Drawing conclusions about our 'season' four games into it is beyond stupid. Sorry, but it is.
Worst start to a season for 100 years ?
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Drawing conclusions about our 'season' four games into it is beyond stupid. Sorry, but it is.
When does the start of the season officially end?
But it's a leap year
I knew it was after Halloween but i didnt think it lasted that long.
To prove my point I can mention that Capello won Serie A 7 times, La Liga two times (He has been there only two seasons) as well as winning CL and getting to another 2 finals there. So he is consistant enough. You can't argue about Mourinhos consitant winner mentality either winning championships in 4 countries as well as winnig CL with 2 different clubs. I don't know what it takes to convince you, but I bet you that these two guys at least are convinced about their own style and methods as coaches. Mourinho's teams has i.e. for a decade now been supreme in pressing the oppsotion and make life difficult for them. Is that defensive or attacking? Does it really matter?
And there is the point. You can win with several different methods and several different styles. Each coach has his path of gold and will try to stick to it. I don't know if Rodgers has a winning mentality or a golden style, as we have yet to see any result of it at any level. But it is extremelly ambitious to keep possession. it is even more ambitious to keep possesion to a part that you will start to penetrate opposition defences with it. And top it with keeping possession in England, were the opposition is normally pressing much tougher than i.e. in Spain and Italy. To succeed here you will need exceptional good players. To succeed they must dare to allways seek the narrowest patches on the field, and get the triangles set up within these. This is the only way to penetrate strong defences. Passing the ball around the midfield is not very attractive at all, and damw easy to defend against.
You have to adjust your squad to fit your style. So far we have spent a summer weakening our squad dramatically. Does it go hand in hand with ambitions of CL or does it match claims "we have resources to compete with anyone"? Absolutely not, we have faced a huge set back. It doesn't mean that we will never catch up again, but it certainly doesn't guarantee it either. We have no clue how Rodgers socalled tikitaxa style will work in the long run, and we don't know if we even survive this years PL. We might come out stronger in the end, but there is also a distance chance that we will face an even bigger setback, if we end up around 13-16 place this season.
I don't see them as conclusions Del to be honest and most of them are fair comments on what we've seen to date
I don't agree. Particularly with respect to the post I quoted when I wrote that.
What are the bits you disagree with ? Other than the bit that we're not creating chances (we still are) what comments do you find incorrect ?
These are not conclussions but debatable observations.
My conclussions after the first league games are easy:
- We have a weaker squad than last season
- We have grown a bad pattern of allowing sloppy mistake to cost us.
- We have fewer points than deserved.
- We have no clear plan on how to change games if we fall behind.
- We have potential a better group of youngsters than I was aware about.
- We have not solved the golascoring problem.
- We don't look dangerous from set pieces this season either.
- This system thing will take time.
My conclussions after the first league games are easy:
- We have a weaker squad than last season
- We have grown a bad pattern of allowing sloppy mistake to cost us.
- We have fewer points than deserved.
- We have no clear plan on how to change games if we fall behind.
- We have potential a better group of youngsters than I was aware about.
- We have not solved the golascoring problem.
- We don't look dangerous from set pieces this season either.
- This system thing will take time.
thanks for cheering me up. sad but true.
I don't think it's particularly Rodgers fault we have a weaker squad. It's debatable whether we do anyway, the big sticking point is Carroll going and leaving us short, the rest wanted to go more or less, Maxi, Kuyt and Bellamy did anyway. Sterling has replaced one of them, and given you only got about 8 good, fit games from Bellamy and indifferent form in the end from Maxi and Kuyt, he's arguably come in as the week in, week out winger we've waited decades for. If a couple of the other kids can step up (given the quality in the reserves, it's not unfeasible) then we could even be better off. The squad is more or less the same but we've shot ourselves in the foot abit upfront, let's not pretend Carroll made a great difference though. There's no catastrophic difference from last year, we just might have a couple of players on our hands who are fitter and more hungry for it.
The rest of the points are easily debated, it's all too early to be reading too much into things. Maybe the warning signs are there in some respects, but we've started many seasons over the last decade sluggish in defense and eventually grown into one of the meanest defenses in the league. Of course there are concerns though which can rightfully be debated, but by and large there are alot of factors hampering us and it'll take time to adjust.
Ok Sunny. If you insist.
Honestly, the amount of arm-flapping going on around here these days, it's a wonder people don't take off.
Good post Del.
I cant wait for the 26th November
So You basically say you agree on all observation, but then again dismiss these observations to be true as it is only early days and the tide can change.
I agree, it might change, and it has to change! It is no guarantee that it will change, and the observations so far doesn't look promissing.
Yes the defence could sharpen up and stop giving away goals. it is still an alarming observation that we have lost valuable points in all games so far due to defensive howlers. If it is sloppyness alone it has to be adressed. if it is due to the defence is not protected well enough from midfield it has to be adressed. I honestly don't think it is due to the system alone, but we still have to adress it? Or should we just dismiss it as being 4 games into the season and nothing to worry about as it might solve itself?
An average possession of 55% or so shows that we can keep the ball. I am not looking for percentages, but it is allways a good feeling keeping the ball. It means you don't have to chase it and it saves you a lot of energy.It is still what you do with the ball that matters. Rolling it around along the centre line will not worry anyone. And yes, things take time, but brushing lack of pressure on oppositions so far by that we still have 34 games to do it is meaningless. From when are we supposed to do it?
I know that scoring is down to many things. Self confidence is a major one. But when looking at last seasons freak show of missing clear cut chances and looking at half decent opportunities this season, which very often comes from shots from outside the box we have a way to go. Creating clearcut chances with a packed box is the way to start scoring. We need to adress that issue, 4 games only or not. Having midfielders scared of attacking the box, with wingers luring to wide is not helping us. And if we don't look into it we will not score often enough in the next 34 games either.
And then to your contradictions:
1 - I clearly express "I expected us to start weak" - Where you answers: "We've only played four games. Exactly what were you (or anybody else) expecting in such a short space of time?". So I repeat "I expted us to start weak". it is a new and weaker squad so I didn't expect much from the start of the season. . What is it about that you didn't understand?
2- I clearly says: "I would be extremely surprised if we even got near top 4" - Where you answers: "To have any chance of qualifying for the Champions League, we would have needed to spend a small fortune, similar to the amount Kenny and Comolli frittered away last season. That was never going to happen, and anyone expecting it was kidding themselves. Let's face it, our opportunity to leapfrog ourselves back into the top four was spurned". So you actually agree with that one also.
So all in all you write a long patronizing answer only to point out that you agree with me? Wow...
I agree. I don't blame Rodgers for the weakend squad at all. And I also agree that the major gap in the squad is Andy.
I guess what we see here is the moneyball in practice, and I think it is sound to have hungry young players in with a huge potential, rather than overpaid satisfied ones who will potentially turn up for one or two big games. However, there is a need for balance. And Raheem will not do his stepovers for 56 games a season. He is to young, to petite and more raw material for that. If we get 25-30 good games out of him we should be more than happy.
But the younger ones need role models to learn from. And there maybe could Maxi and Kuyt or at least one of them been the correct player (much rather than i.e. Downing).
Saying that we should be well covered in defence, and with Lucas coming back we will be more than covered centrally (which was a weak position 4 months ago). The trick is always to attack and score goals, and we can only hope we have a diamond or two shining somewhere. Maybe we know more after tonight?
No, I challenged most of what you had to say, as evidenced by your omissions below.
The overriding point, which was pretty clear from my first post in this thread and which still seems to be evading you, was that the timing and nature of your "observations", is ridiculous. You say that you are stating them for the purpose of discussion, but I think you are betrayed by your whining tone. It's not an observation, it's a complaint, and not only is it premature, but it's completely lacking in perspective. The manager has barely got in the door, and you're whinging about the direction we're going in, and comparing 4 games this season, to 38 games last season. It seems to me that because you aren't familiar with some of the players we've signed, that they'll automatically deemed as failures. Who knows, in nine months time, I may be partnering you in a tag-team, taking it in turns to lay into our failing manager and his shitty signings, but I think they deserve a chance to prove themselves before we write them off altogether.
You may find me patronizing, but that's because I find what you're saying so utterly absurd, and have obviously failed to suspend my disbelief. Sorry about that.
Well, I insisted on fuck all actually and I dont see any arms flapping but carry on suggesting people are being hysterical if you want. Anyway, we've played 8 games including Europa. As for direction, yep it's too soon to make calls on that but it is a fair comment to say we'll not be anywhere near the top 4 and it will be surprising if we are. The defence is looking susceptible at times this season compounded by Reinas poor form. Whether you can attribute it to getting used to a new system or not it's not an unfair comment to say we look shaky at the back so far.
Finishing is still poor. We're agreed on that. Expect a u-turn in four games ? No. I expected a strengthening in a key area of weakness though. That area has been weakened if anything. That's not a positive sign for me but neither do I hold BR wholly to blame for that. As for the 'plan B' debate - why does that have to involve Carroll ? For me, it's about a complete lack of squad depth and talent on the bench. That will take time to put right. Cutting costs is right and yes we need better value for money - we've had far too much overpaid shite for years. When you cut costs as a business you tend to protect yourself from any degradation in performance at the same time. I don't think we've done that. I do doubt the ambitions, acumen and capabilities of our owners - I'm entitled do do that.
These are just observations and my opinion Del. I'm not panicking in the slightest at the moment. I don't expect everyone to agree with them nor would I start labelling people stupid, foolish or absurd who don't agree either.
I was addressing Insig's post specifically Sunny. I never attributed anything to you, because yours are rational assessments, with an eye on the bigger picture. Insig's weren't, and he's been banging his little doomsday drum pretty much since the season started. My opening post was admittedly unhelpful, but it's just been irking me is all.
I think we largely agree on many points, although I'm not as suspicious of the owners as you are. As for the degradation in performance as a result of our cost cutting, as I've said from the start, I think it's far too early to say. We've not started well, but I don't think, say, 6th is out of the question, which would obviously be an improvement on last season. Let's face it, we really don't have to do anything remarkable to achieve that, so to write us off at this stage is a bit hyperbolic, in my opinion.
And in fairness, I haven't labelled anybody anything. I don't like to resort to name-calling. I was careful to highlight the specific points I disagreed with, and critique them. If I think something is absurd, I'm entitled to say that. It's just an observation and my opinion, and everybody else is free to disagree with it, and offer their own critique if they wish. Besides, I think Insig is pretty thick-skinned anyway.
I think we largely agree on many points, although I'm not as suspicious of the owners as you are. As for the degradation in performance as a result of our cost cutting, as I've said from the start, I think it's far too early to say. We've not started well, but I don't think, say, 6th is out of the question, which would obviously be an improvement on last season. Let's face it, we really don't have to do anything remarkable to achieve that, so to write us off at this stage is a bit hyperbolic, in my opinion.
And in fairness, I haven't labelled anybody anything. I don't like to resort to name-calling. I was careful to highlight the specific points I disagreed with, and critique them. If I think something is absurd, I'm entitled to say that. It's just an observation and my opinion, and everybody else is free to disagree with it, and offer their own critique if they wish. Besides, I think Insig is pretty thick-skinned anyway.
And within 30 secs of that post we concede another
Difficult to disagree with that!
I am not whining or drumming on about things. I am not even angry. I am actually quite calm about it. That doesn't prevent me from making a few observations.
A- No system in the world can cope with giving away goals for free, and we have done it to many times already this season. It is not a system failure it is personally sloppiness, and that can and must be adressed.
B- passing the ball around is not attractive enough. We have to put more pressure on the opposition.
My conclussion still stands. i don't believe we are up for a top 4 fight.
I guess I would have been irritated if the owners and management came out saying we would have to adjust our ambitions and take a few seasons around mid table. if that was the aim we could just as well have stuck around with Moores. I don't see the need for new owners if there is no gain... During Moores we played CL footie and competed on a higher level than we do now. The double idiots set us back, and FSG are said to "learn" the game now. But there is no guarantee that the direction we take now will get us anywahere. Of course we hope it will, but a bit more help from owners would definately be appreciated. Not much. A Falcao or similar is all we ask for.
A- No system in the world can cope with giving away goals for free, and we have done it to many times already this season. It is not a system failure it is personally sloppiness, and that can and must be adressed.
B- passing the ball around is not attractive enough. We have to put more pressure on the opposition.
My conclussion still stands. i don't believe we are up for a top 4 fight.
I guess I would have been irritated if the owners and management came out saying we would have to adjust our ambitions and take a few seasons around mid table. if that was the aim we could just as well have stuck around with Moores. I don't see the need for new owners if there is no gain... During Moores we played CL footie and competed on a higher level than we do now. The double idiots set us back, and FSG are said to "learn" the game now. But there is no guarantee that the direction we take now will get us anywahere. Of course we hope it will, but a bit more help from owners would definately be appreciated. Not much. A Falcao or similar is all we ask for.
Your "conclusion" is nonsense, because any conclusion after just four games is nonsense. So is blethering on about Moores, who had a decade and a half in which to take the club back to the top and never came close to managing it. Yes, we're taking a risk to try and get back there now. If you want certainty, I'll give you certainty - without taking such a risk, we'll never make it.
Sorry. I had no intention of making it a Moores debate. It was just an example. Though I must say you are harsh when you say we were far away from the top. We had good years in CL and I honestly miss that.
Yeah we are taking a risk. And we are probably doing the right thing as I suspect our finances weren't the very best, so we had to adjust the cost level to the world we are living in. And I strongly believe we can reach the top without buying overpriced mediocre players. That is an area we have been experts in for too many years. However we have to have some leading stars to rely on too. I don't believe Sterling, Shelvey and Borini will shoot us to CL - yet.
To me it was a big blow that we lost attacking firepower in the closing stage of the transfer window. I don't mind that FSG didn't want to be screwed on the last day, so I fully accpet the situation. But accepting the situation is also accepting that we will not fight in the very top this year. Being outplayed by WBA and loosing points to Sunderland goes far to show this. Can we beat United? Of course, but we can also loose points to Villa, Wigan and Reading. We have a long way to go. I don't take for granted that everyone want to go this way with us if it is too long. I don't take for granted that the most exciting players want to join us either if it takes too long. Hence we have to better than everyone else in recruiting. But starting to expect this young squad to qualify for CL is unfair to them, hence I don't expect it.
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