Wingers

[Paddy]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166549#msg1166549 date=1283197522]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=41677.msg1166542#msg1166542 date=1283197207]
Back on Koptalk, Neil made clear and concise sentences.

Now I cant make sense out of any of them. It doesn't take that much effort.
[/quote]

fair enough, which bit didn't you understand, I'll do my best to explain myself better.
simply put though, I think a fullback should be judged on their ability to get forwards as well as defend.
[/quote]

It just looks jumbled up the whole time. Use capitals too.

Normally I agree with you on a lot of football issues. Just not the fullbacks debate.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Paddy link=topic=41677.msg1166553#msg1166553 date=1283197657]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166549#msg1166549 date=1283197522]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=41677.msg1166542#msg1166542 date=1283197207]
Back on Koptalk, Neil made clear and concise sentences.

Now I cant make sense out of any of them. It doesn't take that much effort.
[/quote]

fair enough, which bit didn't you understand, I'll do my best to explain myself better.
simply put though, I think a fullback should be judged on their ability to get forwards as well as defend.
[/quote]

It just looks jumbled up the whole time. Use capitals too.

Normally I agree with you on a lot of football issues. Just not the fullbacks debate.
[/quote]

the lack of capitals is laziness, also my keyboard is screwed.
as for the fullback issue, I can see why many if not all of the board disagree with me but to me it's all about balance, if we had the best attacking wide players in the league then I would have absolutely no problem whatsoever with fullbacks that didn't contribute in an attacking sense, we don't, and haven't had for years, so fullacks bursting from deep is an absolute must and that's how I judge them.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Paddy link=topic=41677.msg1166542#msg1166542 date=1283197207]
Back on Koptalk, Neil made clear and concise sentences.

Now I cant make sense out of any of them. It doesn't take that much effort.
[/quote]

Yep.

I thought there must have been two Spiderneil's because back on Koptalk, I understood everything he said and agreed with 95% of what he posted. He also wasn't afraid to post a controversial opinion (Hamann, Owen) with good reason for his view.

On SCM, we've got a Spiderneil Lite version.

Neil, if you were indeed the same person, please Sort.It.Out.

 

[manwithnoname]

What hamann and owen shite did you agree with?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41677.msg1166595#msg1166595 date=1283200748]
What hamann and owen shite did you agree with?
[/quote]

I said hamman needs to support the attack more because our wide players aand I said owen is injury prone would fuck us over so we should sell while his stock is high.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166593#msg1166593 date=1283200641]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=41677.msg1166542#msg1166542 date=1283197207]
Back on Koptalk, Neil made clear and concise sentences.

Now I cant make sense out of any of them. It doesn't take that much effort.
[/quote]

Yep.

I thought there must have been two Spiderneil's because back on Koptalk, I understood everything he said and agreed with 95% of what he posted. He also wasn't afraid to post a controversial opinion (Hamann, Owen) with good reason for his view.

On SCM, we've got a Spiderneil Lite version.

Neil, if you were indeed the same person, please Sort.It.Out.
[/quote]

I'm the same person. I'll admit I'm taking a lot less care with my posts due to laziness, no exuse for it.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41677.msg1166595#msg1166595 date=1283200748]
What hamann and owen shite did you agree with?
[/quote]

Owen = I remember Neil suggesting that a deal of Eto'o + 10m cash was a good one considering the circumstances with Real. This was when he was on loan to Mallorca, before his move to Barca. Eto'o was unproven but I agreed that he had all the tools and in the end, he's turned out to be quite the goalscorer.

Hamann = *The gist of it was* Whilst Didi was a good player, we'd be better served with a more balanced midfielder (who contributed going forward) than a such specialist defensive midfielder => this is a view that may have turned out to be wrong (but at the time I agreed with Spider), as Didi proved to be a great player whom we'd all die for today, given the bunch of plodders we now have patrolling the centre of midfield. C'est la vie.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41677.msg1166595#msg1166595 date=1283200748]
What hamann and owen shite did you agree with?
[/quote]

my opinion of owen hasn't changed on iota, I said he is injury prone and we should sell while his stock is high.

in the case of hamman I always said he is an excellent holding midfield but wish he supported the attack more. didi is easily one of the best holding midfielders we've ever had and I 'said' that at the time, why people got the impression I disliked him I'll never know, put it this way I think didi was a far superior holding midfielder than mascherano.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166612#msg1166612 date=1283201373]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41677.msg1166595#msg1166595 date=1283200748]
What hamann and owen shite did you agree with?
[/quote]

Owen = I remember Neil suggesting that a deal of Eto'o + 10m cash was a good one considering the circumstances with Real. This was when he was on loan to Mallorca, before his move to Barca. Eto'o was unproven but I agreed that he had all the tools and in the end, he's turned out to be quite the goalscorer.

Hamann = *The gist of it was* Whilst Didi was a good player, we'd be better served with a more balanced midfielder (who contributed going forward) than a such specialist defensive midfielder => this is a view that may have turned out to be wrong (but at the time I agreed with Spider), as Didi proved to be a great player whom we'd all die for today, given the bunch of plodders we now have patrolling the centre of midfield. C'est la vie.
[/quote]

you have a seriously good memory, I did indeed say all of that.

 

[monsieurdantes]

hahah you're like an old horse that's seen better days. getting all nostalgic over your past glories before the inevitable happens and nature takes its course

 

[Fabio]

Fullbacks should defend, winger should attack. I think we've grown mildly accustomed to fullbacks who attack and wingers who defend over the last couple of years.

Don't get me wrong, the occasional charge upfield is great, as long as their defensive abilities are up to the risk they're opening the back line to. E.g. Evra and cole, both great at bombing forward, but both great getting back if the ball is lost.

So ideally, i'd like world class fullbacks apparantly.............sound

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=41677.msg1166629#msg1166629 date=1283201972]
Fullbacks should defend, winger should attack. I think we've grown mildly accustomed to fullbacks who attack and wingers who defend over the last couple of years.

Don't get me wrong, the occasional charge upfield is great, as long as their defensive abilities are up to the risk they're opening the back line to. E.g. Evra and cole, both great at bombing forward, but both great getting back if the ball is lost.

So ideally, i'd like world class fullbacks apparantly.............sound
[/quote]

our entire makeup is geared towards fullbacks that get forwards

* we utilise TWO holding midfielders - to fill in the gaps fullbacks leave when they move forwards

* we have wide midfielders who more offer protection than most wide midfielders in the league

the question is why SHOULDN'T our fullbacks get forwards? as I said when we get world class wide attackers if the fullbacks want to defend deep more power to them, we don't have such wingers and haven't had any wide player of class for a decade.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166549#msg1166549 date=1283197522]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=41677.msg1166542#msg1166542 date=1283197207]
Back on Koptalk, Neil made clear and concise sentences.

Now I cant make sense out of any of them. It doesn't take that much effort.
[/quote]

fair enough, which bit didn't you understand, I'll do my best to explain myself better.
simply put though, I think a fullback should be judged on their ability to get forwards as well as defend.
[/quote]

I actually think you're right about that, but the ability to get forward cannnot be at the expense of defensive ability.

It's aslo likely that the number of fullbacks who are equally adept at both is very very small; in that event, don't you think it would make more sense to actually focus on players who are very skilled in their individual attacking OR defensive positions?

 

[Rosco]

Because they need to defend ?

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=41677.msg1166628#msg1166628 date=1283201912]
hahah you're like an old horse that's seen better days. getting all nostalgic over your past glories before the inevitable happens and nature takes its course
[/quote]

Hahaha. Good analogy.

I think Spider needs to just to take a step back with his posts. He was never such a high volume poster on Koptalk. It was quality over quantity.

Not sure what's changed over recent years. Maybe it's the "Rafa effect". You know, where you start off quite reserved, classy and humble.. and then by the end of the "5 year plan", you to turn into an outspoken, confrontational, quacking looney.

 

[Wilko7]

Wasn't Spidey a mod on Koptalk?

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166636#msg1166636 date=1283202448]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=41677.msg1166629#msg1166629 date=1283201972]
Fullbacks should defend, winger should attack. I think we've grown mildly accustomed to fullbacks who attack and wingers who defend over the last couple of years.

Don't get me wrong, the occasional charge upfield is great, as long as their defensive abilities are up to the risk they're opening the back line to. E.g. Evra and cole, both great at bombing forward, but both great getting back if the ball is lost.

So ideally, i'd like world class fullbacks apparantly.............sound
[/quote]

our entire makeup is geared towards fullbacks that get forwards

* we utilise TWO holding midfielders - to fill in the gaps fullbacks leave when they move forwards

* we have wide midfielders who more offer protection than most wide midfielders in the league

the question is why SHOULDN'T our fullbacks get forwards? as I said when we get world class wide attackers if the fullbacks want to defend deep more power to them, we don't have such wingers and haven't had any wide player of class for a decade.
[/quote]

I think the solution is we just need better wide players. The full backs we have aren't capable of doing what you've been suggesting anyway. Asking Insua to get forward at every opportunity is just like asking Dirk Kuyt to run fast. It's just not possible.

And the whole thing about 2 defensive midfielders covering space is just a Rafa ideology that I really hope we move on from. He based his whole gameplan around a "unit" that often fell apart if one player was missing from that unit (or we conceded the first goal). We need players who just influential in their own right, and aren't reliant on *said player* to back them up.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166639#msg1166639 date=1283202501]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=41677.msg1166628#msg1166628 date=1283201912]
hahah you're like an old horse that's seen better days. getting all nostalgic over your past glories before the inevitable happens and nature takes its course
[/quote]

Hahaha. Good analogy.

I think Spider needs to just to take a step back with his posts. He was never such a high volume poster on Koptalk. It was quality over quantity.

Not sure what's changed over recent years. Maybe it's the "Rafa effect". You know, where you start off quite reserved, classy and humble.. and then by the end of the "5 year plan", you to turn into an outspoken, confrontational, quacking looney.
[/quote]

the frequency of the post is the result of seeing more and more wrong with the team, the stuff I've seen recently in the team borders on idiocy, like roy's tactics v man city, a two man central midfield v a three man central midfield, seriously, what the FUCK?!

 

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=Wilko link=topic=41677.msg1166649#msg1166649 date=1283202781]
Wasn't Spidey a mod on Koptalk?
[/quote]

Probably. I think most members were made mod at one point, they had to simply to enforce the stupid strike system.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41677.msg1166638#msg1166638 date=1283202489]
Because they need to defend ?
[/quote]

Well, yeah.

Attackers attacking defenders defending 8) ;D

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166652#msg1166652 date=1283202874]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166636#msg1166636 date=1283202448]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=41677.msg1166629#msg1166629 date=1283201972]
Fullbacks should defend, winger should attack. I think we've grown mildly accustomed to fullbacks who attack and wingers who defend over the last couple of years.

Don't get me wrong, the occasional charge upfield is great, as long as their defensive abilities are up to the risk they're opening the back line to. E.g. Evra and cole, both great at bombing forward, but both great getting back if the ball is lost.

So ideally, i'd like world class fullbacks apparantly.............sound
[/quote]

our entire makeup is geared towards fullbacks that get forwards

* we utilise TWO holding midfielders - to fill in the gaps fullbacks leave when they move forwards

* we have wide midfielders who more offer protection than most wide midfielders in the league

the question is why SHOULDN'T our fullbacks get forwards? as I said when we get world class wide attackers if the fullbacks want to defend deep more power to them, we don't have such wingers and haven't had any wide player of class for a decade.
[/quote]

I think the solution is we just need better wide players. The full backs we have aren't capable of doing what you've been suggesting anyway. Asking Insua to get forward at every opportunity is just like asking Dirk Kuyt to run fast. It's just not possible.

And the whole thing about 2 defensive midfielders covering space is just a Rafa ideology that I really hope we move on from. He based his whole gameplan around a "unit" that fell apart if one player was missing from that unit. We need players who just influential in their own right, and aren't reliant on *said player* to back them up.
[/quote]

correct

we need to play this way now due to lack of personnel, however this isn't a good ideology. It needs to change. Why do we need wingers who are central? Full backs will NEVER be as good in attacking positions than wingers. Using full backs for width is bizarre and no other team relies on full backs for their wing play

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41677.msg1166656#msg1166656 date=1283202989]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41677.msg1166638#msg1166638 date=1283202489]
Because they need to defend ?
[/quote]

Well, yeah.

Attackers attacking defenders defending 8) ;D
[/quote]

Revolutionary thinking.

It might just work though

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166652#msg1166652 date=1283202874]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166636#msg1166636 date=1283202448]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=41677.msg1166629#msg1166629 date=1283201972]
Fullbacks should defend, winger should attack. I think we've grown mildly accustomed to fullbacks who attack and wingers who defend over the last couple of years.

Don't get me wrong, the occasional charge upfield is great, as long as their defensive abilities are up to the risk they're opening the back line to. E.g. Evra and cole, both great at bombing forward, but both great getting back if the ball is lost.

So ideally, i'd like world class fullbacks apparantly.............sound
[/quote]

our entire makeup is geared towards fullbacks that get forwards

* we utilise TWO holding midfielders - to fill in the gaps fullbacks leave when they move forwards

* we have wide midfielders who more offer protection than most wide midfielders in the league

the question is why SHOULDN'T our fullbacks get forwards? as I said when we get world class wide attackers if the fullbacks want to defend deep more power to them, we don't have such wingers and haven't had any wide player of class for a decade.
[/quote]

I think the solution is we just need better wide players. The full backs we have aren't capable of doing what you've been suggesting anyway. Asking Insua to get forward at every opportunity is just like asking Dirk Kuyt to run fast. It's just not possible.

And the whole thing about 2 defensive midfielders covering space is just a Rafa ideology that I really hope we move on from. He based his whole gameplan around a "unit" that often fell apart if one player was missing from that unit (or we conceded the first goal). We need players who just influential in their own right, and aren't reliant on *said player* to back them up.
[/quote]

two holding midfielders is a good tactic when the players are xabi and mascherano. I didn't think anything was wrong with our setup after all it brought us within touching distance of the league, I just think if roy is going 4-4-2 we have to have better wide players or the fullbaks HAVE to get forwards, I can't see the formation being a success otherwise I really don't.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166653#msg1166653 date=1283202957]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166639#msg1166639 date=1283202501]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=41677.msg1166628#msg1166628 date=1283201912]
hahah you're like an old horse that's seen better days. getting all nostalgic over your past glories before the inevitable happens and nature takes its course
[/quote]

Hahaha. Good analogy.

I think Spider needs to just to take a step back with his posts. He was never such a high volume poster on Koptalk. It was quality over quantity.

Not sure what's changed over recent years. Maybe it's the "Rafa effect". You know, where you start off quite reserved, classy and humble.. and then by the end of the "5 year plan", you to turn into an outspoken, confrontational, quacking looney.
[/quote]

the frequency of the post is the result of seeing more and more wrong with the team, the stuff I've seen recently in the team borders on idiocy, like roy's tactics v man city, a two man central midfield v a three man central midfield, seriously, what the FUCK?!
[/quote]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a 2 man midfield against City. United have done well against them with a 4-4-2 in the past. I think our problem was that one of those men was Lucas; who is a passenger.

.. and our wide players were Dirk Kuyt and Dirk Kuyt II* who offered us no width to stretch City, and no service going the other way. Hence, everything just became ugly and disjointed.

But yeah, with the players he had at his disposal, it was a tactical error on Roy's part (not helped by Mascher's late withdrawal).

*("new and improved", faster but with a worst first touch).

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166660#msg1166660 date=1283203242]
two holding midfielders is a good tactic when the players are xabi and mascherano. I didn't think anything was wrong with our setup after all it brought us within touching distance of the league, I just think if roy is going 4-4-2 we have to have better wide players or the fullbaks HAVE to get forwards, I can't see the formation being a success otherwise I really don't.
[/quote]

I'm of the opinion that we weren't really in touching distance of the league given that we were never within 3pts of them till the end. It was a season where we recieved the "luck of champion" ten-folds and still couldn't go on to win it with Rafa's ideologies (of Player A relying on Player B, who relies on Player C).

There was so many red cards for our opponents, so many tight decisions going our way and yet we could not close the deal because Rafa's tactics depended on everyone being fit for every game, else the whole team would suffer in some way, shape or form. It's an ideology which is best suited for cup competitions where you can get players fit and rested in between rounds, but for a league campaign in England (where you need 85 odd points to win it), however close, we would have never won it with Rafa.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166661#msg1166661 date=1283203459]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166653#msg1166653 date=1283202957]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166639#msg1166639 date=1283202501]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=41677.msg1166628#msg1166628 date=1283201912]
hahah you're like an old horse that's seen better days. getting all nostalgic over your past glories before the inevitable happens and nature takes its course
[/quote]

Hahaha. Good analogy.

I think Spider needs to just to take a step back with his posts. He was never such a high volume poster on Koptalk. It was quality over quantity.

Not sure what's changed over recent years. Maybe it's the "Rafa effect". You know, where you start off quite reserved, classy and humble.. and then by the end of the "5 year plan", you to turn into an outspoken, confrontational, quacking looney.
[/quote]

the frequency of the post is the result of seeing more and more wrong with the team, the stuff I've seen recently in the team borders on idiocy, like roy's tactics v man city, a two man central midfield v a three man central midfield, seriously, what the FUCK?!
[/quote]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a 2 man midfield against City. United have done well against them with a 4-4-2 in the past. I think our problem was that one of those men was Lucas; who is a passenger.

.. and our wide players were Dirk Kuyt and Dirk Kuyt II* who offered us no width to stretch City, and no service going the other way. Hence, everything just became ugly and disjointed.

But yeah, with the players he had at his disposal, it was a tactical error on Roy's part (not helped by Mascher's late withdrawal).

*("new and improved", faster but with a worst first touch).
[/quote]

that's what I meant, rubbish tactics with the players at our disposal. spurs went 4-4-2 and cut them open time and time again but they had the players for that.
the players that we have currently on the books lends itself to 4-5-1 (with the fullbacks providing the width) people can go on all day long about 'defenders that defend' and in the next breathe moan when we create next to no chances.

look at the players on the books and build tactics around that, not who we want and how we should play with those imaginary players

 

[Fabio]

I'd still like 3-5-2

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166666#msg1166666 date=1283203801]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166660#msg1166660 date=1283203242]
two holding midfielders is a good tactic when the players are xabi and mascherano. I didn't think anything was wrong with our setup after all it brought us within touching distance of the league, I just think if roy is going 4-4-2 we have to have better wide players or the fullbaks HAVE to get forwards, I can't see the formation being a success otherwise I really don't.
[/quote]

I'm of the opinion that we weren't really in touching distance of the league given that we were never within 3pts of them till the end. It was a season where we recieved the "luck of champion" ten-folds and still couldn't go on to win it with Rafa's ideologies (of Player A relying on Player B, who relies on Player C).

There was so many red cards for our opponents, so many tight decisions going our way and yet we could not close the deal because Rafa's tactics depended on everyone being fit for every game, else the whole team would suffer in some way, shape or form. It's an ideology which is best suited for cup competitions where you can get players fit and rested in between rounds, but for a league campaign in England (where you need 85 odd points to win it), however close, we would have never won it with Rafa.
[/quote]

hmmm, don't know which side of the fence I fall there as a couple of decisions would have seen us champions, the disallowed stoke goal, the last minute everton freekick (at home), that's all it would have taken but yes, rafa's caution ultimately cost us the league.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166675#msg1166675 date=1283204101]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166666#msg1166666 date=1283203801]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166660#msg1166660 date=1283203242]
two holding midfielders is a good tactic when the players are xabi and mascherano. I didn't think anything was wrong with our setup after all it brought us within touching distance of the league, I just think if roy is going 4-4-2 we have to have better wide players or the fullbaks HAVE to get forwards, I can't see the formation being a success otherwise I really don't.
[/quote]

I'm of the opinion that we weren't really in touching distance of the league given that we were never within 3pts of them till the end. It was a season where we recieved the "luck of champion" ten-folds and still couldn't go on to win it with Rafa's ideologies (of Player A relying on Player B, who relies on Player C).

There was so many red cards for our opponents, so many tight decisions going our way and yet we could not close the deal because Rafa's tactics depended on everyone being fit for every game, else the whole team would suffer in some way, shape or form. It's an ideology which is best suited for cup competitions where you can get players fit and rested in between rounds, but for a league campaign in England (where you need 85 odd points to win it), however close, we would have never won it with Rafa.
[/quote]

hmmm, don't know which side of the fence I fall there as a couple of decisions would have seen us champions, the disallowed stoke goal, the last minute everton freekick (at home), that's all it would have taken but yes, rafa's caution ultimately cost us the league.
[/quote]

A few more decisions? haha. I think we got our fair share of luck and then some. Besides, that Stoke decision was in like August!

Anyway, like you said, with our current personnel, a 4-5-1 or 3-6-1 (because lets face it, we've only got 1 real quality forward) might just be our best bet going forward right now, but I'm happy Roy played a 4-4-2 as I'd like to see us get back to that eventually and he'll have (hopefully) learnt which players just aren't cut out for that demand, after the City game.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166680#msg1166680 date=1283204394]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166675#msg1166675 date=1283204101]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166666#msg1166666 date=1283203801]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166660#msg1166660 date=1283203242]
two holding midfielders is a good tactic when the players are xabi and mascherano. I didn't think anything was wrong with our setup after all it brought us within touching distance of the league, I just think if roy is going 4-4-2 we have to have better wide players or the fullbaks HAVE to get forwards, I can't see the formation being a success otherwise I really don't.
[/quote]

I'm of the opinion that we weren't really in touching distance of the league given that we were never within 3pts of them till the end. It was a season where we recieved the "luck of champion" ten-folds and still couldn't go on to win it with Rafa's ideologies (of Player A relying on Player B, who relies on Player C).

There was so many red cards for our opponents, so many tight decisions going our way and yet we could not close the deal because Rafa's tactics depended on everyone being fit for every game, else the whole team would suffer in some way, shape or form. It's an ideology which is best suited for cup competitions where you can get players fit and rested in between rounds, but for a league campaign in England (where you need 85 odd points to win it), however close, we would have never won it with Rafa.
[/quote]

hmmm, don't know which side of the fence I fall there as a couple of decisions would have seen us champions, the disallowed stoke goal, the last minute everton freekick (at home), that's all it would have taken but yes, rafa's caution ultimately cost us the league.
[/quote]

A few more decisions? haha. I think we got our fair share of luck and then some. Besides, that Stoke decision was in like August!

Anyway, like you said, with our current personnel, a 4-5-1 or 3-6-1 (because lets face it, we've only got 1 real quality forward) might just be our best bet going forward right now, but I'm happy Roy played a 4-4-2 as I'd like to see us get back to that eventually and he'll have (hopefully) learnt which players just aren't cut out for that demand, after the game.
[/quote]

4-4-2 and grin and bear the teething problems? not sure I agree with that, with man city and spurs all gunning for CL places our margin for error is pretty much nil. use tactics the players are used to, tactics that suit the personnel on the books and attempt to win as many points as possible, 4-4-2 at man city seemed like an experiement that went badly wrong, you use preseason for experiments.

going back to wingers, have we had a winger of any class since macca fucked off to real? a lot of that is down to buying absolute shit like nunez but how much of that is also due to being an overly cautious team?

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166696#msg1166696 date=1283204954]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166680#msg1166680 date=1283204394]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166675#msg1166675 date=1283204101]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41677.msg1166666#msg1166666 date=1283203801]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41677.msg1166660#msg1166660 date=1283203242]
two holding midfielders is a good tactic when the players are xabi and mascherano. I didn't think anything was wrong with our setup after all it brought us within touching distance of the league, I just think if roy is going 4-4-2 we have to have better wide players or the fullbaks HAVE to get forwards, I can't see the formation being a success otherwise I really don't.
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I'm of the opinion that we weren't really in touching distance of the league given that we were never within 3pts of them till the end. It was a season where we recieved the "luck of champion" ten-folds and still couldn't go on to win it with Rafa's ideologies (of Player A relying on Player B, who relies on Player C).

There was so many red cards for our opponents, so many tight decisions going our way and yet we could not close the deal because Rafa's tactics depended on everyone being fit for every game, else the whole team would suffer in some way, shape or form. It's an ideology which is best suited for cup competitions where you can get players fit and rested in between rounds, but for a league campaign in England (where you need 85 odd points to win it), however close, we would have never won it with Rafa.
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hmmm, don't know which side of the fence I fall there as a couple of decisions would have seen us champions, the disallowed stoke goal, the last minute everton freekick (at home), that's all it would have taken but yes, rafa's caution ultimately cost us the league.
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A few more decisions? haha. I think we got our fair share of luck and then some. Besides, that Stoke decision was in like August!

Anyway, like you said, with our current personnel, a 4-5-1 or 3-6-1 (because lets face it, we've only got 1 real quality forward) might just be our best bet going forward right now, but I'm happy Roy played a 4-4-2 as I'd like to see us get back to that eventually and he'll have (hopefully) learnt which players just aren't cut out for that demand, after the game.
[/quote]

4-4-2 and grin and bear the teething problems? not sure I agree with that, with man city and spurs all gunning for CL places our margin for error is pretty much nil. use tactics the players are used to, tactics that suit the personnel on the books and attempt to win as many points as possible, 4-4-2 at man city seemed like an experiement that went badly wrong, you use preseason for experiments.

going back to wingers, have we had a winger of any class since macca fucked off to real? a lot of that is down to buying absolute shit like nunez but how much of that is also due to being an overly cautious team?
[/quote]

Hell no! Not grin and bear it. We'd end up 10th if we stuck to it. What I meant was that I was glad he used it in that one game (which we were expected to lose anyway) and Roy had a chance, first hand, to find out how far away we were from actually having a side that could play that formation. Hence, he'll be able to get back to the usual formation, but also bring the necessary players in (whilst shipping out the unadaptable players), to eventually get us back to the 4-4-2.