaps he's moved because a better team wanted him, one that will offer him a chance to win a league or CL medal? Going by your logic, as it seems you're saying he's making this stuff up, can we assume that Keane, Crouch, Riera and Xabi also left/wanted to leave for the same reasons as similar issues between player/coach have risen there (as Yossi says his issues arose last year - i.e. after he signed the contract)?

I guess you'd have rather he rattled our team even more last year, like Riera did, when it was obvious something was up? He was either on the bench or on the left (where he's horrific) every game, when the year before he had played an extremely important part in the push to 2nd place?

Yossi has never spoken about a manager like this - the only thing I can think of that is similar is his dislike for an ex-Israeli manager (Shlomo Scharf) who constantly rips into him every time he plays for Israel.

As this is not the first time Rafa has been accused of playing these games, I somehow doubt he's lying.
 
I think it's fair enough that Yossi should share the issues he had, if they are as he said, it's a matter of some concern to be honest, regardless of who the player is,some people here seem to be strangely uninterested.

As someone said earlier, Benitez is no shrinking violet when it comes to airing his issues in the media.

Seemingly the deal had been sorted for a while.

regards
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=40931.msg1134132#msg1134132 date=1278850361]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40931.msg1134117#msg1134117 date=1278848979]
I'm at a loss as to why he felt the need to make personal remarks, we all know he's moved to earn more money; he didn't need to find excuses after signing a couple of contracts for the very coach he now says he dislikes.
[/quote]

Can you show me how exactly you've convinced yourself that 'we all know' he's moved for money? Perhaps he's moved because a better team wanted him, one that will offer him a chance to win a league or CL medal? Going by your logic, as it seems you're saying he's making this stuff up, can we assume that Keane, Crouch, Riera and Xabi also left/wanted to leave for the same reasons as similar issues between player/coach have risen there (as Yossi says his issues arose last year - i.e. after he signed the contract)?

I guess you'd have rather he rattled our team even more last year, like Riera did, when it was obvious something was up? He was either on the bench or on the left (where he's horrific) every game, when the year before he had played an extremely important part in the push to 2nd place?

Yossi has never spoken about a manager like this - the only thing I can think of that is similar is his dislike for an ex-Israeli manager (Shlomo Scharf) who constantly rips into him every time he plays for Israel.

As this is not the first time Rafa has been accused of playing these games, I somehow doubt he's lying.
[/quote]

You could very well be correct LTW. I'm not sure I said he was making stuff up just I thought he was doing a very human thing in justifying his decision rather than accepting his coaches decision making.

I said he was likely better paid as Chelsea do pay higher wages than Liverpool and that is a good motivation for changing jobs.

My point was that it used to be that an unhappy player put in a transfer request and instructed his agent to find him another club; then he would move on and continue his career. No recriminations.

If as you say his ex-international coach was critical and we add that to that a club coach who wasn't convinced that he was worthy of regular starts perhaps Yossi's opinion of himself is at odds with professional coaches?

He could have met with the new Manager perhaps before moving, especially if money wasn't a factor, no?
 
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