The curious case of the RB who thought he was a CM

[Dreambeliever]

[article]“My specific skill set and what I’m best at is someone who plays in the middle, someone who controls the game, controls the tempo, creates, breaks line, progresses the ball up the pitch,” said. “You probably get more out of me from being in the middle and I’m able to show off that skill set as much as possible. My role is to go and create and make things happen, control the game in the middle of the pitch, get the ball on to the attackers, play forward, run forward, goals, assists, create chances, get people off their seats."
[/article]
He seems completely sold on himself being a Pirlo-like midfielder.

Ha ha did you just quote the opening post

 

[rubans]

I read somewhere today that the England press were loving his display from yesterday. But I don't know what game they were watching - I thought he was fucking shit, like most of the time when he plays in midfield. I personally think he will be Southgate's plan B if Jude is ever injured - only in the hope that he might provide some level of creating passing to break the lines. Here are my observations:

• He don't run with the ball very well,
• He seemed the least press-resistant of all the England players in midfield.
• His tackling is not all that in midfield when compared to the others he has to play along.
• You can see when he is chasing a player he is well over-exerting himself to the point he might pully a hammy
• A football game is 90mins minimum right ? - so are we saying we are going to fucking let what to me looks like a passenger just walk in the midfield in the hope he can pull off of a worldy pass - because that is what we are saying and hoping for. He lacks that impetus that Jude Bellingham or even Maddison could have provided for England, and I also think for us Liverpool - him playing in midfield slows us down, and stops us making the best use of current midfield. Also his hollywood passes ONLY work if the player to receive is in the right position in the first place and must know his game.

Now - my dear bitches - it might sound like I am having a go at this guy for the great service he has given us but I know he can defend very well and has done so in his early seasons. He is also been the most effective as a RB - but what he needs to do if he is allowed by Klopp is go forward when it's safe to do so and deliver those deadly balls in like he has done for all our successful seasons. His skills will be utilized more that way, and as his long range passing is so good - I don't even think he needs to risk going so far up the pitch anyway.

Some of you fellow bitches will argue - "but last 10 games when we moved him to midfield we were great...blah blah blah" - well that only worked because we actually had two players in midfield who could pass accurately in Curtis, and Trent, and Curtis as you should all know by now is probably the most press resistant player in the country, and it helped Fabinho. We have better players in midfield now that can do more than what Trent does for us over the course of 90 minutes in a game.

He wasn’t shite nor was he great. You must have watched another game…
You are getting bit overboard, it was pretty much a meaningless friendly against Malta. Trent’s game is not about tackling so I wouldn’t expect him to be that either. His midfield career wasn’t going to start or end here.
And Maddison? Have you seen him for England? He is a luxury and his lack of cover led to Ukraine scoring, only Bellingham is a starter in middle along with Rice, Maddison is not one anything yet.

 

[Buddha]

So you’re guessing and making your arguments about an assumption that you understand his attitude, desire and commitment to play for his boyhood club based on his «vibe».

You’re having a mare here mate. Just like the Swedish national team

It often comes down to this with Trent.

A bunch of fans regularly finding fault (based on a feeling or pound shop psychological analysis) with a player who (along with Robbo) for seasons consistently ran himself into the ground up and down the flank as an assist machine in a radical reimagining of the full back rule and to great success. And now, in this new evolution, Trent’s tasked with effectively doing his best to cover two positions and learn a set of movements / instructions that requires him to stay focused and mobile for 90 mins.

Meanwhile, the lazy / narcissistic image of Trent sustains despite him playing for a manager manifestly known for the value he places on a player’s positive and selfless personality, and his demand that players commit wholeheartedly to serving a system.

And here we are again. We’ve started the season better than most imagined possible and with the least losses / statistically tightest defence around. There’s obvious wrinkles (and more personnel to be added) to this new system and Trent is still learning the role, but our record since Klopp shifted him into the hybrid has been pretty revelatory and sound, despite a whole load of uncertainty around the squad and tough first half of last season.

Whether Trent desires in the long run to return to a more central position or not, is not mutually exclusive to his proven capacity and desire to do the best for Klopp, his teammates and us fans. It’s with great irony that Trent’s move into the hybrid role, with initial success, runs concurrent to a whole load of Liverpool fans finding it hard to hold a ‘hybrid’ idea of his potential personal desire (to play in midfield etc) and his evidenced professionalism (commitment and success for the club over years for a highly demanding manager).

 

[Hansern]

Excellent post mate

 

[Woland]

As those were the closing arguments and ended the debate I think we can close the topic.

 

[Fabio]

I forgot that past achievements and performances trump everything, and klopp is infallible, even after most of the forum questioning his transfer priorities for the last few years . Apologies

 

[Red Bird]

You mean he can't lose his concentration and let someone run right by him into the six yard box? Off the ball he's a calamity as a deep lying playmaker. That's what we call a DM who has the ability to play a pass but zero of the more relevant characteristics for the role, right?

He’s not yet a quality central midfielder— just has pretensions of being one. If he want to be one, he may want to watch clips of the top ones and see that they were (are) also tough tacklers and who close(d) down space; Alonso, David Silva, Pirlo, Zidane, Rui Costa, Riquelme, Ronaldinho and Gullit to mention a few. At times again Malta he was just going through the motions when facing an opponent with the ball, and not forcing play back or wide.

 

[Modo]

Why am I getting the feeling that some think it's impossible for Trent to turn into a midfielder?
Like it's never been done before.

 

[Fabio]

Why am I getting the feeling that some think it's impossible for Trent to turn into a midfielder?
Like it's never been done before.

I don't think they believe it's impossible. They just believe he'll turn into a defensive powerhouse overnight. And who are we to argue? It's not like we've all discussed at length his defensive frailties, and people are allowing a good start to the season overlook that (where actually gomez has been much better and brought better balance because we have a weak DM).

it's best to drop it because discussing football isn't the thing to do here apparently

 

[Buddha]

I don't think they believe it's impossible. They just believe he'll turn into a defensive powerhouse overnight. And who are we to argue? It's not like we've all discussed at length his defensive frailties, and people are allowing a good start to the season overlook that (where actually gomez has been much better and brought better balance because we have a weak DM).

it's best to drop it because discussing football isn't the thing to do here apparently

Discussing football is exactly what we’re here for…amateur psychoanalysis isn’t.

 

[Fabio]

Discussing football is exactly what we’re here for…amateur psychoanalysis isn’t.

Thats a load of shite and you know it. We're here to talk all facets of the game and the players. Their actions and behaviours are just as important as anything the do on the pitch. We do it every transfer window, or every "sulk" mo has, or last season why trent was so listless and disinterested in the first 3/4 of the season, and so on.

Everyones saying "oh amateur psychologist" when you see trent slowly jog back defensively from having to cover ANOTHER dm who's not good enough, then burst in to life when attacking. Thats my point, thats my logic. He then talks up internationally that he wants to play in mid? That where he sees himself? . You bring that upo here and its "oh i trust klopp, he knows him". But whos to say trent WON'T start to press a claim in midfield when everyone and his dog (outside of LFC) is probably telling him to move there, when he WANTS to play there. This isn't amateur psychology, it's fucking inevitable he'll want to press it.

Klopps has made a rod for his own back by allowing trent to move to double pivot when in possession. He's opening up the right for attack and hoping ibou can cover it, and he's stretching the back line creating space, as trent and Mac aren't good enough to get back in time or have the positional nous to get back and be useful.

Our period of success came with trent at right back, hugging the wing and working with Hendo and Salah. Now he doesn't because Szob is more than creative enough. Mac at the 6 is more than creative enough. We don't need him drifting in to that RDM/RCM space as much. We need him deeper to set off Nunez/Jota/ salah/ Szob/Jones/Whoever

Priorities for the summer should have been RCM (check), DM (in a fashion) and a RB. Trent could still play RB, but we could slowly introduce further forward (where he wants to be), but still utilise him and train up his backup (who ideally was an actual RB)

I understand it was arguably desperation to try and get the team kickstarted again last year that prompted the tactical change. For me, it's just given a longer term headache.

This whole argument frustrates me because it feels like i'm being misrepresented as someone who is like "ooooh, he's wearing green today. He must feel annoyed". Everything i've said has been based in fact since trent broke in. Fantastic going forward, a bit iffy in defence. Arguably he's getting worse defensively. I don't believe thats down to attitude, i believe it's down to he's planning his next move when he gets the ball; a raking beauty of a pass no doubt. But he's forgetting the important part of winning the ball first

 

[Fabio]

The man says "My specific skill set and what I’m best at is someone who plays in the middle, someone who controls the game, controls the tempo, creates, breaks line, progresses the ball up the pitch" and doesn't name a single defensive attribute, you know he's not got any time for it.

If i named a list of posters who i enjoyed reading, but didn't name Dantes, you wouldn't immediately assume "oh well obviously he likes Dantes" would you?

 

[Fabio]

I suppose, all in all it's a pointless discussion. It's either red tinted or negative fuckers. No nuance. No middle ground.

 

[binomial]

The Trent debate is one so divided and talked about non stop that it’s arguably one of the best in the clubs history.

 

[Fabio]

I fucking hate it

 

[Whaddapie]

What does my head in on this topic is that although us 'negative fuckers' always give him credit for how good he is when going forward, highlighting only his (completely obvious) deficiencies in defense, the TCDNW brigade always have a reason why he doesn't put as much into defending as he should... It's never his fault. It's simply not possible that he's not trying hard enough at the back. It's all obviously Jurgen's fault for not rebuilding the entire club around a uniquely talented passer of the ball who's simply not good enough to anchor an elite midfield unit. Such nonsense.

 

[keniget]

We've just spent the best part of 150M on three #8 type midfielders.

If the plan was the shift TAA into midfield, we've really gone about it the wrong way.

 

[Buddha]

Jeez, why does everything have to end up so split all the time?

I ended my post with a paragraph highlighting how two viewpoints / facts do have to be ultimately mutually exclusive (and the whole debate would benefit from a more ‘hybrid’ position). Then subsequent posts respond with…

‘I forgot that past achievements and performances trump everything, and klopp is infallible, even after most of the forum questioning his transfer priorities for the last few years . Apologies’…

‘it's best to drop it because discussing football isn't the thing to do here apparently“…

And then bizarrely

…’I suppose, all in all it's a pointless discussion. It's either red tinted or negative fuckers. No nuance. No middle ground’

…What does my head in on this topic is that although us 'negative fuckers' always give him credit for how good he is when going forward, highlighting only his (completely obvious) deficiencies in defense, the TCDNW brigade always have a reason why he doesn't put as much into defending as he should... It's never his fault. It's simply not possible that he's not trying hard enough at the back. It's all obviously Jurgen's fault for not rebuilding the entire club around a uniquely talented passer of the ball who's simply not good enough to anchor an elite midfield unit. Such nonsense...

You’re doing the exact thing you’re accusing ‘the other side’ of doing…

For clarity, I’m arguing against the amateur psychologising of Trent’s attitude etc and asking for a little more context regards the flexibility of roles he’s played for the club, integral role in the club’s success and extreme demands upon a young player in both his rampaging RB role and current hybrid position. That’s not to say he can do no wrong or should be starting in CM, but simply to resist the potential scapegoating of him that seems to have become more entrenched in debates around him.

So nuance is exactly what I’m calling for.

 

[Fabio]

Jeez, why does everything have to end up so split all the time?

I ended my post with a paragraph highlighting how two viewpoints / facts do have to be ultimately mutually exclusive (and the whole debate would benefit from a more ‘hybrid’ position). Then subsequent posts respond with…

‘I forgot that past achievements and performances trump everything, and klopp is infallible, even after most of the forum questioning his transfer priorities for the last few years . Apologies’…

‘it's best to drop it because discussing football isn't the thing to do here apparently“…

And then bizarrely

…’I suppose, all in all it's a pointless discussion. It's either red tinted or negative fuckers. No nuance. No middle ground’

…What does my head in on this topic is that although us 'negative fuckers' always give him credit for how good he is when going forward, highlighting only his (completely obvious) deficiencies in defense, the TCDNW brigade always have a reason why he doesn't put as much into defending as he should... It's never his fault. It's simply not possible that he's not trying hard enough at the back. It's all obviously Jurgen's fault for not rebuilding the entire club around a uniquely talented passer of the ball who's simply not good enough to anchor an elite midfield unit. Such nonsense...

You’re doing the exact thing you’re accusing ‘the other side’ of doing…

For clarity, I’m arguing against the amateur psychologising of Trent’s attitude etc and asking for a little more context regards the flexibility of roles he’s played for the club, integral role in the club’s success and extreme demands upon a young player in both his rampaging RB role and current hybrid position. That’s not to say he can do no wrong or should be starting in CM, but simply to resist the potential scapegoating of him that seems to have become more entrenched in debates around him.

So nuance is exactly what I’m calling for.

for the first bit, I'm just doing what hansern has been parading around the forum doing. Making sly little digs for zero reason when i was just trying to discuss it. Then we have the crescendo of the piece were you go on about

A bunch of fans regularly finding fault (based on a feeling or pound shop psychological analysis)

. Its highlighting the need for digs rather that nuance. I'm well aware he's learning a new role, but why when he hadn't even got round to being very good in the old one? Lets just make trent 2 players to cover up for transfer mismanagement for years.

All i've done is highlighting glaring errors at club, management and player level. Here we have a 25 year old player (unless we're using the jesse lingard scale for age now), who hasn't kicked on from where he should have 4 years ago. My question is why. If we've burnt him out then thats on klopp. If trents become disenchanted then thats on him. I dont want klopp to build around a single player. I want a single player to become an integral part of the team and have everyone trust him in that position. How can you trust someone in a position if there's every chance they're somewhere else? Trent is not john stones. Stones is better at the part of the game trent needs to be good at to get away with the hybrid position.


It doesn't help trent coming and making statements saying he prefers to play midfield after being an attacking revelation in his former years.

You call for nuance, i've given it in this argument. I've given it in every argument over this. Other don't. Others disregard years of evidence and say they trust in klopp and thats enough. But you've come in at the end of it, when it's descended in to farce. I didn't bring it here.

 

[Fabio]

We've just spent the best part of 150M on three #8 type midfielders.

If the plan was the shift TAA into midfield, we've really gone about it the wrong way.

Exactly. And we still don't have midfield balance

 

[Fabio]

But i'm done with it now. There's little point. I have my view on what would have been best to do, you have yours. At the moment it's working.

 

[tombrown]

 

[rurikbird]

Is Trent the new Lucas?

 

[Buddha]

Is Trent the new Lucas?

Fuck, I hope not…(Lucas was a proper midfielder!)

 

[Hansern]

Is Trent the new Lucas?

Trent is the new Kvarme.

 

[Fabio]

I'd kill for lucas right now




come on little fishy

 

[Whaddapie]

For clarity, I’m arguing against the amateur psychologising of Trent’s attitude etc and asking for a little more context regards the flexibility of roles he’s played for the club, integral role in the club’s success and extreme demands upon a young player in both his rampaging RB role and current hybrid position. That’s not to say he can do no wrong or should be starting in CM, but simply to resist the potential scapegoating of him that seems to have become more entrenched in debates around him.

So nuance is exactly what I’m calling for.

Respectfully, what you dismiss as "amateur psychologizing", others view as merely pointing out what has becoming glaringly obvious to those who watch us regularly (including your good self)... Even when you call for a middle ground, you do not say 'yes, he's often muck at the back', or 'True, he doesn't seem to try as hard defending as he does attacking', you simply say that there's got to be a reason behind it.

This is what I'm talking about. I have plenty of time for a "your point is fair but also....." discussion, but we very rarely get that... We just get "Do you know better than Klopp?" type stuff and some excuses made for what is unmistakable to all but those who simply refuse to see it.

 

[Hansern]

Its mainly because you say things like "he doesnt seem to try as hard defending as he does attacking".
Knowing Klopp, the type of manager he is, what he looks for in his players and what is demanded of everyone in the team.
Do you think that would fly? No it wouldnt. So when you set the parameters for discussion at such a poor level - this is where we end up.

 

[Whaddapie]

Its mainly because you say things like "he doesnt seem to try as hard defending as he does attacking".
Knowing Klopp, the type of manager he is, what he looks for in his players and what is demanded of everyone in the team.
Do you think that would fly? No it wouldnt. So when you set the parameters for discussion at such a poor level - this is where we end up.

And Q.E.D.... Well in, mate.

 

[Hansern]

And Q.E.D.... Well in, mate.

Well, given that Trent statistically is pretty even when compared with the other right backs in the league defensively.
Like Walker, Trippier and James.

Do you think the other right backs dont try that hard as well, then?
If not, why do you demand something else and have a different opinion about Trent?