yoosi as the second striker

[Ryan]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35874.msg945644#msg945644 date=1253253597]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35874.msg945597#msg945597 date=1253244767]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35874.msg945069#msg945069 date=1253188214]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg944876#msg944876 date=1253178754]
[quote author=rage link=topic=35874.msg944861#msg944861 date=1253177378]
i'd rather see yossi there than dirk.
[/quote]

I wouldn't. kuyt is infinately more likely to score a goal or make something happen.
[/quote]

What a load of rubbish.

Based on what do you say this?

[/quote]

Based on the stats that show he scores more goals.
[/quote]

I think you need a lesson in maths if you think that that amount of goals = infinity.
[/quote]

^^^^^^
Dear fucking God.

I don't have the vocabulary to accurately describe how stupid you are.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35874.msg945651#msg945651 date=1253254388]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35874.msg945644#msg945644 date=1253253597]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35874.msg945597#msg945597 date=1253244767]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35874.msg945069#msg945069 date=1253188214]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg944876#msg944876 date=1253178754]
[quote author=rage link=topic=35874.msg944861#msg944861 date=1253177378]
i'd rather see yossi there than dirk.
[/quote]

I wouldn't. kuyt is infinately more likely to score a goal or make something happen.
[/quote]

What a load of rubbish.

Based on what do you say this?

[/quote]

Based on the stats that show he scores more goals.
[/quote]

I think you need a lesson in maths if you think that that amount of goals = infinity.
[/quote]

^^^^^^
Dear fucking God.

I don't have the vocabulary to accurately describe how stupid you are.
[/quote]

Well sure just stick in a few swear words.

That usually does you when your stuck in an arguement.

The point was that Kuyt infinately more likely to score than Yossi which is quiet simply bollox.

Argue all you like.

You may argue Kuyt may score more than Yossi over a year and even that based on game time and appearances would be a close call but to say the difference is that big is just plain wrong.

Your hatred of me is clouding your judgement on this one.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35874.msg945662#msg945662 date=1253255568]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35874.msg945651#msg945651 date=1253254388]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35874.msg945644#msg945644 date=1253253597]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35874.msg945597#msg945597 date=1253244767]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35874.msg945069#msg945069 date=1253188214]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg944876#msg944876 date=1253178754]
[quote author=rage link=topic=35874.msg944861#msg944861 date=1253177378]
i'd rather see yossi there than dirk.
[/quote]

I wouldn't. kuyt is infinately more likely to score a goal or make something happen.
[/quote]

What a load of rubbish.

Based on what do you say this?

[/quote]

Based on the stats that show he scores more goals.
[/quote]

I think you need a lesson in maths if you think that that amount of goals = infinity.
[/quote]

^^^^^^
Dear fucking God.

I don't have the vocabulary to accurately describe how stupid you are.
[/quote]

Well sure just stick in a few swear words.

That usually does you when your stuck in an arguement.

The point was that Kuyt infinately more likely to score than Yossi which is quiet simply bollox.

Argue all you like.

You may argue Kuyt may score more than Yossi over a year and even that based on game time and appearances would be a close call but to say the difference is that big is just plain wrong.

Your hatred of me is clouding your judgement on this one.
[/quote]

I don't hate you, I just think you're stupid.

Kuyt scores more goals from the right-wing than Benayoun. It's really that simple.

 

[mark1975]

This is a fucking pointless argument, really.

For the positions they play in supporting roles, they both get one in four, based on stats (which everyone seems to be putting great emphasis on) with Kuyt fairing slightly better.

One in four is a brilliant return and I'd wager it's probably the best in the Premiership (now) from those roles. But people trying to say that Kuyt's stats prove he's 'alot' more adept at it are dodging the fact that Kuyt has:

* Played alot more games from the start

* Played as an actual 'striker' in a fair percentage of those games.

I'm not knocking Kuyt because his goal return has been excellent for a while now and he's scored massively important goals too, but his stats aren't that much more impressive compared to Yossi's, when you consider Yossi has only really been a regular in this calendar year and has rarely played his favoured role.

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945426#msg945426 date=1253220907]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35874.msg945391#msg945391 date=1253217173]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945380#msg945380 date=1253215253]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35874.msg945311#msg945311 date=1253205558]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945054#msg945054 date=1253186892]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35874.msg945019#msg945019 date=1253184851]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945009#msg945009 date=1253184599]
another reason why I am a big advocate of gerrard playing further up the pitch is you will extend his playing career as he will run/work less than he would if he were in central midfield.
[/quote]

Playing him there *now* doesn't extend his shelf life, Neil.
[/quote]

what do you mean?
[/quote]

I don't think I can word it any simpler.
[/quote]

even if it extended his playing career by as little as three years that's still three years.
[/quote]

Er...

[/quote]

my point is in cental midfield you will work harder, run further and generally take more punishment, playing further forwards may extend gerrard's career and even if it's by a few years it would still be worth it.
[/quote]

Even if it's by a few years? As opposed to what, a decade or two?

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35874.msg945674#msg945674 date=1253258153]
This is a fucking pointless argument, really.

For the positions they play in supporting roles, they both get one in four, based on stats (which everyone seems to be putting great emphasis on) with Kuyt fairing slightly better.

One in four is a brilliant return and I'd wager it's probably the best in the Premiership (now) from those roles. But people trying to say that Kuyt's stats prove he's 'alot' more adept at it are dodging the fact that Kuyt has:

* Played alot more games from the start

* Played as an actual 'striker' in a fair percentage of those games.

I'm not knocking Kuyt because his goal return has been excellent for a while now and he's scored massively important goals too, but his stats aren't that much more impressive compared to Yossi's, when you consider Yossi has only really been a regular in this calendar year and has rarely played his favoured role.
[/quote]

Agreed. And, *on current form*, Yossi is clearly playing at a higher level than Kuyt. In fact, he's playing at a higher level than everyone else in the team. Whether that form will last remains to be seen, but he's been like this since the beginning of the year, more or less.

 

[keniget]

Kuyt got most of his goals playing as a striker last season. This season he's scored 2 / 3 when he's started up front as well. He may interchange with Yossi when they play, but the starting position is up front.

 

[spider-Neil]

anyone that thinks yossi would or could score more goals than kuyt over a full season is mad, mad I tell you.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945733#msg945733 date=1253265738]
anyone that thinks yossi would or could score more goals than kuyt over a full season is mad, mad I tell you.
[/quote]

Why? It's unproven.

I'm not suggesting he could, but people seem quick to quote stats. Statistically Kuyt has done marginally better than Yossi, with the benefit of starting (alot) more games and playing in a more advanced role as a striker, which apparently was the position he was bought for.

24% to 28%, hardly devastatingly conclusive.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35874.msg945739#msg945739 date=1253266044]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945733#msg945733 date=1253265738]
anyone that thinks yossi would or could score more goals than kuyt over a full season is mad, mad I tell you.
[/quote]

Why? It's unproven.

I'm not suggesting he could, but people seem quick to quote stats. Statistically Kuyt has done marginally better than Yossi, with the benefit of starting (alot) more games and playing in a more advanced role as a striker, which apparently was the position he was bought for.

24% to 28%, hardly devastatingly conclusive.
[/quote]

ah stats...

techically you have a player who scores a single goal in an entire season having played a single game and would have a goal a game ratio. consistantly kuyt has shown when used more often than not he will deliever the goods, there is a very good reason why he (rather than yossi) starts week in week out. I can say kuyt is more likely to score by virtue of him being more likely to play.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945743#msg945743 date=1253266343]
there is a very good reason why he (rather than yossi) starts week in week out. I can say kuyt is more likely to score by virtue of him being more likely to play.
[/quote]

Well it's a weak point then founded on the fact that Kuyt will play pretty much regardless of form, as has been proven time and time again.

Shame you don't take the same stance when talking about your beloved Babel, who has the constant fall back of 'plays in the wrong position', 'doesn't start enough games', 'doesn't get a decent enough run', 'doesn't have the love of the manager', blah blah.

Like I said, this isn't a playing down of Kuyt's abilities, more a point of sticking up for Yossi who's being painted ALOT paler in comparison than he should be.

Fuck it, I tell you what, there's no better form than present form. This is how they stand head to head, I'm not particularly overawed by the use of stats, but we're talking about stats because you're stating quite clearly that you think Kuyt will outscore Yossi. And by the impression you're giving, it seems you'll think he'll do it quite easily too, which is clearly a load of old bollocks.

I wonder if there's some underlying Babel-ism in there somewhere??

2009-2010

Apps/goals

Kuyt 6/3
Yossi 6/3

And as pointed out earlier when Yossi's 'shite' 3 hattricks were dismissed. Who has Kuyt ever scored a hattrick against?

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg944876#msg944876 date=1253178754]
[quote author=rage link=topic=35874.msg944861#msg944861 date=1253177378]
i'd rather see yossi there than dirk.
[/quote]

I wouldn't. kuyt is infinately more likely to score a goal or make something happen.
[/quote]

Just to compound my point, it's this kind of ridiculously over the top exaggeration that has riled me on this thread.

Stats might be neither here nor there and might not tell the whole story, but when someone makes a comment as outrageous as the above, it's difficult not to use them just to prove a point.

"Infinitely"?? Huh. Marginally more like.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35874.msg945754#msg945754 date=1253268146]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945743#msg945743 date=1253266343]
there is a very good reason why he (rather than yossi) starts week in week out. I can say kuyt is more likely to score by virtue of him being more likely to play.
[/quote]

Well it's a weak point then founded on the fact that Kuyt will play pretty much regardless of form, as has been proven time and time again.

Shame you don't take the same stance when talking about your beloved Babel, who has the constant fall back of 'plays in the wrong position', 'doesn't start enough games', 'doesn't get a decent enough run', 'doesn't have the love of the manager', blah blah.

Like I said, this isn't a playing down of Kuyt's abilities, more a point of sticking up for Yossi who's being painted ALOT paler in comparison than he should be.

Fuck it, I tell you what, there's no better form than present form. This is how they stand head to head, I'm not particularly overawed by the use of stats, but we're talking about stats because you're stating quite clearly that you think Kuyt will outscore Yossi. And by the impression you're giving, it seems you'll think he'll do it quite easily too, which is clearly a load of old bollocks.

I wonder if there's some underlying Babel-ism in there somewhere??

2009-2010

Apps/goals

Kuyt 6/3
Yossi 6/3

And as pointed out earlier when Yossi's 'shite' 3 hattricks were dismissed. Who has Kuyt ever scored a hattrick against?





[/quote]

I've pretty much established that I defend babel now for no other reason other than he favorite of mine and favorites down have to be any good read igor, smicer etc
kuyt hasn't scored any hattricks against pub teams but he HAS goal crucial goals at crucial times I know which one I would rather have. having said that if you don't have a 'flat track bully' you are going to struggle to win the league as there are more shit teams than good teams.

each to their own but I pick kuyt every time as you know what you are going to get whether he is in form or not yossi can at best be described as erratic, people can call him consistant if they choose but simply he has been in and out of the side having not been trusted to start week in week out, betcha he doesn't start at the weekend.

 

[Squiggles]

And what about Yossi's goal against Madrid? What's that?

 

[mark1975]

That doesn't equate to him being 'infinitely' more likely to score a goal or make something happen.

And regards Yossi being in the side on Saturday, Yossi has to compete with the small matter of Steven Gerrard, to play his favoured role. Who does Kuyt have to compete with?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35874.msg945781#msg945781 date=1253270536]
And what about Yossi's goal against Madrid? What's that?

[/quote]

that was 'A' big goal you can add the fulham goal as well.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35874.msg945784#msg945784 date=1253270719]
That doesn't equate to him being 'infinitely' more likely to score a goal or make something happen.

And regards Yossi being in the side on Saturday, Yossi has to compete with the small matter of Steven Gerrard, to play his favoured role. Who does Kuyt have to compete with?
[/quote]

jeez! okay I'll demote the word 'infinately' with 'probably' simply put though he IS more likely to score or make something happen that why when the big games roll around kuyt will DEFINATELY start where as yossi 'MAY' start. no argument with that last sentence, surely?

 

[keniget]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945777#msg945777 date=1253270442]
each to their own but I pick kuyt every time as you know what you are going to get whether he is in form or not yossi can at best be described as erratic, people can call him consistant if they choose but simply he has been in and out of the side having not been trusted to start week in week out, betcha he doesn't start at the weekend.
[/quote]]

Kuyt started to show us real consistency not long before Yossi started doing the same. Prior to that, yeah we knew we were going to get 110% effort every match, but whether or not Kuyt was going to be able to trap a ball in those 90mins was anybodys guess.

The main thing in Kuyt's favour is that you'll never forget he's on the pitch. We need players who can make their presence felt and Kuyt more or less guarantees that week in, week out. That's why I'm not in favour of dropping him these days. The whole goals / assists argument is fucking absurd though.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945788#msg945788 date=1253270924]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35874.msg945784#msg945784 date=1253270719]
That doesn't equate to him being 'infinitely' more likely to score a goal or make something happen.

And regards Yossi being in the side on Saturday, Yossi has to compete with the small matter of Steven Gerrard, to play his favoured role. Who does Kuyt have to compete with?
[/quote]

jeez! okay I'll demote the word 'infinately' with 'probably' simply put though he IS more likely to score or make something happen that why when the big games roll around kuyt will DEFINATELY start where as yossi 'MAY' start. no argument with that last sentence, surely?
[/quote]

No there isn't, but you've once again failed to acknowledge the point that he has no one to compete with whereas Yossi is competing with STEVEN FUCKING GERRARD! Surely that's a factor as to whether on will pay more than the other??! Kuyt's had the benefit of having the right side to call his own with NO competitor to deal with. Yossi's had to come in much of the time and fill in everywhere but his favoured role, usually in areas where other players are competing heavily or more expensive/recent players have been bought. Ideally he'd be playing in the hole, but he rarely can because we have one of the best players in the World playing there!

As Keni said, it's his graft that's his most endearing quality and the main reason he's picked everyweek, the goals argument is just fucking ludicrous, and inaccurate.

 

[TheBunnyman]

I'll be disappointed and annoyed if Yossi doesn't start against West Ham. He's been easily our best player so far this season, so it would be stupid to drop him - especially against his old club.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35874.msg945793#msg945793 date=1253271220]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945788#msg945788 date=1253270924]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35874.msg945784#msg945784 date=1253270719]
That doesn't equate to him being 'infinitely' more likely to score a goal or make something happen.

And regards Yossi being in the side on Saturday, Yossi has to compete with the small matter of Steven Gerrard, to play his favoured role. Who does Kuyt have to compete with?
[/quote]

jeez! okay I'll demote the word 'infinately' with 'probably' simply put though he IS more likely to score or make something happen that why when the big games roll around kuyt will DEFINATELY start where as yossi 'MAY' start. no argument with that last sentence, surely?
[/quote]

No there isn't, but you've once again failed to acknowledge the point that he has no one to compete with whereas Yossi is competing with STEVEN FUCKING GERRARD! Surely that's a factor as to whether on will pay more than the other??! Kuyt's had the benefit of having the right side to call his own with NO competitor to deal with. Yossi's had to come in much of the time and fill in everywhere but his favoured role, usually in areas where other players are competing heavily or more expensive/recent players have been bought. Ideally he'd be playing in the hole, but he rarely can because we have one of the best players in the World playing there!

As Keni said, it's his graft that's his most endearing quality and the main reason he's picked everyweek, the goals argument is just fucking ludicrous, and inaccurate.
[/quote]

oh, I factor in yossi competing for gerrard's position and to a lesser extent kuyt two absolutely NAILED ON started. not fair maybe, but it is what it is.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35874.msg945771#msg945771 date=1253269292]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg944876#msg944876 date=1253178754]
[quote author=rage link=topic=35874.msg944861#msg944861 date=1253177378]
i'd rather see yossi there than dirk.
[/quote]

I wouldn't. kuyt is infinately more likely to score a goal or make something happen.
[/quote]

Just to compound my point, it's this kind of ridiculously over the top exaggeration that has riled me on this thread.

Stats might be neither here nor there and might not tell the whole story, but when someone makes a comment as outrageous as the above, it's difficult not to use them just to prove a point.

"Infinitely"?? Huh. Marginally more like.
[/quote]

Exactly my point and that is what I was debating. It's a crazy statement.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35874.msg945786#msg945786 date=1253270774]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35874.msg945781#msg945781 date=1253270536]
And what about Yossi's goal against Madrid? What's that?

[/quote]

that was 'A' big goal you can add the fulham goal as well.
[/quote]

Blackburn?

 

[rage]

yossi will be a permanent fixture until at least when aquaman starts.

he'll either start with gerrard in the middle alongside masch or get 20 minutes as a sub

i'm convinced that after seeing the value of a gerrard - masch/lucas midfield partnership rafa will see sense.

masch and lucas together in centre mid are awful.

my only criticism of yossi playing at the moment is why rafa sometimes stick him on the right. dirk should always play there and yossi should play behind torres where he is more effective than dirk.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=rage link=topic=35874.msg946171#msg946171 date=1253356237]
yossi will be a permanent fixture until at least when aquaman starts.

[/quote]

'WILL'?
if he doesn't start today I wont be in the least bit surprised.

 

[Squiggles]

Yossi should be guaranteed starter at the minute.

That's all there is to it.

 

[Judge Jules]

I agree with that, but I think neil's point is more about whether he will start than about whether he should.

 

[Squiggles]

Alright, then I'd be amazed if he doesn't start.

He's undroppable at the minute - 99% of managers would see that.