Will Daniel Sturridge ever play for us again?

[mark1975]

Perhaps Klopp is surprised that 70% of our opponents simply show up with no interest of actually playing football. Some of the negative, anti football we've seen this year has been ridiculous, but it's completely self induced by demonstrating time & time again that we struggle against that style. Initially I think Klopp was taken back that such tactics weren't frowned upon by fans and the media as it makes for such a dire and turgid spectacle.

The game against Utd where Mourinho simply parked the bus and received only a few small groans in the press was a pivotal moment. All other teams in the league figured that if Utd could be so negative and somehow still come out with some credibility then they could also use the same tactic.

We simply needed to demonstrate the ability to destroy a couple of teams that deployed that tactic and that's where Klopp failed. He walked into the same trap for fucking months and was still somewhat surprised that our strengths (counter attacking/gegen pressing) weren't allowed to flourish.

Yep. Most of them have done their homework on us and exploited our own flaws, by hitting us on the break and from setpieces. If we can't repel a team that identifies the very basic weak points in our own team, then that's our problem.

The most turgid teams we've faced this season and in the last couple of years, have been United (who really are a disgrace for the money they've spent) and Everton, who seem to think they just have to turn up and kick shit out of us, even though it never works.

So this is where the much maligned and scoffed at plan B should have come in, it might be a crappy football cliche, but Klopp needed something else and his stubborn perseverance with the same system, and reluctance to change things, was frustrating to watch.

 

[dantes]

I made that same point yesterday:

I made that same point in October when you were busy ejaculating over our results, and I was not because I see things:

Instead of making Sturridge run around and track back into midfield, it would be better to tell the rest of the team who don't have his class to adapt. When Firmino plays, it's fine not much needs changing or replacing. When Sturridge plays, Klopp needs to get the team to change it's approach to suit him. Then we get the best of both worlds and probably double the amount of goals we score if he can make those adaptations mid-game.

If Sturridge starts, it should be alongside Origi, and the team should switch to a diamond. Otherwise we're just wasting the wide players because they'll have no space to run into, and no movement from Sturridge to exploit and react to.

 

[rurikbird]

Aren't Real Madrid playing a 4-4-2 diamond? Kroos on the left of the mid diamond, Modric in the attacking tip, and Ronaldo & Benzema as the two wide forwards?

It works for them cos Marcelo is so high energy on the wings.

They did, actually, in a couple of recent CL games (while Bale is injured), but their basic system is still 4-3-3. This list is not always 100% accurate, but a good indication nonetheless.

I think Isco was the attacking tip, not Modric.

 

[moron]

Perhaps Klopp is surprised that 70% of our opponents simply show up with no interest of actually playing football. Some of the negative, anti football we've seen this year has been ridiculous, but it's completely self induced by demonstrating time & time again that we struggle against that style. Initially I think Klopp was taken back that such tactics weren't frowned upon by fans and the media as it makes for such a dire and turgid spectacle.

The game against Utd where Mourinho simply parked the bus and received only a few small groans in the press was a pivotal moment. All other teams in the league figured that if Utd could be so negative and somehow still come out with some credibility then they could also use the same tactic.

We simply needed to demonstrate the ability to destroy a couple of teams that deployed that tactic and that's where Klopp failed. He walked into the same trap for fucking months and was still somewhat surprised that our strengths (counter attacking/gegen pressing) weren't allowed to flourish.

This was part of what i was trying to stress in my post regarding the 70%. As for the foreign managers who have done well coming from those 1-2 team leagues .... they have managed it in the past because the quality they inherited or finances provided was way above anything belonging to the other teams. That situation has slightly changed because of the quality of todays players is extremely poor compared to what was back then. Right now if you have a combination of certain type of players that can target a big teams weakness specifically you have a chance e.g. crystal palace vs us and chelsea. Even Jose has found this season that money is not gonna help as much as it used to .... hence the large number of draws his side has had.

Sent from my SM-A300FU using SixCrazyMinutes mobile app

 

[Insignificance]

I think it is to defensive to start to talk about a plan B, or even complain about those low teams. They know that if they going to get anything from us they need to defend for their lives. So they do. If we had a plan B (whatever Works against these teams?) why is that not our plan A as they all seem to do it? United does it, Chelsea does it and I bet Arsenal would done if they knew how. If players and Clubs want to make money out of laying inside their own Box and trying to stop us from scoring so be it. We just need to be even faster in our interchanging, quicker in our movement and more accurate in our passing. We need to believe in what we are doing.

Klopp has got us were we are with far less team than Man City, Man United and Chelsea. Even Arsenal and Spurs probably match our squad. But we can't appreciate a Draw against Saints, which gives us an important point. We can't appreciate Three clean sheets on a row which are important to keep us in the front run for CL qualification. I agree we should aim higher, and I know we will, but give the team some time and the manager some credit for the job we have done.

Why are teams ultradefenisve against us? Because they are scared. They know we will bite them if they loose up. It is up to us to improve, and we will. We have learned a lot this season to bring with us over the summer. But let's appreciate that it has been done a lot of good hard work to Reach the improvement so far. It will take same amount of work for next step, but that should be with positive energy throughout, and not with the negativity spread around far to often.

 

[jason]

Surly we just need to morph from a 433 to a diamond mid flow then. Or is that too simple?

 

[Judge Jules]

I don't think it is, and maybe the fact that we haven't been doing it shows that Klopp (of whom I'm mostly a big fan) needs to be less rigid in his thinking sometimes.

 

[gkmacca]

Perhaps Klopp is surprised that 70% of our opponents simply show up with no interest of actually playing football. Some of the negative, anti football we've seen this year has been ridiculous, but it's completely self induced by demonstrating time & time again that we struggle against that style.

'Completely self-induced'?? I think sometimes the frustration of experiencing it makes many fans think it's some kind of incredibly localised failing, when the reality is that any team struggles against 'negative, anti football'. What's more peculiar is that so few of those teams tried the same tactics against clubs other than us. Of course, had they done so regularly there would have been an outcry, but there's no great mystery as to why it works. It's a bit like Glock coming on here and someone reacting to the predictable dialogue of the deaf by saying, 'Coh, you lot totally failed to engage him in a grown-up, rational conversation. You obviously don't have a plan B!'

 

[dantes]

Surly we just need to morph from a 433 to a diamond mid flow then. Or is that too simple?

It is simple. Unfortunately, it's too late now to make it work with one game to go. Also given our shiteness it's too difficult to make it appear like I know what I'm doing you can trust me etc etc, if Klopp tries anything now he will come across as a moron in a state of desperate panic. He should have acted before Christmas when the players would still have looked upon him as God.

 

[manwithnoname]

'Completely self-induced'?? I think sometimes the frustration of experiencing it makes many fans think it's some kind of incredibly localised failing, when the reality is that any team struggles against 'negative, anti football'. What's more peculiar is that so few of those teams tried the same tactics against clubs other than us. Of course, had they done so regularly there would have been an outcry, but there's no great mystery as to why it works. It's a bit like Glock coming on here and someone reacting to the predictable dialogue of the deaf by saying, 'Coh, you lot totally failed to engage him in a grown-up, rational conversation. You obviously don't have a plan B!'

So more teams play with a "more negative style" against us more often than they do against the likes of Arsenal, City, Spurs and Chelsea?
That would explain why we didn't win the league!

It doesn't explain why we lost to Bournemouth, Swansea, Palace, Hull and Burnley, though. Maybe Bournemouth scored 4 by accident.

Or maybe better teams are simply more capable of dealing with "negative styles" even if they do come across it less often than we do, apparently.

 

[Insignificance]

So more teams play with a "more negative style" against us more often than they do against the likes of Arsenal, City, Spurs and Chelsea?
That would explain why we didn't win the league!

It doesn't explain why we lost to Bournemouth, Swansea, Palace, Hull and Burnley, though. Maybe Bournemouth scored 4 by accident.

Or maybe better teams are simply more capable of dealing with "negative styles" even if they do come across it less often than we do, apparently.

People Reading this forum have to come up with "negative style" on regular basis. It's quite frustrating, believe me. So I can see why the team also struggle.

 

[manwithnoname]

People Reading this forum have to come up with "negative style" on regular basis. It's quite frustrating, believe me. So I can see why the team also struggle.

I suggest you improve

 

[Insignificance]

I suggest you improve

Its not fucking easy. New negative angles every time.

 

[mark1975]

It's not negative, it's realistic. People seem to have this constant need to gloss over everything with excuses. Klopp has refused to be flexible when facing negative teams, to the point where his inaction and the end result have become all too predictable. The kind of change we made on Sunday is what many of us have cried out for for months. The fact it's taken this long and so many repeat performances is worrying to say the least. It's not negative, it's an obvious area of concern.

 

[Insignificance]

It's not negative, it's realistic. People seem to have this constant need to gloss over everything with excuses. Klopp has refused to be flexible when facing negative teams, to the point where his inaction and the end result have become all too predictable. The kind of change we made on Sunday is what many of us have cried out for for months. The fact it's taken this long and so many repeat performances is worrying to say the least. It's not negative, it's an obvious area of concern.

It's not negative? If we concede a goal we are shit at defending and if we keep a clean sheet we stink offensively.

And regarding changes for West Ham we have not have the personell available.Studge has been injured and so has Mane, Lallana and others. Their back ups and alternatives - Ings, Grujic and others also injured.

So it's impossible to use the West Ham game for any proof that we would have done better at any time.

 

[the count]

 

[gkmacca]

It's not negative, it's realistic. People seem to have this constant need to gloss over everything with excuses. Klopp has refused to be flexible when facing negative teams, to the point where his inaction and the end result have become all too predictable. The kind of change we made on Sunday is what many of us have cried out for for months. The fact it's taken this long and so many repeat performances is worrying to say the least. It's not negative, it's an obvious area of concern.

West Ham didn't play that negatively at all. If they had, I doubt that system would have fared too well. I think it's beholden on those who demand greater flexibility against the REALLY negative teams to be clear and coherent as to what system they feel will actually work. Because it's baffled Barca in the past, let alone us.

 

[mark1975]

It's not negative? If we concede a goal we are shit at defending and if we keep a clean sheet we stink offensively.

And regarding changes for West Ham we have not have the personell available.Studge has been injured and so has Mane, Lallana and others. Their back ups and alternatives - Ings, Grujic and others also injured.

So it's impossible to use the West Ham game for any proof that we would have done better at any time.

Sorry, but this is bollocks. We're talking about the season as a whole, not one game in isolation, or the last month or so where we've had injuries. Klopp has done extremely well this season, if there's one area where I've repeatedly said he can improve, it's in his ability to be flexible in his approach and more importantly, during games.

Klopp shoehorned Benteke into what he wanted his preferred forward to play like last season, he's done it with other players and in other scenarios, when adjusting his tactic to get the best out of the player just seemed like a complete non-starter and it more often than not either cost us or saw an inevitable poor performance from the player.

Are you telling me that in all of the games where we've dropped points against minor opposition, the opportunity wasn't there to change system or approach? Because that's simply untrue.

 

[mark1975]

West Ham didn't play that negatively at all. If they had, I doubt that system would have fared too well. I think it's beholden on those who demand greater flexibility against the REALLY negative teams to be clear and coherent as to what system they feel will actually work. Because it's baffled Barca in the past, let alone us.

I think the crux of our success was moving Coutinho more central, which is arguably a useful weapon against tight defenses. That's the sort of tactic alot of people have pointed to, especially when we've had a rather negative midfield with Lucas unnecessarily in it.

 

[gkmacca]

I think the crux of our success was moving Coutinho more central, which is arguably a useful weapon against tight defenses. That's the sort of tactic alot of people have pointed to, especially when we've had a rather negative midfield with Lucas unnecessarily in it.

That's it, is it? That's the sum of the changes?

 

[darkstarexodus]

Have to say that I'd be happy to keep Sturridge another year provided we go out and buy a top striker as well. He was absolute class in this game. I don't think he'll ever be reliable but he can definitely impact our season, especially if he doesn't need to be fit every week.

 

[gareth_thomas]

He's a VERY expensive bit part player tho...

 

[mark1975]

That's it, is it? That's the sum of the changes?

No, it's an example. It was the crux of our success on Sunday, ergo other relatively minor alterations might have worked in other games. The point was there have been other games where it's been obvious what the opposition would set up to do, yet we set about ourselves in the same way that's failed in similar games. Villarreal is another example, where they were poor on the day and there for the taking, yet we chose to keep it tight, when we could have made it easier on ourselves for the return leg.

It's only the smallest criticism you can make of Klopp, in that he can be hesitant and a bit stubborn with his set up. As I say, he's otherwise done brilliantly.

 

[gareth_thomas]

We had the chance to strengthen in January - we did fuck all... so I'm inclined to roll my eyes when lack of attacking options is used as an excuse for our inability to break negative teams down..

 

[Insignificance]

Sorry, but this is bollocks. We're talking about the season as a whole, not one game in isolation, or the last month or so where we've had injuries. Klopp has done extremely well this season, if there's one area where I've repeatedly said he can improve, it's in his ability to be flexible in his approach and more importantly, during games.

Klopp shoehorned Benteke into what he wanted his preferred forward to play like last season, he's done it with other players and in other scenarios, when adjusting his tactic to get the best out of the player just seemed like a complete non-starter and it more often than not either cost us or saw an inevitable poor performance from the player.

Are you telling me that in all of the games where we've dropped points against minor opposition, the opportunity wasn't there to change system or approach? Because that's simply untrue.

You are wrong. All over.

First, West Ham was not parking the bus. Period. And to say if we only changed earlier everything would be fine is plain stupid. Studge was rarely fit earlier and Origi was not setting the world a light Even if he suddenly had a partner.

And by you arguments here Klopp and the gang should have used the early season performances against Hull, Watford and Leicester to prove they should spend energy on changing everything around. Halleluja!

 

[Insignificance]

We had the chance to strengthen in January - we did fuck all... so I'm inclined to roll my eyes when lack of attacking options is used as an excuse for our inability to break negative teams down..

The manager said that the players he wanted (also known as quality players able to win stuff) was not available. So what is your suggestion to whom we should have got in January?

 

[StevieM]

It's also worth noting that we actually did manage to break down a lot of teams that "parked the bus".

Teams know we're poor defending set pieces - that has nothing to do with us playing attacking football - it's not as if we decide to leave forwards up the pitch when we concede a corner or free kick in a dangerous area.

Better defenders and better organisation at set pieces is going to have a huge impact on opposition tactics.

 

[FoxForceFive]

We had the chance to strengthen in January - we did fuck all... so I'm inclined to roll my eyes when lack of attacking options is used as an excuse for our inability to break negative teams down..

It's pretty clear Klopp wasn't impressed with the players we could attract. A win on Sunday & we'll have CL qualification & will be able to hopefully attract a higher calibre of player & strengthen adequately for next season.