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We can't not talk about it.

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Ryan

Ryan

The Prophet
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How does Andy Carroll, whom we paid 35 million pounds for, fit into this fast-moving, ball-playing, forward-interchanging gameplan we've adopted then?

Raping teams left, right and centre for a few weeks, then we go 4-4-2 with the big man up front and get totally overrun in midfield. We created zero, and Modric ran the game from start to finish. It's not a coincidence that we were a shitter team yesterday with Carroll in it.

Sooooooooo, where does this leave us? He'll get a summer of football into him and will be in a better position to show what he's got next season. Still, the tendency is always there to hoof it to him. He's got little by the way of pace and movement, and if I'm honest - yesterday reminded me of how we played when Crouch was in the team; unimaginative, predictable and slow.

How does Andy Carroll fit into the team next season? Or, how does the team accomodate Andy Carroll might be a better question?
 
We buy wingers. If Meireles played instead of Maxi we would have fared better i reckon. Having more men in the middle would have been a big bonus.
 
To be fair, we didnt hoof it up to him at every instance. I think its more of the formation that got us beat yesterday. Being overrun in midfield is no fault of Carroll. I think he will do well in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 once he regains his match sharpness. He's good with his feet, holds up play well and has good timing in releasing the ball which should add a new dimension to our fast moving, ball-playing style.
 
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=45372.msg1334024#msg1334024 date=1305515231]
We buy wingers. If Meireles played instead of Maxi we would have fared better i reckon. Having more men in the middle would have been a big bonus.
[/quote]

So we need more wingers and also more men in the middle?

Are we going to play with 13 men?
 
[quote author=DHSC link=topic=45372.msg1334025#msg1334025 date=1305515401]
To be fair, we didnt hoof it up to him at every instance. I think its more of the formation that got us beat yesterday. Being overrun in midfield is no fault of Carroll. I think he will do well in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 once he regains his match sharpness. He's good with his feet, holds up play well and has good timing in releasing the ball which should add a new dimension to our fast moving, ball-playing style.
[/quote]

Here's one for you: One reason (and there are plenty, mostly due to lazy play from our defence and midfield) why we "hoof it up to him" is because he doesn't know how to find space and receive it any other way.

He's young, and still unbelievably raw. Some of his movement is bad, and he needs to learn how to use his body and his strength better than he does. I've faith he'll get much better though.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45372.msg1334028#msg1334028 date=1305516331]
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=45372.msg1334024#msg1334024 date=1305515231]
We buy wingers. If Meireles played instead of Maxi we would have fared better i reckon. Having more men in the middle would have been a big bonus.
[/quote]

So we need more wingers and also more men in the middle?

Are we going to play with 13 men?
[/quote]

That response seems painfully pedantic...
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45372.msg1334029#msg1334029 date=1305516487]
[quote author=DHSC link=topic=45372.msg1334025#msg1334025 date=1305515401]
To be fair, we didnt hoof it up to him at every instance. I think its more of the formation that got us beat yesterday. Being overrun in midfield is no fault of Carroll. I think he will do well in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 once he regains his match sharpness. He's good with his feet, holds up play well and has good timing in releasing the ball which should add a new dimension to our fast moving, ball-playing style.
[/quote]

Here's one for you: One reason (and there are plenty, mostly due to lazy play from our defence and midfield) why we "hoof it up to him" is because he doesn't know how to find space and receive it any other way.

He's young, and still unbelievably raw. Some of his movement is bad, and he needs to learn how to use his body and his strength better than he does. I've faith he'll get much better though.
[/quote]

Could it be that he can't find space because he is still not fully match fit? I have not seen much of Newcastle this year, but every time I saw him play he was bullying central defenders and winning headers in pretty good positions. He was also receiving balls in good positions and laying them off to runners well.

I must stress that this is a very small sample size for me and he has not reproduced that form so far for us. Again, this goes back to whether he is fully match fit. Also his career with us has been stop start, it's difficult to gel with the rest of his team mates if he plays one game and is out for the next 2 or 3. It is also possible that he is feeling the burden of THAT price tag on him.

I have a nagging feeling that next season will be a frustrating season for Andy. I don't think he will start as many games as we think he will next season. We will probably see a lot of the Suarez-Kuyt combination, and also the Suarez-new attacking player (Aguero?) combination. I hope Andy gets his head down and works hard, and take in as much advice as he can from Kenny because I feel Kenny really can help realise his potential.
 
Carroll didn't have the best of games, but it's not all his fault.

We had no composure in midfield ... no one willing to recieve the ball and take it forward.

More often than not it the defence was bypassing the midfield and knocking it up to Carroll.
 
I think the answer is we don't have a groupd of players that can play effectively in a 442 formation. If the wide men in a 442 are Kuyt & Maxi then it's going to be difficult. A midfield of Lucas & Spearing is not exactly top quality.

When we play 433 with say Kuyt & Suarez playing off Carroll & the likes of Gerrard or Merieles added to the midfield it makes a difference.

If we add some pace and creativity to the wide areas then we'll be able to use Carrolls strengths more effectively. Maxi & Kuyt are just not fast or good crossers.

Added to that, Carroll is out of form.
 
Look, I'm all for the importance of squad, and playing different formations, styles, approaches to games etc. Christ, I've said it often enough.

But, maybe I'm being naive but if we spend 35M on a striker - I suspect him to play minimum 75% of the time.

Therefore, if he's going to play; how are we as a team going to play?
 
Very easy we need another top class CM alongside Gerrard who can dominate the middl of the park. Buy two wide players who can cross the ball.

I thought from the first game Carroll played he didn't fit our current system but if anyone can work it out I'm sure Kenny can.
 
Andy will fit into the team quite capably once we have decent wingers and fullbacks who can get crosses in. However, no player should be guaranteed an automatic starting place. Let's get the quality in and have a look at the overall shape of the squad.

Ryan, its way too early to judge and write Carroll off.
 
If we get his match fitness back up to how he was pre-injury, I won't be concerned with his pace. From the first half of the year with Newcastle, he displayed plenty of it, and I think he is still very capable of it. Movement is another issue.
 
Yesterday he showed some deft touches and nice interplay. yesterday our formation let us down, not carroll. He'll link well when given more support
 
I think Sven or someone like that has raised this point a number of times since January (albeit in their own interminable style).

If I'm honest, I thought Carroll was an unnecessary purchase at the time and I still think so now. We paid a massive premium to get him in January and got next to no value out of him this season (which was entirely forseeable). I suppose there is the argument of making a statement of intent and giving the club a bit of a lift, but still it seemed rushed and the whole argument of Carroll's fee being driven by Torres' was just bizarre.

Perhaps there is some overarching grand plan that will become clear to us next season when we see how the team plays and we can all guess that it involves the introduction of wingers, but it feels like we gambled big time when perhaps we didn't quite need to.
 
Nobody said this after his Man City performance

At the end of the day, if he's good enough, it'll work.
 
I think there was a need to buy another striker in jan, sadly I don't think that striker should have been carroll. At least not until the summer anyway. Let him have a settled first year on the prem then get him in the summer. His price tag wouldn't have gone up and we could see how he coped.


But big andy will be a beast with a run of games
 
Im guessing the plan is to bring in a left fullback with good delivery ala Baines and a wide player who can cross or run beyond him like Young. With Gerrard playing off him and making 3rd man runs beyond him we'll have more options going into next season whether it be 433/442 or whatever
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=45372.msg1334120#msg1334120 date=1305535685]
Nobody said this after his Man City performance

At the end of the day, if he's good enough, it'll work.
[/quote]

to be fair, besides the goals i didnt think he had much of an impact, which is kinda what i expect from him, he'l score boss goals but thats about it, he hasnt even been holdin the ball up that well, and thats meanta be what he does

but im givin him the benefit of the doubt for now, i think the england under 21 tournament will do him some good
 
[quote author=Lewy link=topic=45372.msg1334134#msg1334134 date=1305537635]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=45372.msg1334120#msg1334120 date=1305535685]
Nobody said this after his Man City performance

At the end of the day, if he's good enough, it'll work.
[/quote]

to be fair, besides the goals i didnt think he had much of an impact, which is kinda what i expect from him, he'l score boss goals but thats about it, he hasnt even been holdin the ball up that well, and thats meanta be what he does

but im givin him the benefit of the doubt for now, i think the england under 21 tournament will do him some good
[/quote]

I'll be the pedant here.

If he keeps scoring goals, I couldn't give a shit if he doesnt perfect the marseille roulette..
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=45372.msg1334137#msg1334137 date=1305538076]
[quote author=Lewy link=topic=45372.msg1334134#msg1334134 date=1305537635]
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=45372.msg1334120#msg1334120 date=1305535685]
Nobody said this after his Man City performance

At the end of the day, if he's good enough, it'll work.
[/quote]

to be fair, besides the goals i didnt think he had much of an impact, which is kinda what i expect from him, he'l score boss goals but thats about it, he hasnt even been holdin the ball up that well, and thats meanta be what he does

but im givin him the benefit of the doubt for now, i think the england under 21 tournament will do him some good
[/quote]

I'll be the pedant here.

If he keeps scoring goals, I couldn't give a shit if he doesnt perfect the marseille roulette..
[/quote]

i agree, but id much rather have the whole team bangin them in and us gettin 5 goals every other week than andy just gettin a couple every 4 games or something
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=45372.msg1334120#msg1334120 date=1305535685]
Nobody said this after his Man City performance

At the end of the day, if he's good enough, it'll work.
[/quote]

People never post things like this when we're winning or the player mentioned has a good game.
You should know that by now mate..

Carroll will be fine. No problem at all. I said it yesterday and I'll say it again, it gives us another dimension and we're able to change play and have more ways than one to attack.

Yesterday our midfield was non excistent for a while, both Maxi and Kuyt have below average games and Suarez wasnt on song either. If someone is acutally suggesting that this is down purely to Carroll I can only laugh. We couldnt hit the target to save our life yesterday. End off.

And to take it one step further, how can Spurs play such a good passing game with Crouch on top on his own? If it works for them it can sure as hell work for us with Carroll.
 
I think some have already mentioned these two issues.
Firstly Carroll was not match fit, which impacted badly on his and the teams performance, he was not fully match fit when he picked up this latest injury, Kenny has already said in the press he did not really want to pitch him in, but felt he had no alternative. That could be debatable.

I think this criticism of Carroll , or the formation at least, masks the real problem yesterday, in that we missed Miereles hugely, and a centre midfield of golden chunks and Spearing was not just good enough, that is why our midfield was so ineffective.

regards
 
As already been said we need a winger.

Suarez is perfectly suited for the 4-3-3 playing on the wing and we need another player in this mould.

I've suggested a player like Ruiz from Twente. There are others - more expensive ones as well of course.

Carroll will be fine. I'm positive.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=45372.msg1334119#msg1334119 date=1305535541]
I think Sven or someone like that has raised this point a number of times since January (albeit in their own interminable style).

If I'm honest, I thought Carroll was an unnecessary purchase at the time and I still think so now. We paid a massive premium to get him in January and got next to no value out of him this season (which was entirely forseeable). I suppose there is the argument of making a statement of intent and giving the club a bit of a lift, but still it seemed rushed and the whole argument of Carroll's fee being driven by Torres' was just bizarre.

Perhaps there is some overarching grand plan that will become clear to us next season when we see how the team plays and we can all guess that it involves the introduction of wingers, but it feels like we gambled big time when perhaps we didn't quite need to.
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. I wanted Carroll off and Shelvey on at half time.

But it is worth noting that we have looked pretty good with Carroll in the team before and it was his first game back. He definitely shouldn't have started. Kenny got it all wrong yesterday.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45372.msg1334028#msg1334028 date=1305516331]
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=45372.msg1334024#msg1334024 date=1305515231]
We buy wingers. If Meireles played instead of Maxi we would have fared better i reckon. Having more men in the middle would have been a big bonus.
[/quote]

So we need more wingers and also more men in the middle?

Are we going to play with 13 men?
[/quote]

We need better wingers, anyway. We wouldn't need an extra man in the middle if the wingers were good enough to draw their players out from their positions to track.
 
Let me tell you what I think we all want to say:

"He was only signed to make the fans feel good after Torres went"

I still don't see the point of signing him, I really don't understand why we threw away £35M for him, because thats what we have done. I really don't expect more than what we have seen of him this season - I know its harsh but I don't see what we have signed here or what he brings to the team.

Before you all start giving it the big moron speech - search within your deepest thoughts and you know you have said it more than once this season - "We spent 35M on him ? - why ?"
 
I'd like to give both Carroll and the management team the benefit of the doubt here.

As I said above, I do feel the transfer was rushed and that we could've waited till the summer, but he's here now and we have an opportunity to make it work. Providing Carroll proves to be good enough, I'd like to think we can bring in the right players to make it happen.

The time to judge properly will be next season.
 
Perhaps this would have been moot if we managed to sign someone like Young at the last minute.

We know we tried, and we all acknowledge that Carroll's signing makes more sense with a proper winger.
 
With Gerrard and Meireles in the middle instead of Lucas/spearing, we'll see a totally different Carroll.
 
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