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Americans appreciation thread.

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=17199.msg398651#msg398651 date=1193776461]
I like America for ... HOLLYWOOD. It's comforting to know that if we're ever invaded by aliens with vastly superior technology and armoury , or a huge asteroid is coming our way, America will single handedly save our skins !!!!



Amer-i-ca ! Fuck, yeah !!


[/quote]

What Sunny, you don't want to "share" our Independence day?

You'd think the Alien ship would have a firewall or something.
 
I'm so not appreciated in my time Robin, the amount of effort i put into these things is fucking ridiculous.
You will all appreciate me when Piedro Bans me.
 
[quote author=viingx link=topic=17199.msg398688#msg398688 date=1193777864]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=17199.msg398651#msg398651 date=1193776461]
I like America for ... HOLLYWOOD. It's comforting to know that if we're ever invaded by aliens with vastly superior technology and armoury , or a huge asteroid is coming our way, America will single handedly save our skins !!!!



Amer-i-ca ! Fuck, yeah !!


[/quote]


What Sunny, you don't want to "share" our Independence day?

You'd think the Alien ship would have a firewall or something.
[/quote]

Haha. If only they'd kept up their Norton subscription.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=17199.msg398690#msg398690 date=1193777950]
[quote author=viingx link=topic=17199.msg398688#msg398688 date=1193777864]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=17199.msg398651#msg398651 date=1193776461]
I like America for ... HOLLYWOOD. It's comforting to know that if we're ever invaded by aliens with vastly superior technology and armoury , or a huge asteroid is coming our way, America will single handedly save our skins !!!!



Amer-i-ca ! Fuck, yeah !!


[/quote]


What Sunny, you don't want to "share" our Independence day?

You'd think the Alien ship would have a firewall or something.
[/quote]

Haha. If only they'd kept up their Norton subscription.
[/quote]

KEPT IT UP?!!!?

I can't get rid of the shit!
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=17199.msg398686#msg398686 date=1193777810]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=17199.msg398679#msg398679 date=1193777281]
It's lucky you keep that list handy, Oncey.
[/quote]

'...........
...........
1347.List of my favourite Americans.
1348.List of ingredients that dont go with Mushrooms.
1349.List of different types of Aviation fuel.
1350.List of destinations most likely to win a war in Risk
...........
...........'
[/quote]

That list is endless. In fact it contains everything. Down with the mushrooms.

I like a America. In fact I liked it so much, I bought the country!!

Lived there for 2 years in the 80's near Philly and it was great. Absolutely top notch. Nothing like the way it portrays itself on the tv. I'd go back and live there again in a heartbeat.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=17199.msg398661#msg398661 date=1193776731]
It's encouraging to know that we have the US as constant allies though. We know they will stand shoulder to shoulder with us, as we do them, should any of our sovereign territories get invaded such as the Falklands....oh.


[/quote]

You speak far truer than you know. At the end of the Falklands War the British forces had an average of six rounds of ammo per man left. If it hadn't been for the shipment of Stinger anti-aircraft missiles early on in the war, which Cap Weinberger (US Defense Secretary at the time) ordered sent to us despite the fact that his decision left the US military short of them for a while and posed a threat to America's diplomatic relations with a number of S.American countries, those vital last few rounds would have been used up trying to shoot down the Argie air force in the early days of the war and our offensive would probably have ground to a halt some time before we'd managed to force the Argies to surrender. It wasn't for nothing that Mr.Weinberger received an honorary knighthood from the Queen after the war.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398653#msg398653 date=1193776523]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=17199.msg398636#msg398636 date=1193776001]
are you seriously saying without Yankee intervention, the battle on Europe would have been won by VE Day?  Are you seriously saying that?  My lord ... Yes the English had 'repelled' the Battle of Britain, or HItler had perhaps made his biggest mistake and opened a second front giving the chance for the Brits to breathe after non-stop assaults on her cities.

And considering Rommel had the 'Allied forces' just west of Tobruk in Jan 1943, I don't exactly see how the war had already shifted (Granted, this was due to troop reinforcements being sent to Burma).  Rommel was basically at El Alamein in May 1943 ... only to be pushed back ... but don't let that get in you rway.

Put your anti-American hatred to the side - were it not for their involvement in the war, things would not have ended as they did.
[/quote]

What anti American hatred??

Britain had withstood all of Germany might since Sept 3rd 1939 the American became involved in the was on Dec 8th 1941 there first battle was mid 1942.

Monty had taken Tobruk in 1941 Britain had entered Greece in 1941 all this was without America.


The war in Europe would have ended the same, all the commonwealth soldiers fighting against Japan would have been in Europe.

Again get your facts right.


Fact we wouldn't have 'all been speaking German' now

We WOULDN'T be having Frankfurters with our chips.



[/quote]

Phooey.  We were out on our feet.  As Wizzy rightly points out, Rommel had rolled us back from those gains you mention in N.Africa.  The war in the Far East was still a long way from ending and there is no way those Commonwealth troops would have been free to join the European theatre.

So get YOUR facts right, matey.  The US did not win the war on its own, but neither could we have done it without them.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=17199.msg398796#msg398796 date=1193782665]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=17199.msg398661#msg398661 date=1193776731]
It's encouraging to know that we have the US as constant allies though. We know they will stand shoulder to shoulder with us, as we do them, should any of our sovereign territories get invaded such as the Falklands....oh.


[/quote]

You speak far truer than you know. At the end of the Falklands War the British forces had an average of six rounds of ammo per man left. If it hadn't been for the shipment of Stinger anti-aircraft missiles early on in the war, which Cap Weinberger (US Defense Secretary at the time) ordered sent to us despite the fact that his decision left the US military short of them for a while and posed a threat to America's diplomatic relations with a number of S.American countries, those vital last few rounds would have been used up trying to shoot down the Argie air force in the early days of the war and our offensive would probably have ground to a halt some time before we'd managed to force the Argies to surrender. It wasn't for nothing that Mr.Weinberger received an honorary knighthood from the Queen after the war.
[/quote]

Do you mean Sidewinder missiles?

Anyway, found this on Wiki - pretty much sums it up well. In some ways they assisted us, in others they didn't.

At first glance, it appeared that the U.S. had military treaty obligations to both parties in the war, bound to the UK as a member of North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and to Argentina by the Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance (the "Rio Pact&quot😉. However, the North Atlantic Treaty only obliges the signatories to support if the attack occurs in Europe or North America north of Tropic of Cancer, and the Rio Pact only obliges the U.S. to intervene if one of the adherents to the treaty is attacked—the UK never attacked Argentina, only Argentine forces on British territory. In March, Secretary of State Alexander Haig directed the United States Ambassador to Argentina to warn the Argentine government away from any invasion. President Reagan requested assurances from Galtieri against an invasion and offered the services of his Vice President, George H.W. Bush, as mediator, but was refused.


Jeane KirkpatrickIn fact, the Reagan Administration was sharply divided on the issue. Meeting on April 5, Haig and Assistant Secretary of State for Political Affairs Lawrence Eagleburger favoured backing Britain, concerned that equivocation would undermine the NATO alliance. Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs Thomas Enders, however, feared that supporting Britain would undermine U.S. anti-communist efforts in Latin America. He received the firm backing of U.N. Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick, Haig's nominal subordinate and political rival. Kirkpatrick was guest of honour at a dinner held by the Argentine ambassador to the United States, on the day that the Argentine armed forces landed on the islands.

The White House continued its neutrality; Reagan famously declared at the time that he could not understand why two allies were arguing over "that little ice-cold bunch of land down there". But he assented to Haig and Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger's position. Haig briefly (April 8–April 30) headed a "shuttle diplomacy" mission between London and Buenos Aires. According to a recent BBC documentary titled "The Falklands War and the White House"[15], Caspar Weinberger's Department of Defense began a number of non-public actions to support and supply the British military while Haig's shuttle diplomacy was still ongoing. Haig's message to the Argentines was that the British would indeed fight, and that the U.S. would support Britain, but at the time he was not aware that the U.S. was providing support already.

At the end of the month Reagan blamed Argentina for the failure of the mediation, declared U.S. support for Britain, and announced the imposition of economic sanctions against Argentina.

In a notorious episode in June, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Jeane Kirkpatrick cast a second veto of a Security Council resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire, then announced minutes later that she had received instructions to abstain. The situation was blamed on a delay in communications, but perceived by many as part of an ongoing power struggle between Haig and Kirkpatrick.

Galtieri, and a fair proportion of his government did not think that the UK would react. Margaret Thatcher declared that the democratic rights of the Falkland Islanders had been assaulted, and would not surrender the islands to the Argentinian "jackboot." This stance was aided, at least domestically, by the mostly supportive British press.

The Argentine dictatorship felt that the United States would, even in a worst-case scenario, remain completely neutral in the conflict (based upon the support that Argentina had given to the Reagan administration in Central America, training Contras). This assumption demonstrated a clear blindness to the reality of the US-UK special relationship.

To some extent, the Argentine military dictatorship was misled by its own opinion of democracies as being weak, inefficient talking-shops, afraid of taking risks. Indeed, in Britain there was much debate about the rights and wrongs of war. However, regardless of their own policies and opinions, opposition parties firmly backed the government during the crisis to present a single united front.

A U.S. fear of the perceived threat of the Soviet Union and the spread of communism, along with the certainty that Britain could handle the matter on its own, may have influenced the U.S. to take a position of non-interference. During the Cold War, with the performance of forces being watched closely by the Soviet Union, it was considered preferable for the UK to handle without assistance a conflict within its capabilities.[citation needed]


American non-interference was vital to the American-British relationship. Ascension Island, a British possession, was vital in the long term supply of the Task Force South; however, the airbase stationed on it was run and operated by the U.S. The American commander of the base was ordered to assist the British in any way, and for a brief period Ascension Air Field was one of the busiest airports in the world. The most expedient NATO contributions were satellite photographs, intelligence information, and the rescheduled supply of the latest model of Sidewinder Lima all-aspect infra-red seeking missiles, which allowed existing British inventory to be employed. Margaret Thatcher stated that "without the Harrier jets and their immense manoeuvrability, equipped as they were with the latest version of the Sidewinder missile, supplied to us by U.S. Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, we could never have got back the Falklands". This is not only politically, but militarily questionable, however, as all the Fleet Air Arm Sidewinder engagements, proved to be from the rear.

In early May, Casper Weinberger offered the use of an American aircraft carrier.[16] This seemingly extremely generous offer was seen by some as vital: it was noted by Woodward that the loss of Invincible would have been a severe setback, but the loss of Hermes would have meant an end to the whole operation. Weinberger admits [17] that there would have been many problems if a request had ever been made; not least, it would have meant U.S. personnel becoming directly involved in the conflict, as training British forces to crew the vessel would have taken years.

Both Weinberger and Reagan were later awarded the British honour of Knight Commander of the British Empire (KBE). American critics of the U.S. role claimed that, by failing to side with Argentina, the U.S. violated its own Monroe Doctrine.

In September 2001, President of Mexico Vicente Fox cited the conflict as proof of the failure of the Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance, since the treaty provides for mutual defence. However, in this conflict, Argentina was the aggressor
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=17199.msg398801#msg398801 date=1193783270]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398653#msg398653 date=1193776523]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=17199.msg398636#msg398636 date=1193776001]
are you seriously saying without Yankee intervention, the battle on Europe would have been won by VE Day? Are you seriously saying that? My lord ... Yes the English had 'repelled' the Battle of Britain, or HItler had perhaps made his biggest mistake and opened a second front giving the chance for the Brits to breathe after non-stop assaults on her cities.

And considering Rommel had the 'Allied forces' just west of Tobruk in Jan 1943, I don't exactly see how the war had already shifted (Granted, this was due to troop reinforcements being sent to Burma). Rommel was basically at El Alamein in May 1943 ... only to be pushed back ... but don't let that get in you rway.

Put your anti-American hatred to the side - were it not for their involvement in the war, things would not have ended as they did.
[/quote]

What anti American hatred??

Britain had withstood all of Germany might since Sept 3rd 1939 the American became involved in the was on Dec 8th 1941 there first battle was mid 1942.

Monty had taken Tobruk in 1941 Britain had entered Greece in 1941 all this was without America.


The war in Europe would have ended the same, all the commonwealth soldiers fighting against Japan would have been in Europe.

Again get your facts right.


Fact we wouldn't have 'all been speaking German' now

We WOULDN'T be having Frankfurters with our chips.



[/quote]

Phooey. We were out on our feet. As Wizzy rightly points out, Rommel had rolled us back from those gains you mention in N.Africa. The war in the Far East was still a long way from ending and there is no way those Commonwealth troops would have been free to join the European theatre.

So get YOUR facts right, matey. The US did not win the war on its own, but neither could we have done it without them.
[/quote]

Haha we are playing what if's, the What if was if Japan hadn't attacked America, If THAT hadn't of happened we would have NOT been in the far east matey!
 
Sunny, I did indeed have Maggie Thatcher's speech (among other things) in mind.  What that Wiki entry doesn't say is that some in the US military were very concerned at being left short of the things for a period, and sent Cap Weinberger a report saying so.  He read it, simply wrote on it "Give the British what they need and we'll settle up later" and sent it back.  

I don't understand the "politically and militarily questionable" bit at all BTW.  There were plenty of political aspects to the whole business but Mrs.Thatcher's reference in her speech was a wholly military one, and WTF difference does it make where or how those engagements took place?  The Argie air force - their most effective weapon against us - had to be shot down wherever necessary.

Asbo, we're not playing "what ifs" at all.  The war in the Far East dragged on until 1945 so the Far Eastern armies would not have been available in the early 1940s in the European theatre.  Simple as.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398810#msg398810 date=1193784106]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=17199.msg398801#msg398801 date=1193783270]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398653#msg398653 date=1193776523]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=17199.msg398636#msg398636 date=1193776001]
are you seriously saying without Yankee intervention, the battle on Europe would have been won by VE Day? Are you seriously saying that? My lord ... Yes the English had 'repelled' the Battle of Britain, or HItler had perhaps made his biggest mistake and opened a second front giving the chance for the Brits to breathe after non-stop assaults on her cities.

And considering Rommel had the 'Allied forces' just west of Tobruk in Jan 1943, I don't exactly see how the war had already shifted (Granted, this was due to troop reinforcements being sent to Burma). Rommel was basically at El Alamein in May 1943 ... only to be pushed back ... but don't let that get in you rway.

Put your anti-American hatred to the side - were it not for their involvement in the war, things would not have ended as they did.
[/quote]

What anti American hatred??

Britain had withstood all of Germany might since Sept 3rd 1939 the American became involved in the was on Dec 8th 1941 there first battle was mid 1942.

Monty had taken Tobruk in 1941 Britain had entered Greece in 1941 all this was without America.


The war in Europe would have ended the same, all the commonwealth soldiers fighting against Japan would have been in Europe.

Again get your facts right.


Fact we wouldn't have 'all been speaking German' now

We WOULDN'T be having Frankfurters with our chips.



[/quote]

Phooey. We were out on our feet. As Wizzy rightly points out, Rommel had rolled us back from those gains you mention in N.Africa. The war in the Far East was still a long way from ending and there is no way those Commonwealth troops would have been free to join the European theatre.

So get YOUR facts right, matey. The US did not win the war on its own, but neither could we have done it without them.
[/quote]

Haha we are playing what if's, the What if was if Japan hadn't attacked America, If THAT hadn't of happened we would have NOT been in the far east matey!
[/quote]

Germany were fucked either way. Its a bit of a leap to say that America won the war, as i think innevitably the war would have been won sooner or later as soon as the decision to fight on two fronts was made. Ultimately America hastened the end of the war, but if a nation deserves credit for actually TURNING the war, then it is undoubtably Russia.
That said Hitler made so many baffling decisions from about 41 onwards, it really was just a matter of time. Its the ultimate irony, that a control freak is rarely in control of anything.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=17199.msg398819#msg398819 date=1193784472]
Sunny, I did indeed have Maggie Thatcher's speech (among other things) in mind. What that Wiki entry doesn't say is that some in the US military were very concerned at being left short of the things for a period, and sent Cap Weinberger a report saying so. He read it, simply wrote on it "Give the British what they need and we'll settle up later" and sent it back.

I don't understand the "politically and militarily questionable" bit at all BTW. There were plenty of political aspects to the whole business but Mrs.Thatcher's reference in her speech was a wholly military one, and WTF difference does it make where or how those engagements took place? The Argie air force - their most effective weapon against us - had to be shot down wherever necessary.
[/quote]

Yet other sources state the US military wanted to back us up, the politicians never. I guess only the politicians will know the full truth.
 
Phooey. We were out on our feet. As Wizzy rightly points out, Rommel had rolled us back from those gains you mention in N.Africa. The war in the Far East was still a long way from ending and there is no way those Commonwealth troops would have been free to join the European theatre.

So get YOUR facts right, matey. The US did not win the war on its own, but neither could we have done it without them.
[/quote]

Oh heres a Short History of Monty v Rommel ( we won)

Jan 22, 1941 - Tobruk in North Africa falls to the British and Australians.

Feb 11, 1941 - British forces advance into Italian Somaliland in East Africa.

Feb 12, 1941 - German General Erwin Rommel arrives in Tripoli, North Africa.

Feb 14, 1941 - First units of German 'Afrika Korps' arrive in North Africa.

April 14, 1941 - Rommel attacks Tobruk.

May 1, 1941 - German attack on Tobruk is repulsed.

>> May 10, 1941 - Deputy Führer Rudolph Hess flies to Scotland. <<


May 15, 1941 - Operation Brevity begins (the British counter-attack in Egypt).

>> June 8, 1941 - Allies invade Syria and Lebanon. << Thats our Commonwealth Allies America still not in War

July 14, 1941 - British occupy Syria.

Nov 27, 1941 - Soviet troops retake Rostov. >> Red Army starts it fight back <<

Dec 5, 1941 - German attack on Moscow is abandoned.

Dec 6, 1941 - Soviet Army launches a major counter-offensive around Moscow.


>>>>Dec 7, 1941 PEARL HARBOUR <<<

Dec 16, 1941 - Rommel begins a retreat to El Agheila in North Africa.

May 26, 1942 - Rommel begins an offensive against the Gazala Line.

June 21, 1942 - Rommel captures Tobruk.

June 30, 1942 - Rommel reaches El Alamein near Cairo, Egypt.

July 1-30 - First Battle of El Alamein.

Aug 7, 1942 - British General Bernard Montgomery takes command of Eighth Army in North Africa.

Sept 2, 1942 - Rommel driven back by Montgomery in the Battle of Alam Halfa.

Nov 1, 1942 - Operation Supercharge (Allies break Axis lines at El Alamein). Thats COMMONWEALTH ALLIES America not seen ground fighting yet!

Nov 8, 1942 - Operation Torch begins (U.S. invasion of North Africa). Yay there here at last!!

Dec 13, 1942 - Rommel withdraws from El Agheila.

Jan 23, 1943 - Montgomery's Eighth Army takes Tripoli.

>>> Feb 2, 1943 - Germans surrender at Stalingrad in the first big defeat of Hitler's armies. <<<

March 2, 1943 - Germans begin a withdrawal from Tunisia, Africa.

March 20-28 - Montgomery's Eighth Army breaks through the Mareth Line in Tunisia.

April 6/7 - Axis forces in Tunisia begin a withdrawal toward Enfidaville as American and British forces link.

May 7, 1943 - Allies take Tunisia.

May 13, 1943 - German and Italian troops surrender in North Africa. Its all over in Africa!!!

Not bad for a team... err country 'out on her feet' !!
 
Well,it's nice that the Brits think that America was superfluous and all that and Monty woud have had Hitler's ass chewed up all by himself.

The Americans were in the war only by Pearl Harbour, but the Lend-Lease Act did help the British stay afloat whilst she was the sole defender of Europe against Germany after the rest had fallen like skittles.

The refusal of the Americans to enter the war was basically out of an opinion that it was either an European problem (Germany) and that any belligerence in the Pacific against the Japanese was basically aimed at protecting predominantly British colonies (Malaya,Singapore,India,Burma etc).

It is that opinion incidentally, which has caused many Americans to feel that the British knew about Pearl Harbour and hoped that the bombing would entice the Americans to declare war.

And that probably stems from the fact that during WW1, the First Lord of the Admiralty (Winston Churchill) was rumoured to have secretly hoped to place American commercial vessels at greater risk of torpedoing in the hope that America would declare war.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398810#msg398810 date=1193784106]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=17199.msg398801#msg398801 date=1193783270]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398653#msg398653 date=1193776523]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=17199.msg398636#msg398636 date=1193776001]
are you seriously saying without Yankee intervention, the battle on Europe would have been won by VE Day? Are you seriously saying that? My lord ... Yes the English had 'repelled' the Battle of Britain, or HItler had perhaps made his biggest mistake and opened a second front giving the chance for the Brits to breathe after non-stop assaults on her cities.

And considering Rommel had the 'Allied forces' just west of Tobruk in Jan 1943, I don't exactly see how the war had already shifted (Granted, this was due to troop reinforcements being sent to Burma). Rommel was basically at El Alamein in May 1943 ... only to be pushed back ... but don't let that get in you rway.

Put your anti-American hatred to the side - were it not for their involvement in the war, things would not have ended as they did.
[/quote]

What anti American hatred??

Britain had withstood all of Germany might since Sept 3rd 1939 the American became involved in the was on Dec 8th 1941 there first battle was mid 1942.

Monty had taken Tobruk in 1941 Britain had entered Greece in 1941 all this was without America.


The war in Europe would have ended the same, all the commonwealth soldiers fighting against Japan would have been in Europe.

Again get your facts right.


Fact we wouldn't have 'all been speaking German' now

We WOULDN'T be having Frankfurters with our chips.



[/quote]

Phooey. We were out on our feet. As Wizzy rightly points out, Rommel had rolled us back from those gains you mention in N.Africa. The war in the Far East was still a long way from ending and there is no way those Commonwealth troops would have been free to join the European theatre.

So get YOUR facts right, matey. The US did not win the war on its own, but neither could we have done it without them.
[/quote]

Haha we are playing what if's, the What if was if Japan hadn't attacked America, If THAT hadn't of happened we would have NOT been in the far east matey!
[/quote]

I'm not sure Arthur Percival shares your conviction,Asbo.

Whilst you may not have been speaking German,I would most certainly be speaking Japanese.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=17199.msg398820#msg398820 date=1193784528]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398810#msg398810 date=1193784106]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=17199.msg398801#msg398801 date=1193783270]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398653#msg398653 date=1193776523]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=17199.msg398636#msg398636 date=1193776001]
are you seriously saying without Yankee intervention, the battle on Europe would have been won by VE Day? Are you seriously saying that? My lord ... Yes the English had 'repelled' the Battle of Britain, or HItler had perhaps made his biggest mistake and opened a second front giving the chance for the Brits to breathe after non-stop assaults on her cities.

And considering Rommel had the 'Allied forces' just west of Tobruk in Jan 1943, I don't exactly see how the war had already shifted (Granted, this was due to troop reinforcements being sent to Burma). Rommel was basically at El Alamein in May 1943 ... only to be pushed back ... but don't let that get in you rway.

Put your anti-American hatred to the side - were it not for their involvement in the war, things would not have ended as they did.
[/quote]

What anti American hatred??

Britain had withstood all of Germany might since Sept 3rd 1939 the American became involved in the was on Dec 8th 1941 there first battle was mid 1942.

Monty had taken Tobruk in 1941 Britain had entered Greece in 1941 all this was without America.


The war in Europe would have ended the same, all the commonwealth soldiers fighting against Japan would have been in Europe.

Again get your facts right.


Fact we wouldn't have 'all been speaking German' now

We WOULDN'T be having Frankfurters with our chips.



[/quote]

Phooey. We were out on our feet. As Wizzy rightly points out, Rommel had rolled us back from those gains you mention in N.Africa. The war in the Far East was still a long way from ending and there is no way those Commonwealth troops would have been free to join the European theatre.

So get YOUR facts right, matey. The US did not win the war on its own, but neither could we have done it without them.
[/quote]

Haha we are playing what if's, the What if was if Japan hadn't attacked America, If THAT hadn't of happened we would have NOT been in the far east matey!
[/quote]

Germany were fucked either way. Its a bit of a leap to say that America won the war, as i think innevitably the war would have been won sooner or later as soon as the decision to fight on two fronts was made. Ultimately America hastened the end of the war, but if a nation deserves credit for actually TURNING the war, then it is undoubtably Russia.
That said Hitler made so many baffling decisions from about 41 onwards, it really was just a matter of time. Its the ultimate irony, that a control freak is rarely in control of anything.

[/quote]

I can't believe it took 6 pages for someone to finally mention the ruskies.
 
[quote author=Mr Moominpoops link=topic=17199.msg398971#msg398971 date=1193800864]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=17199.msg398820#msg398820 date=1193784528]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398810#msg398810 date=1193784106]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=17199.msg398801#msg398801 date=1193783270]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398653#msg398653 date=1193776523]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=17199.msg398636#msg398636 date=1193776001]
are you seriously saying without Yankee intervention, the battle on Europe would have been won by VE Day? Are you seriously saying that? My lord ... Yes the English had 'repelled' the Battle of Britain, or HItler had perhaps made his biggest mistake and opened a second front giving the chance for the Brits to breathe after non-stop assaults on her cities.

And considering Rommel had the 'Allied forces' just west of Tobruk in Jan 1943, I don't exactly see how the war had already shifted (Granted, this was due to troop reinforcements being sent to Burma). Rommel was basically at El Alamein in May 1943 ... only to be pushed back ... but don't let that get in you rway.

Put your anti-American hatred to the side - were it not for their involvement in the war, things would not have ended as they did.
[/quote]

What anti American hatred??

Britain had withstood all of Germany might since Sept 3rd 1939 the American became involved in the was on Dec 8th 1941 there first battle was mid 1942.

Monty had taken Tobruk in 1941 Britain had entered Greece in 1941 all this was without America.


The war in Europe would have ended the same, all the commonwealth soldiers fighting against Japan would have been in Europe.

Again get your facts right.


Fact we wouldn't have 'all been speaking German' now

We WOULDN'T be having Frankfurters with our chips.



[/quote]

Phooey. We were out on our feet. As Wizzy rightly points out, Rommel had rolled us back from those gains you mention in N.Africa. The war in the Far East was still a long way from ending and there is no way those Commonwealth troops would have been free to join the European theatre.

So get YOUR facts right, matey. The US did not win the war on its own, but neither could we have done it without them.
[/quote]

Haha we are playing what if's, the What if was if Japan hadn't attacked America, If THAT hadn't of happened we would have NOT been in the far east matey!
[/quote]

Germany were fucked either way. Its a bit of a leap to say that America won the war, as i think innevitably the war would have been won sooner or later as soon as the decision to fight on two fronts was made. Ultimately America hastened the end of the war, but if a nation deserves credit for actually TURNING the war, then it is undoubtably Russia.
That said Hitler made so many baffling decisions from about 41 onwards, it really was just a matter of time. Its the ultimate irony, that a control freak is rarely in control of anything.

[/quote]

I can't believe it took 6 pages for someone to finally mention the ruskies.
[/quote]

Try opening your eyes. I spoke about the Reds in like my first proper post RE WWII in this thread...
 
The Russians have the distinction of being the nation that suffered the most losses at the hands of Germany. But let's also however note that it was the Treaty of Non-Aggression signed between the 2 nations in the first place that emboldened Hitler to invade Western Europe.

Had Hitler and Stalin kept the peace (unlikely,admittedly) things could have been very different.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=17199.msg398974#msg398974 date=1193804434]

The Russians have the distinction of being the nation that suffered the most losses at the hands of Germany. But let's also however note that it was the Treaty of Non-Aggression signed between the 2 nations in the first place that emboldened Hitler to invade Western Europe.

Had Hitler and Stalin kept the peace (unlikely,admittedly) things could have been very different.
[/quote]

Well,thats a given,their losses accounted for over 60% of the Allies overall dead, another 23% was made up of the Chinese losses, which leaves roughly 10% of the allies losses to be divvy'd up by the UK,France,Poland,Yugoslavia and the US
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=17199.msg398965#msg398965 date=1193793431]

Well,it's nice that the Brits think that America was superfluous and all that and Monty woud have had Hitler's ass chewed up all by himself.

The Americans were in the war only by Pearl Harbour, but the Lend-Lease Act did help the British stay afloat whilst she was the sole defender of Europe against Germany after the rest had fallen like skittles.

The refusal of the Americans to enter the war was basically out of an opinion that it was either an European problem (Germany) and that any belligerence in the Pacific against the Japanese was basically aimed at protecting predominantly British colonies (Malaya,Singapore,India,Burma etc).

It is that opinion incidentally, which has caused many Americans to feel that the British knew about Pearl Harbour and hoped that the bombing would entice the Americans to declare war.

And that probably stems from the fact that during WW1, the First Lord of the Admiralty (Winston Churchill) was rumoured to have secretly hoped to place American commercial vessels at greater risk of torpedoing in the hope that America would declare war.


[/quote]

I have actually read quite a few pieces that say that the US actually had broken the Japanese code and knew something would happen - they didn't have 'exact information', but they knew an attack was on the way. That's where opinions diverge - many think FDR allowed it because it was his only way into the war and he knew the US had to be involved ...
 
Well,those figures will always be disputed.

Fact of the matter is nobody can really say how many people did in the war. MOst historians do agree that Russia suffered the most, and China next.

My point is that whilst Russia did bear the brunt of the losses; it's a bit difficult to consider them as 'allies' in the true sense of the word since it was their actions in the first place that greatly helped Hitler's cause.

Operation Barbarossa was madness on Hitler's part, but there was method to it.

Russia was busily invading nations left,right and centre as Hitler's ally in the initial stages.It was these actions that infuriated the lunatic to declare war on Russia in the belief that it was too dangerous to turn your back on such a powerful nation whilst it busied itself with Western Europe.The stupidity was the belief it could fight 2 fronts at the same time.

One interesting anecdote about how Russia suddenly found itself an 'Ally' of the West was the Katyn Massacre.

Russia occupied Poland and slaughtered about 15,000 Polish troops.When things changed and they suddenly found themselves as 'one of the good guys'; they busily made it look as if the slaughter was done by the Nazis.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=17199.msg398978#msg398978 date=1193809121]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=17199.msg398965#msg398965 date=1193793431]

Well,it's nice that the Brits think that America was superfluous and all that and Monty woud have had Hitler's ass chewed up all by himself.

The Americans were in the war only by Pearl Harbour, but the Lend-Lease Act did help the British stay afloat whilst she was the sole defender of Europe against Germany after the rest had fallen like skittles.

The refusal of the Americans to enter the war was basically out of an opinion that it was either an European problem (Germany) and that any belligerence in the Pacific against the Japanese was basically aimed at protecting predominantly British colonies (Malaya,Singapore,India,Burma etc).

It is that opinion incidentally, which has caused many Americans to feel that the British knew about Pearl Harbour and hoped that the bombing would entice the Americans to declare war.

And that probably stems from the fact that during WW1, the First Lord of the Admiralty (Winston Churchill) was rumoured to have secretly hoped to place American commercial vessels at greater risk of torpedoing in the hope that America would declare war.


[/quote]

I have actually read quite a few pieces that say that the US actually had broken the Japanese code and knew something would happen - they didn't have 'exact information', but they knew an attack was on the way. That's where opinions diverge - many think FDR allowed it because it was his only way into the war and he knew the US had to be involved ...
[/quote]

Yeah,those stories won't go away.

It is possible,of course. BUt it's a bit difficult to accept that FDR willingly sacrificed so many battleships and cruisers just so America would be forced into the war.

As it happens, Pearl Harbour was an incredibly lucky stroke for the Americans.

Had Nagumo ordered his planes to strike the oil and port facilities, Pearl Harbour would have ceased to be operational for an indefinite period which would have left the sole naval base with appreciable naval resources to be San Diego.That would have effectively abandoned the Phillipines and the entire Pacific Rim to Japan.

The reason why that conspiracy theory won't die is because all the US carriers were ordered out to sea just before the attack.

(I think it was Hornet,Enterprise and Yorktown; tho i can't really remember)

The theory is plausible,but I think the Americans just had some dumb luck.

It's not surprising tho, it's better to think that there was some dastardly genius plan by the Americans instead of just plain stupidity.

(The British had GIVEN radar machines to the Americans but the facilities in Hawaii were manned by poorly trained soldiers because the Americans basically didn't trust radar)

That stupidity and a bit of subterfuge by the Japanese led to the successful attack.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=17199.msg398965#msg398965 date=1193793431]

Well,it's nice that the Brits think that America was superfluous and all that and Monty woud have had Hitler's ass chewed up all by himself.

The Americans were in the war only by Pearl Harbour, but the Lend-Lease Act did help the British stay afloat whilst she was the sole defender of Europe against Germany after the rest had fallen like skittles.


[/quote]

Britain Bankrupted herself fighting the War, we actually finished paying our War debts to America this Year!

Ohh and America refused to give us a rebuilding loan right after the war causing untold hardship to our nations civilians,

we actually finished War rationing in 1954 NINE YEARS after the War had ended.


1954: Housewives celebrate end of rationing
Fourteen years of food rationing in Britain ended at midnight when restrictions on the sale and purchase of meat and bacon were lifted.

Members of the London Housewives' Association held a special ceremony in London's Trafalgar Square to mark Derationing Day.

The Minister of Fuel and Power, Geoffrey Lloyd, burned a large replica of a ration book at an open meeting in his constituency.

But the Minister of Food, Major Gwilym Lloyd-George, told a meeting at Bebington in Cheshire he would keep his as a souvenir and praised all those traders and organisations that had co-operated with the rationing system.

For the first time since the war began in 1939 London's Smithfield Market opened at midnight instead of 0600 and meat sellers were doing a roaring trade.
 
You must have mistaken me for some sort of American apologist,far from it.

I just thought I'd point out that your notion of Britain (and the Commonwealth and Russia) winning the war by itself without America to be utterly bullshit.

Incidentally, even if Monty had pulled off a Rambo-esque destruction of the Third Reich; there was the small matter of Japan.

The generation that fought WW2 is rightly called 'the greatest generation'; and that includes the Americans.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=17199.msg398854#msg398854 date=1193785425]


Phooey. We were out on our feet. As Wizzy rightly points out, Rommel had rolled us back from those gains you mention in N.Africa. The war in the Far East was still a long way from ending and there is no way those Commonwealth troops would have been free to join the European theatre.

So get YOUR facts right, matey. The US did not win the war on its own, but neither could we have done it without them.
[/quote]

Oh heres a Short History of Monty v Rommel ( we won)

Jan 22, 1941 - Tobruk in North Africa falls to the British and Australians.

Feb 11, 1941 - British forces advance into Italian Somaliland in East Africa.

Feb 12, 1941 - German General Erwin Rommel arrives in Tripoli, North Africa.

Feb 14, 1941 - First units of German 'Afrika Korps' arrive in North Africa.

April 14, 1941 - Rommel attacks Tobruk.

May 1, 1941 - German attack on Tobruk is repulsed.

>> May 10, 1941 - Deputy Führer Rudolph Hess flies to Scotland. <<


May 15, 1941 - Operation Brevity begins (the British counter-attack in Egypt).

>> June 8, 1941 - Allies invade Syria and Lebanon. << Thats our Commonwealth Allies America still not in War

July 14, 1941 - British occupy Syria.

Nov 27, 1941 - Soviet troops retake Rostov. >> Red Army starts it fight back <<

Dec 5, 1941 - German attack on Moscow is abandoned.

Dec 6, 1941 - Soviet Army launches a major counter-offensive around Moscow.


>>>>Dec 7, 1941 PEARL HARBOUR <<<

Dec 16, 1941 - Rommel begins a retreat to El Agheila in North Africa.

May 26, 1942 - Rommel begins an offensive against the Gazala Line.

June 21, 1942 - Rommel captures Tobruk.

June 30, 1942 - Rommel reaches El Alamein near Cairo, Egypt.

July 1-30 - First Battle of El Alamein.

Aug 7, 1942 - British General Bernard Montgomery takes command of Eighth Army in North Africa.

Sept 2, 1942 - Rommel driven back by Montgomery in the Battle of Alam Halfa.

Nov 1, 1942 - Operation Supercharge (Allies break Axis lines at El Alamein). Thats COMMONWEALTH ALLIES America not seen ground fighting yet!

Nov 8, 1942 - Operation Torch begins (U.S. invasion of North Africa). Yay there here at last!!

Dec 13, 1942 - Rommel withdraws from El Agheila.

Jan 23, 1943 - Montgomery's Eighth Army takes Tripoli.

>>> Feb 2, 1943 - Germans surrender at Stalingrad in the first big defeat of Hitler's armies. <<<

March 2, 1943 - Germans begin a withdrawal from Tunisia, Africa.

March 20-28 - Montgomery's Eighth Army breaks through the Mareth Line in Tunisia.

April 6/7 - Axis forces in Tunisia begin a withdrawal toward Enfidaville as American and British forces link.

May 7, 1943 - Allies take Tunisia.

May 13, 1943 - German and Italian troops surrender in North Africa. Its all over in Africa!!!

Not bad for a team... err country 'out on her feet' !!

[/quote]

Remind me, Asbo mate, when was it that the US entered the war? 194[size=50pt]2[/size], wasn't it? If Hollywood's attempt to grab all the credit is daft, it's no more so than your attempt to claim we could have won without the US. If anything theirs is more honest, as I don't suppose they would deny for one second that they're doing it to make money. You by contrast are just rehashing half a century's worth of embarrassment that we needed help. Give it a rest FFS.
 
How was it embarassing to need the Americans?

Britain had been the lone nation defending Europe for over 2 years.

America entered the war in 1942, but it did do a lot to keep Britain afloat; Asbo has rightly pointed out that the Lend-Lease Act (which no seems to have mentioned) wasn't exactly generous.

It should be noted that America regarded the war as a European problem; and Hitler went to great lengths to make it look that way.Hitler had in fact courted American and British ties before the war,if anyone remembers.

America had no interest in the Japanese threat because it basically didn't want to shed blood protecting British colonies.

I dislike Hollywood's belief that America won the war by itself,but by the same token, suggesting that it would have been won without America is even dumber.

And why is the war limited to Europe?

When Churchill spoke about 'the greatest capitulation in British history', he wasn't talking about Dunkirk.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=17199.msg399077#msg399077 date=1193825695]


Britain had been the lone nation defending Europe for over 2 years.

[/quote]

they made victory in wwii possible with that stand ... the yanks and russians 'finished' the nazis and japanese off, but again, that was made possible by the british stand when most of europe had capitulated
 
It shouldn't be at all embarrassing, Avvy, but unfortunately certain Brits of my age and older still see it that way. It's exactly the same syndrome that we and the US get in equal measure from the French - people hate others seeing them when they're low and needing help, so they resent the very ones who come to their aid.
 
[quote author=Grungefuttock link=topic=17199.msg399087#msg399087 date=1193826024]
It shouldn't be at all embarrassing, Avvy, but unfortunately certain Brits of my age and older still see it that way. It's exactly the same syndrome that we and the US get in equal measure from the French - people hate others seeing them when they're low and needing help, so they resent the very ones who come to their aid.
[/quote]

I never realised that,Grungey.

Well,the French have always made an issue about it, but then again,they're French.

I never realised that the British felt that way too.

This is a very interesting thread,to be fair.

I suppose I shouldn't be so harsh, it's just that I was slightly annoyed when I saw the 'Rule Britannia' posts about how they would have won the 'war' without America.

The 'war' for me was a lot bigger than Europe and North Africa, if you get my meaning.

There is nothing that anyone of that generation has to be embarassed about.

I just wish more young people today appreciate what they went through.

And that's not just a problem confined to America and Europe.
 
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