Ighalo, Kante, Mahrez and Vardy were all bargains. Buying players for over £15m hasn't improved us at all. So who do you think is out there good be a gem?
Bargains
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Most of these players would not have the bottle to play for a big club. They are the big fish in a small pond kind of players and will not survive in Liverpool. I'm not saying all of them but we have seen many, Downing, Aquilani and Allen just to name a few.
That is why we should look to buy players like Sanchez and Sturridge, who are very good fish in a big pond players. Or else we need to expand our scouting scope, to include players with strong mentality and good attitude in our search criteria, especially in our big money signings.
We obviously have not - Firmino, Benteke and Markovic seem weak as fuck mentally.
That is why we should look to buy players like Sanchez and Sturridge, who are very good fish in a big pond players. Or else we need to expand our scouting scope, to include players with strong mentality and good attitude in our search criteria, especially in our big money signings.
We obviously have not - Firmino, Benteke and Markovic seem weak as fuck mentally.
Sturridge was a bargain at £12m. You pointed to Sanchez who cost £32m brought by a manager who's renowned for looking for bargains
And exactly just how do you know that ? That's a pretty wild assumption.
Naming previous flops doesn't prove anything, across the board there are probably just as many successes (depending on your definition) as flops moving up from smaller clubs (as pretty much all do unless homegrown).
And then you name players that (if fit) are £30-50m players ? And go on to slate 3 players that have less than a season of games between them at LFC ! I don't see you have made any valid point at all in your post.
The examples may be questionable but it's a pretty good point I think.
Not at all because what he is basically saying is don't buy players from smaller clubs, only proven players at big clubs that will cost a fortune. Listing players that flopped doesn't change his basic premise.
Now now, be fair. That's not really a true reflection what he said. Anyways, I wasreferring more to this part:
Which is a valid point. The mentality of the players we sign is open to question.
I don't believe that at all.
While i think mentality is important, the big club / small club argument is nonsense. We continually ignore reality when it comes to transfers and make up pseudo psychological bullshit so reality doesnt need to be confronted.
Did Downing and Aquilani suddenly return to their previous form when they left the big club ? Nope. Which means the size of the club didnt matter.
Will Joe Allen ? God knows.
The problem for us is that our fans are stupid and demand big names and or proven players because thats what a big club goes out and gets. That puts pressure on the ownership to do so, and that means that becomes part of the remit of the transfer committee / manager.
So when we bought Andy Carroll - did we pay 35m because he was worth it ? Nope. He was hyped, available and the owners knew if they didnt spend that money immediately theyd be accused of using the money to pay back loans , interest etc.
When it comes to buying the players with name recognition we're almost always going to be behind United, Chelsea, Arsenal and a handful of european teams. So we get the players they dont have any interest in usually.
Thats why we end up with with the Lallanas, Lovrens etc.
Fans demand big spending, we go out and do it.
All I can hope is that Klopp doesnt give a shite about the fans expectations and just goes about signing players he thinks will be good for us. Like this Serbian kid, thats a solid start for me - in terms of approach anyway
Towering central defender Jannik Vestergaard could be a potential 'bargain'.
Club: Werder Bremen
Age: 23
Position: CD
Height: 199 cm
Est. fee. £10M (perhaps not quite in the 'bargain' bracket there but I believe when it comes to value for money he could be worth every penny).
PROS
His physical stature, strong and tall, makes him an odds on favorite to win most aerial - and physical - duels (and he does)
Very decent technique on the ball
Fairly pacy
No-nonsense
Danger at set pieces
Calm on the ball
CONS
Erratic at times
Lacking concentration
Positioning
Klopp will most certainly know about him as he's been playing in the Bundesliga since he was around 18, first at Hoffenheim before moving to Werder. I believe that he could be a perfect fit for our back line under Klopp's guidance - offering both quality defending as well as skill going forward - or when playing that angled/deep forward pass we sometime lack from the back to add that extra ingredient.
And if nothing else, he does a mean 'warm-up':
Club: Werder Bremen
Age: 23
Position: CD
Height: 199 cm
Est. fee. £10M (perhaps not quite in the 'bargain' bracket there but I believe when it comes to value for money he could be worth every penny).
PROS
His physical stature, strong and tall, makes him an odds on favorite to win most aerial - and physical - duels (and he does)
Very decent technique on the ball
Fairly pacy
No-nonsense
Danger at set pieces
Calm on the ball
CONS
Erratic at times
Lacking concentration
Positioning
Klopp will most certainly know about him as he's been playing in the Bundesliga since he was around 18, first at Hoffenheim before moving to Werder. I believe that he could be a perfect fit for our back line under Klopp's guidance - offering both quality defending as well as skill going forward - or when playing that angled/deep forward pass we sometime lack from the back to add that extra ingredient.
And if nothing else, he does a mean 'warm-up':
This is the fascinating part of transfer recruitment and a great discussion. I'm not sure it's all about name recognition, but there is always going to be that base human reaction to a 'big' signing, which usually means a name you recognise and/ or a large fee.
You want that excitement as a fan. It's all part of what makes football great; the emotion. I'm afraid making sensible, dispassionate objective decisions does rather suck a lot of the fun out of it.
Best example; Suarez. I didn't know much about him, but I'd seen him play maybe once. He looked great and his record was amazing too, and you could tell from his debut he was going to be phenomenal. But he still cost - relatively - a lot of money at 24m or whatever. Because there simply aren't that many genuinely great players around you can 'discover' ahead of all the other vast scouting networks, and pick up on the cheap.
Another more classic 'Moneyball' signing - damaged goods/ slight risk etc was Balotelli. Wow! He's famous! And I know some of our more starry-eyed daytripper clown fans were excited by him. I wasn't. I fucking despised him for years and knew he was going to be a total fucking disaster, because he's an overrated, solipsistic halfwit. Again, that type of signing is fraught with risk, and for every Cantona, there's 10 Balotelli's.
But you mention Lallana. He wasn't signed as a name, or because we had to spend 'big money'. Not one fan on Earth was excited by him, or indeed thought that spending 25m on the effete cunt was any kind of positive. He was signed because Rodgers really wanted him, and thought he was worth the money.
The approach you laud, spending small amounts on little know players like Grujic, isn't any kind of winning formula. Those signings are as risky - and more likely to fail- than more expensive players, because more expensive players are usually better. How many Kvarme's and Piechnik's did we have to endure before we signed Hyypia?
All successful, consistent top clubs have to spend lots of money. Lots. What you need is that blend of high-ticket quality and also those more value for money 'bargains'
Players like Ozil, Silva, Aguero, Toure, Ferdinand, Suarez, Rooney, RVN, Hazard, Sanchez, Suarez, Benzema, Griezmann, Drogba, Costa etc were all 20-30m. You have to invest big sometimes, and then hope some of the smaller, less well known, or cheaper signings can be like Azpilicueta, Sturridge, Clyne, Ramsey, Delle Ali, Petit, Vieira, Lampard or whoever
It's always a blend, it always costs lots of money, and it always needs smart scouting and the ability to attract the right players, and pay them commensurately.
I've heard loads of people quacking on about Dortmund, and how he can replicate that in the Premiership. He can't. And Dortmund isn't sustainable anyway, as Bayern or whoever, just buy all their best players. It's even less likely to work in this country.
And now fucking Leicester are the new favourite 'model club' after Southampton fell out of favour (ie started losing). Really? Wow, yeah, they bought Mahrez and Vardy for peanuts, and look where they are! Why can't we sign players like that for so little money?!
Yeah, they had both of those players last season and were nearly relegated. Because you need more than that, and when they leave, and someone signs Kante for 20m more than he cost them (hopefully us, because he's fucking brilliant) they will get relegated.
We need to spend lots of money on lots of players, and it will be a mixture of huge transfer fees and 'bargains'. And if we sign the right ones, they will ALL be bargains.
But we rarely, if ever, do. But we can't and won't ever be Champions without another huge investment in players. Because money is the most important factor. We won't succeed by buying 10 Grujic's, and clapping ourselves on the back about how clever and prudent and objective we are, and ignoring fan expectations - whatever they are.
We need plenty of 20m plus footballers in our first team. Just not the shit ones we usually buy
Welcome back @Kay Age El
I don't disgaree but we enter the market every year out to spend everything we have on whatever is available, because it shows our fans ambition.
Wenger gets blasted by his own fans for being more patient, but because of that when the likes of Cazorla and Ozil unexpextedly become available they are sitting there ready to pick them up.
The result being they're title contenders and we're also rans.
Re Lallana , there was a strong current of support for the signing because he was coming off a career year - even though it clearly was your average manager signing.
And I've said it a number of times - Balotelli was nothing to so with moneyball. There was no value there at all , we bought into an illusion.
Wenger gets blasted by his own fans for being more patient, but because of that when the likes of Cazorla and Ozil unexpextedly become available they are sitting there ready to pick them up.
The result being they're title contenders and we're also rans.
Re Lallana , there was a strong current of support for the signing because he was coming off a career year - even though it clearly was your average manager signing.
And I've said it a number of times - Balotelli was nothing to so with moneyball. There was no value there at all , we bought into an illusion.
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Balotelli fitted the criteria. So did Cantona. It's all an illusion in that there's no magic formula for signing players. They're either good signings, or they aren't. And you need shitloads of money, whatever your purported 'player recruitment strategy' is
And as for Lallana, really? REALLY? I don't recall one discussion on or offline with Liverpool fans who were happy, excited or indeed especially supportive of that signing, especially at that price. Yeah, you could point out the odd comment, but nobody who wasn't an idiot wanted us to spend 25m on him. I'd have been OK with maybe 10m less, as a squad player, but for 25m you want a top quality first team regular, which he wasn't, isn't, and never will be.
As for Wenger, he's rightly blasted for lots of valid reasons: limited investment in his midfield, his total lack of defensive midfielder, too much loyalty in average players, or players who are never fit, and never buying a top goalkeeper.
Most of which he seems to have rectified only this season, hence the title challenge
Ah well, yeah. But from your classic 'problem player, lower transfer value than previously quoted, needs right motivation, played for lots of big clubs, won plenty of trophies, international, available in quick sale due to personality/ motivational issues ' then he ticked every box.
He's just retarded overrated, lazy cunt, though. That should have been the overriding factor
I think we're sort of agreeing in general.
But my point is that quite often, you do get what you paid for. And we need to pay more sometimes
He's just retarded overrated, lazy cunt, though. That should have been the overriding factor
I think we're sort of agreeing in general.
But my point is that quite often, you do get what you paid for. And we need to pay more sometimes
Nor has buying players over £20 million or or £30 million for that matter. £32 million for Benteke. Insanity.
Sometimes we do , but to go back to the point about bigger money players being less risky / likely to fail - we're hardly a ringing endorsement for that argument.
Andy Carroll, Robbie Keane, Sakho , Lovren, Downing, Lallana etc.
Of our top 15 most expensive signings about 3 would be classed as successes.
Which probably means we have to spend 75m to buy one worthy 20m player.
Give me four 5m pound youngsters anyday over that
All of them looked impressive when they were counterattacking with pace and with our defense backtracking. Our players looked extremely good playing the same tactics against Chelsea, City, and Southampton. I dont think Ighalo, Mahrez, and Vardy will look that good against a packed defense.
Lallana is a typical moneyball signing and so is a few other of our players. Lallana is fantastic making runs into the box from central midfield. One of the best in the PL doing that. The problem is that he is playing out wide for us so he can't use what he great at. We have signed players that is fantastic doing one thing but isn't complete enough and played them out of position. The opposition scout us and see what the weakness is and use that against our players. Happen in game after game.
We must sign more complete players and we must play them in their best position. If we can't fit Lallana into a central midfield attacking position so he can make the runs into the box then we should sell him because he isn't good enough in any other position. You can say that about a few of our other players.
If we can't play them in their best position, sell them. They aren't good enough in any other postion. We have acted like Real Madrid and signed players we don't need and played them out of position.
We must sign more complete players and we must play them in their best position. If we can't fit Lallana into a central midfield attacking position so he can make the runs into the box then we should sell him because he isn't good enough in any other position. You can say that about a few of our other players.
If we can't play them in their best position, sell them. They aren't good enough in any other postion. We have acted like Real Madrid and signed players we don't need and played them out of position.
This bargain, bargaining, transfers, strategy shite makes your head hurt doesn't it?
The cynic in me says it's a completely random business. The things that count in my opinion are the expertise of your coach, the working environment and the character and intelligence of your recruits.
Trying to recruit special or hot streak players is a lottery as far as I'm concerned and bargains unattainable.
I fully expect the club to recruit from Germany, players that Klopp knows, and more importantly, can communicate with as his words to date seem to be falling on deaf ears.
The cynic in me says it's a completely random business. The things that count in my opinion are the expertise of your coach, the working environment and the character and intelligence of your recruits.
Trying to recruit special or hot streak players is a lottery as far as I'm concerned and bargains unattainable.
I fully expect the club to recruit from Germany, players that Klopp knows, and more importantly, can communicate with as his words to date seem to be falling on deaf ears.
I do hope that Klopp will make game intelligence and winning mentality his number one priority when he sign players. If you look at the best clubs in the world then you won't see a single player that don't have at least very good game intelligence and winning mentality.
You don't need to have fantastic skills if you have the game intelligence to use what you are good at and don't try to play a game that don't suit you. If you don't have enough game intelligence then it won't matter much if have excellent skills because you won't be able to use your strenghts.
Ibe is one example of that. Many excellent skills but shit game intelligence. Kuyt is an example of a player with very limited skills but his fantastic game intelligence compensates that.
You don't need to have fantastic skills if you have the game intelligence to use what you are good at and don't try to play a game that don't suit you. If you don't have enough game intelligence then it won't matter much if have excellent skills because you won't be able to use your strenghts.
Ibe is one example of that. Many excellent skills but shit game intelligence. Kuyt is an example of a player with very limited skills but his fantastic game intelligence compensates that.
I think people just label every signing since FSG took over as moneyball.
Even though about zero of them are actually good examples of moneyball in action. (Moneyball for the past few years has been Juve)
No, that's just OUR big money signings. Nobody else on fucking planet Earth would have paid 35 for Carroll, 25m for Lallana, 20m for Downing, 20m for Lovren or 20m for Markovic.
We can't use those players as a data set. They're examples of how we, specifically, at Liverpool, have wasted more money on poor signings than any other club in the country over the last 10 years.
It's not a reason to say 'let's never pay 20m plus' for a player again. It's a reason to say, 'let's never let the mongs who were involved in those signings ever buy a player again'
We don't need bargains, we're a rich club. We just need value.
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