Why are English supporters the most pitiful in world football?

[gkmacca]

There's definitely something that needs much more analysis about the reason why such a significant section of English fans seem inclined to cause a disorder when following the national team abroad. I mean, look at the Scots: Scottish fans are not any more well-behaved than English fans in their own countries (and the disgraceful Old Firm games show that some can be worse), but (if you can remember that far back) Scots have tended to behave pretty well when following the national side in tournaments. Even the Irish, contrary to media romanticising, are hardly angels at home (just look at some research into recent violence at football and other sporting events, and the rising influence of cocaine as well as alcohol, in The Garda Review and elsewhere), but there's no denying they're generally excellent when abroad in tournaments. (The same comparisons apply, to varying degrees, with the Italians, Spanish, French and even the Germans.) So there's no in-built propensity in the English to behave so much worse than anyone else in these (or any other) situations. Is it the difference in expectations? Is it poor preparation by fans groups and the FA? Is it provocation? Probably a combination of all of these, but there must be something else. There's no reason why it has to be this way.

 

[Mystic]

Hey Ryan, seems as you're stuck in the 1980's do yourself a favour and invest in Apple.

 

[#roadred]

All of this would be neatly solved by Battle Royale style tournaments.

 

[Mystic]

There was a political sh*tstorm in Brazil too over corruption and the money raised for stadium completion with so many social and health problems at the time.

All those protests for the most part were peaceful though.

Just surprising groups as large 150 can go unnoticed until they start bashing people. Surely the authorities would be all over them before they kicked off.

It's not like its one lone guy kicking off.

I think the difference is that Brazil's grief was directed towards their government, here it's directed towards the EU, it just exacerbates a volatile situation. As for the crowds, yeh, the police really need to up their game here.

 

[Judge Jules]

There's definitely something that needs much more analysis about the reason why such a significant section of English fans seem inclined to cause a disorder when following the national team abroad. I mean, look at the Scots: Scottish fans are not any more well-behaved than English fans in their own countries (and the disgraceful Old Firm games show that some can be worse), but (if you can remember that far back) Scots have tended to behave pretty well when following the national side in tournaments. Even the Irish, contrary to media romanticising, are hardly angels at home (just look at some research into recent violence at football and other sporting events, and the rising influence of cocaine as well as alcohol, in The Garda Review and elsewhere), but there's no denying they're generally excellent when abroad in tournaments. (The same comparisons apply, to varying degrees, with the Italians, Spanish, French and even the Germans.) So there's no in-built propensity in the English to behave so much worse than anyone else in these (or any other) situations. Is it the difference in expectations? Is it poor preparation by fans groups and the FA? Is it provocation? Probably a combination of all of these, but there must be something else. There's no reason why it has to be this way.

It's something I'm surprised not to have seen researched (as far as I know) before now. One would have thought it ripe for some young PhD postulant.

 

[gkmacca]

Quite. The current discussions about it, in innumerable contexts, don't hark back so much to the 1970s as back to Victorian times. I'm surprised no one's yet suggested measuring foreheads.

 

[Oliver Twist]

I read the op and the first thing that sprung to mind was Celt in bitter English rant shocker

 

[manwithnoname]

There's definitely something that needs much more analysis about the reason why such a significant section of English fans seem inclined to cause a disorder when following the national team abroad. I mean, look at the Scots: Scottish fans are not any more well-behaved than English fans in their own countries (and the disgraceful Old Firm games show that some can be worse), but (if you can remember that far back) Scots have tended to behave pretty well when following the national side in tournaments. Even the Irish, contrary to media romanticising, are hardly angels at home (just look at some research into recent violence at football and other sporting events, and the rising influence of cocaine as well as alcohol, in The Garda Review and elsewhere), but there's no denying they're generally excellent when abroad in tournaments. (The same comparisons apply, to varying degrees, with the Italians, Spanish, French and even the Germans.) So there's no in-built propensity in the English to behave so much worse than anyone else in these (or any other) situations. Is it the difference in expectations? Is it poor preparation by fans groups and the FA? Is it provocation? Probably a combination of all of these, but there must be something else. There's no reason why it has to be this way.

I've often wondered if there's some kind of weird cultural, ethnographic, geographical, historical collision of factors about this country and how it behaves.

I remember as a kid looking at world map globes and being totally amazed at how unbelievably tiny and seemingly insignificant this country is. And yet it's got 65m people in it, and is the world's fifth largest economy. It was - relatively recently - the largest empire on the planet. It is home to many of the greatest artistic, scientific, democratic and literature achievements in the last 500 years.

And that voracious appetite to conquer, explore, achieve, exploit, enslave, murder, expand is perhaps somehow linked to a key fact: we really do love fighting.

It's not just an "island" mentality. There's plenty of surrounded rocks with people on it across the world who seem more content than we generally are.

Perhaps this hooligan capitulation in France is part of the classic end of an empire thing, that loads of ancient civilisations go through; they get fat and lazy and forget what made them great, and simply collapse. As Eric Cline said in his book (quoting Renfrew):

"general features of systems collapse, itemizing them as follows: (1) the collapse of the central administrative organization; (2) the disappearance of the traditional elite class; (3) a collapse of the centralized economy; (4) a settlement shift and population decline; (5) your hooligans becoming unfit and complacent, and getting battered by the Russian Ultras"

It's very worrying.

 

[StevieM]

I recommend moving to Australia.

 

[Jack D Rips]

Personally, I think the results of the research would show that it is nothing more than knobheadism on a grand scale, being handed down from generation to generation and that these guys seem to think that they have a tradition to live up to. So really an ability to learn the words of Rule Brittania, No surrender to the IRA and We won the war and off you go.

As Macca says internally most countries have a similar proportion of people who behave like arseholes at home. Lord knows we have plenty of them where I come from. But it seems that when the Welsh, Scots and both Irelands travel all they want to do is enjoy the craic.

 

[manwithnoname]

Personally, I think the results of the research would show that it is nothing more than knobheadism on a grand scale, being handed down from generation to generation and that these guys seem to think that they have a tradition to live up to. So really an ability to learn the words of Rule Brittania, No surrender to the IRA and We won the war and off you go.

As Macca says internally most countries have a similar proportion of people who behave like arseholes at home. Lord knows we have plenty of them where I come from. But it seems that when the Welsh, Scots and both Irelands travel all they want to do is enjoy the craic.

Yeah, it's that DNA thing again. When the English get on a boat and go somewhere else, it used to be because they were going to enslave and pillage the place they went to, fighting and killing everyone they saw.

Whereas the Welsh, Scottish and Irish were already under English rule, and were more used to actually being invaded and beaten up, rather than the other way around.

Learned behaviour.

 

[tony]

There's definitely something that needs much more analysis about the reason why such a significant section of English fans seem inclined to cause a disorder when following the national team abroad. I mean, look at the Scots: Scottish fans are not any more well-behaved than English fans in their own countries (and the disgraceful Old Firm games show that some can be worse), but (if you can remember that far back) Scots have tended to behave pretty well when following the national side in tournaments. Even the Irish, contrary to media romanticising, are hardly angels at home (just look at some research into recent violence at football and other sporting events, and the rising influence of cocaine as well as alcohol, in The Garda Review and elsewhere), but there's no denying they're generally excellent when abroad in tournaments. (The same comparisons apply, to varying degrees, with the Italians, Spanish, French and even the Germans.) So there's no in-built propensity in the English to behave so much worse than anyone else in these (or any other) situations. Is it the difference in expectations? Is it poor preparation by fans groups and the FA? Is it provocation? Probably a combination of all of these, but there must be something else. There's no reason why it has to be this way.

Perception I think. It wasn't so long ago the Scots were responsible for similar problems, London during Euro 96 for example. Other countries supporters get pissed sing songs about rivals and are pretty antisocial during tournaments but are portrayed by the media as fun loving fans. Try walking in an England shirt past a square full of so called loveable Irish or Scotish fans and see what you get! so there is a level of media hypocrisy involved. Notice how little has been said about the French hooligans getting involved, not only against the English but the Poles Noironish Germans Ukrainians etc etc etc - nothing from Uefa about them.

Unfortunately our past reputation means we will always be under the media spotlight, it attracts trouble and a sizeable minority are all too willing to step up to the plate when provoked.

 

[Judge Jules]

Personally, I think the results of the research would show that it is nothing more than knobheadism on a grand scale, being handed down from generation to generation and that these guys seem to think that they have a tradition to live up to. So really an ability to learn the words of Rule Brittania, No surrender to the IRA and We won the war and off you go.

As Macca says internally most countries have a similar proportion of people who behave like arseholes at home. Lord knows we have plenty of them where I come from. But it seems that when the Welsh, Scots and both Irelands travel all they want to do is enjoy the craic.

Wouldn't disagree with much of your first para.except to say that's not actually what I'd like to see researched. It's your final sentence which describes what I'd like to know more about. Why has foreign travel affected some of our travelling supporters some of the time in such an adverse way?

 

[tony]

Yeah, it's that DNA thing again. When the English get on a boat and go somewhere else, it used to be because they were going to enslave and pillage the place they went to, fighting and killing everyone they saw.

Whereas the Welsh, Scottish and Irish were already under English rule, and were more used to actually being invaded and beaten up, rather than the other way around.

Learned behaviour.

The Welsh and particularly the Scottish were right beside us and in some cases ahead of us English when we were raping and plundering the world !

 

[Oliver Twist]

Yeah, it's that DNA thing again. When the English get on a boat and go somewhere else, it used to be because they were going to enslave and pillage the place they went to, fighting and killing everyone they saw..

So did the Portuguese and Spanish - among other nations - and their fans don't behave like the English. I don't think it's learned behaviour. At least not in the way you frame it.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

Perception I think. It wasn't so long ago the Scots were responsible for similar problems, London during Euro 96 for example. Other countries supporters get pissed sing songs about rivals and are pretty antisocial during tournaments but are portrayed by the media as fun loving fans. Try walking in an England shirt past a square full of so called loveable Irish or Scotish fans and see what you get! so there is a level of media hypocrisy involved. Notice how little has been said about the French hooligans getting involved, not only against the English but the Poles Noironish Germans Ukrainians etc etc etc - nothing from Uefa about them.

Unfortunately our past reputation means we will always be under the media spotlight, it attracts trouble and a sizeable minority are all too willing to step up to the plate when provoked.

I reckon you wouldn't cop much trouble from Irish fans, apart from a bit of fairly harmless winding up.

 

[StevieM]

Yeah, it's that DNA thing again. When the English get on a boat and go somewhere else, it used to be because they were going to enslave and pillage the place they went to, fighting and killing everyone they saw.

The Scandos seemed to have modified their behaviour when the get on a boat now.

They still tend to wear the horned helmets though....

 

[Kay Age El]

Yeah, it's that DNA thing again. When the English get on a boat and go somewhere else, it used to be because they were going to enslave and pillage the place they went to, fighting and killing everyone they saw.

Whereas the Welsh, Scottish and Irish were already under English rule, and were more used to actually being invaded and beaten up, rather than the other way around.

Learned behaviour.

Albeit a rather interesting theory it doesn't explain the whole story though, I mean Scandos were pretty savage too and full of Vikings that conquered and pillaged even the British Isles at some point but our fans are very easy-going, mellow and almost never gets into trouble abroad.

I don't think I can recall one incident actually abroad where our fans at an International level came into trouble. And we do have a lot of brawls at home soil as well especially when fan groups from FC Copenhagen and Brøndby clashes. Same in Sweden where it's even worse I reckon in and around the Stockholm and Göteborg based clubs.

So a lot of it is also just plain bad behavior, a blatant lack of education and respect towards others and probably also a bit of hatred to boot. This is of course all guesses - maybe it's just down to plain boredom or whatever. Either way it's pretty pathetic but that goes for all fan groups that seems more interested to fight than to party.

 

[Kay Age El]

Maybe we should all take a few lessons from this..

 

[tony]

I reckon you wouldn't cop much trouble from Irish fans, apart from a bit of fairly harmless winding up.

Yeah but that's where perception comes in because if it was an Irish fan in a similar situation getting exactly the same pelters instead of harmless banter it would be viewed as aggressive and provocative. That's the difference.

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

Yeah but that's where perception comes in because if it was an Irish fan in a similar situation getting exactly the same pelters instead of harmless banter it would be viewed as aggressive and provocative. That's the difference.

There's a little bit of a difference between harmless banter and IRA, WW2 and ISIS chants.

 

[gkmacca]

Then there's that fecking irritating brass band.

 

[Athens]

The Scandos seemed to have modified their behaviour when the get on a boat now.

They still tend to wear the horned helmets though....

They learned their lesson at the battle of Clontarf.

 

[Jack D Rips]

http://entertainment.ie/trending/ne...-singalongs-to-full-on-bull-fights/382009.htm

We've converted them to riverdancers

 

[Portly]

Yeah, it's that DNA thing again. When the English get on a boat and go somewhere else, it used to be because they were going to enslave and pillage the place they went to, fighting and killing everyone they saw.

Whereas the Welsh, Scottish and Irish were already under English rule, and were more used to actually being invaded and beaten up, rather than the other way around.

Learned behaviour.

I think you are re-writing history there, with your scenario that the English built the Empire, while the Scots, Welsh and Irish stood idly by. The Scots in particular were usually first off the boat with their claymores in hand.

 

[manwithnoname]

There's a little bit of a difference between harmless banter and IRA, WW2 and ISIS chants.

Is there some kind of sell-by date, or "Taking Offence" half-life that takes into account how long ago the event in question was?

What % more offensive would a world war 2 chant be vs world war one?

Would it still be offensive if the English sang songs about The Seven Years' War, and mocked the French about taking over their territories in America?

 

[Holle]

Then there's that fecking irritating brass band.

... who seem to only have 'The Great Escape'-theme in their repertoire.

 

[Athens]

I think you are re-writing history there, with your scenario that the English built the Empire, while the Scots, Welsh and Irish stood idly by. The Scots in particular were usually first off the boat with their claymores in hand.

We had to join up as there wasn't any jobs because you lot stole our potatoes.

 

[Portly]

It was your fault for not growing any carrots or turnips as a tasty alternative.

 

[Athens]

Is there some kind of sell-by date, or "Taking Offence" half-life that takes into account how long ago the event in question was?

What % more offensive would a world war 2 chant be vs world war one?

Would it still be offensive if the English sang songs about The Seven Years' War, and mocked the French about taking over their territories in America?

The next time I see a Frenchie I'm going to start singing "You got ripped off in the Louisiana purchase, you got ripped off in the Louisiana pur-chase!"