Trent vs Bradders or A.N. Other

[Frogfish]

I posted this elsewhere as a reply but though it a decent thread discussion. Who suits us (Slot's tactics) better?

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Trent : generational talent as a creator/distributor. Was at his best when playing higher up the pitch under Klopp (before he started inverting). His assists have dropped off in the past 2½ seasons in comparison.

2018-2022 he was at his best with 15, 15, 9, and 18 (all comps). He's then gone 10, 9 and 6 (so far this season so on for roughly the same 10-12).

Bradders : far more defensive-minded (but still naive at times as he's just 21). Has more pace than Trent but is not what I'd call fast. Over-laps far more than Trent and his recent stats (past 18 months) see him with better assists and goals per match stats. Tracks back far better even though he's far from the total package.

Interesting to see the Who's Scored Strengths and Weaknesses for Bradley :
Tackling - Very Strong
Holding on to the ball - Strong
Passing - Strong
Through balls - Strong
Gets fouled often
Likes to tackle
Commits fouls often
Player has no significant weaknesses.

There are no significant minutes for Bradley this season so looking at last season (head to head vs TAA) :-
Trent 2,161 mins vs Bradders 761 mins

Tackles : Bradley 3.89 per 90 mins vs Trent 1.51 per 90 mins
interceptions : Bradley 1.21 per 90 mins vs Trent 1.25 per 90 mins
Ground Duels : Bradley 14.09 per 90 mins (won 8.14 ) vs Trent 7.27 per 90 mins (won 3.23)
Dribbled Past (both are very bad!) : Bradley 1.70 per 90 mins vs Trent 2.41 per 90 mins
Goals scored : both are 0.12 per 90 mins
Goal Involvement : Bradley 0.47 per 90 mins vs Trent 0.29 per 90 mins
Assists : Bradley 0.35 per 90 mins vs Trent 0.17 per 90 mins
Mins per assist : Bradley 254 mins vs Trent 540 mins
Key Passes : Bradley 1.82 per 90 mins vs Trent 2.62 per 90 mins

So who is more suited to the PL ?
IMO I think Bradders is overall (esp. vs weaker opposition - i.e. most teams, though his highest ever FotMob rating 9/10 was vs Real Madrid), however Trent can be a more potent key to unlock certain games, certainly against better opposition. That said I'm not 100% sure that Bradders is the solution to RB but he's certainly a very good option.
If we are looking for the perfect RB then Trent is a B- and Bradders currently a B. I like that we are better defensively with him in the team and that he overlaps and gets involved on the edge of the box far more (helping out our right sided attackers) as well as being a more determined runner (track backs) and tackler.

 

[StevieM]

There’s my vote cast.

It’s Trent every day of the week and twice at weekends.

 

[keniget]

"Bradders" is still pretty raw. It's easier to nurture a player like this when you're a Brighton / Brentford / Bournemouth... all the B teams. Harder when you're trying to compete for titles (though we'll see if that is the case this summer).

If Trent leaves, we need to buy and my guess is that we will.

 

[SummerOnions]

I reckon Bradley would be my vote in 2 years time but not now

 

[Frogfish]

There’s my vote cast.

It’s Trent every day of the week and twice at weekends.

Interesting but why? I mean the stats clearly show that Bradley is stronger in some areas (inc. assists by a ratio of 2:1, of course from a limited sample size but not that limited), he's much younger so has a high ceiling to reach and so can get much better (see Keniget's post though) and likely suits Slot's tactics better.

Of course Slot says Trent goes straight back in when fit but then he's more experienced and to drop him for Bradley would mean Trent would be 100% on is way. The inversion is now less too - I think Slot isn't keen on Trent doing that though he wants to see him higher up the pitch.

It's not so clear cut for me and likely one or the other suits different opposition better.

 

[MomoWASright]

Bradders. I don’t give a hoot about stats or generational talent bullshit after THAT yellow performance against Man U. That was unforgivable.

 

[StevieM]

Interesting but why? I mean the stats clearly show that Bradley is stronger in some areas (inc. assists by a ratio of 2:1, of course from a limited sample size but not that limited), he's much younger so has a high ceiling to reach and so can get much better (see Keniget's post though) and likely suits Slot's tactics better.

Of course Slot says Trent goes straight back in when fit but then he's more experienced and to drop him for Bradley would mean Trent would be 100% on is way. The inversion is now less too - I think Slot isn't keen on Trent doing that though he wants to see him higher up the pitch.

It's not so clear cut for me and likely one or the other suits different opposition better.

Well, you’re kind of answering your question there.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of Bradley and think he’s an excellent prospect, not lest because he’s my home country’s captain - but that doesn’t mean he’s got the ability of Trent.

Small sample size is the first ref flag and I have no real desire to have another argument with you over the “per” 90 minute stat, but needless to say players that come on late tend to skew higher in things like goals and assists for minutes played.

It’s also, in Trent’s case, not just about the “assist” particularly when he’s sitting deeper or inverting deeply (as he did last year) - because he’s not proving “the assist” he’s more likely providing the pass before that unlocks either a goal scoring opportunity.

There is a stat - but don’t know where to find the data - I’d imagine it’s the type of more in depth metric the boffins look at, but is yo hard to explain to us plebs.

The assist stat that trumps all is the one that shows Trent has made more assists than any other defender in the the history of the EPL - so while I appreciate you’re trying to show Bradley has a better assist rate this season than Trent because he’s has a high per minute rate - that per minute rate extrapolated over a season would equate to 13 assists - which would equal the record of assists in a season fir a defender (currently held by Trent) - so unfortunately it’s somewhat misleading, as pretty as it looks.

Again, the short and curlies is, you’re misinterpreting the stats a teeny bit - Bradley’s good, but not at Trent level in an attacking sense.

Much better at defending, so I agree with you about certain games where he might be useful.

That’s also partly to do with who plays on the left - in Robbo & Trent’s best seasons, they were given freedom to not get high up the pitch - hence the assist rates - but that had its problems, because it meant we played with 2 at the back and relied to DMs to cover the space in behind - we all know how that ended up… with teams constantly attacking that space and us getting fucked sideways on transition when poor old Fabinho got ran into the ground.

Slot’s nit going to do that - you see Trent not quite overlapping and holding a slightly deeper role to whoever’s on the left - where they get further up and support Diaz/Gakpo wide.

Bradley’s a more traditional FB - so I reckon whoever we sign for LB, is going to be a counter balance to whoever’s playing at RB.

Anyway the TLDR is - yer stats are misleading, the actual numbers support Trent and we’re lucky to have such a good player in Bradley too.

 

[Squiggles]

Trent for now but potentially Bradley for the future. I'm still reeling at Trent for the United game, so it's probably not the best time to ask!

I think Bradley is probably a better tactical fit for a manager who wants more control and has a winger ahead who always cuts inside, but Trent's quality on the ball still gives him the net advantage, IMHO. I feel I'm still assessing Bradley, TBH. There were some sensational games at the start, a few decent games, a few mixed and an injury amidst all that.

I will say that having Bradley makes me far more relaxed about the Trent situation and Slot should give him plenty of minutes.

 

[Modo]

This uncertainty about Bradley always seems to pop up after he's had a mediocre or bad game.
Maybe people need to start factoring in that he just like Tsimikas needs a few games to get going. This stop-start thing doesn't work for everyone.
Bradley was really good when he got a chance to play a few matches in a row when Trent was injured.
Remember last season?

 

[bluebell]

I think its worth discussing how we use both of them effectively? Conor has injury issues but is a better RB over all. Trent provided clutch moments at the other end, Conor could never do

 

[Frogfish]

Small sample size is the first ref flag and I have no real desire to have another argument with you over the “per” 90 minute stat, but needless to say players that come on late tend to skew higher in things like goals and assists for minutes played.

I'll just address a few of those concerns, including the big two (sample size and goal involvement)!

Considering FBs are often subbed off (TAA aves. 79 mins per match exc. injury time) then Bradley's mins work out to roughly a 10 full games last season. So of course that's not a full season but it's not insignificant ... and to Trent's advantage is the more you play then the better the understanding you should have with your team-mates - which should amount to better stats in defence and attack. So theoretically the more Bradley plays in the team the better his stats should be.

Oh and he actually played 1,475 mins in 2023/4 so the sample size is much larger than I thought.

The per 90 mins stat is the best method by far of making a comparison. It includes all interactions in all matches of course.

It’s also, in Trent’s case, not just about the “assist” particularly when he’s sitting deeper or inverting deeply (as he did last year) - because he’s not proving “the assist” he’s more likely providing the pass before that unlocks either a goal scoring opportunity.

There is a stat - but don’t know where to find the data - I’d imagine it’s the type of more in depth metric the boffins look at, but is yo hard to explain to us plebs.

The assist stat that trumps all is the one that shows Trent has made more assists than any other defender in the the history of the EPL - so while I appreciate you’re trying to show Bradley has a better assist rate this season than Trent because he’s has a high per minute rate - that per minute rate extrapolated over a season would equate to 13 assists - which would equal the record of assists in a season fir a defender (currently held by Trent) - so unfortunately it’s somewhat misleading, as pretty as it looks.

There is a stat for Goal Involvement above (which would include your example of a critical pass in the build-up) :
Goal Involvement : Bradley 0.47 per 90 mins vs Trent 0.29 per 90 mins so virtually x2 better for Bradley.

Now as for you using all historical data for Trent to show his assist rate - it's clearly irrelevant to include 7-8 seasons ! He's not playing as he was under Klopp in the early days - which is why I listed assists per season and how they have dropped off and why I've concentrated on the past 2.5 seasons which clearly are the most relevant. If his assists have dropped off then we should be seeing improvements in other areas (defence for example) - we're not.

They may be some validity in the second half stats being better as far as assists and goals is concerned (but it surprised me the other day when this was discussed, to see that some teams actually score more in the first half - I think Arsenal and City were in that group). So coming on late - when a team may be consolidating a lead and not attacking as much - could be a double edged sword.

I'll just add another interesting stat I've just come across, Dribbled Past :
Bradley 1
TAA 13 (x7 mins played)

 

[binomial]

Still early days with Bradley and for me he hasn't had a fair crack at the whip yet.

A lot of his games have come playing with the 2nd team....usually alongside Quansah and Doak/Harvey ahead of him. Want to see more of him feature in our best (or close to) XI and in more competitive games.

He gets my vote purely because of the Madrid game earlier this season and the Chelsea 1 last. The best, most complete RB performances of any game in the last 18 months.

 

[StevieM]

I'll just address a few of those concerns, including the big two (sample size and goal involvement)!

Considering FBs are often subbed off (TAA aves. 79 mins per match exc. injury time) then Bradley's mins work out to roughly a 10 full games last season. So of course that's not a full season but it's not insignificant ... and to Trent's advantage is the more you play then the better the understanding you should have with your team-mates - which should amount to better stats in defence and attack. So theoretically the more Bradley plays in the team the better his stats should be.

The per 90 mins stat is the best method by far of making a comparison. It includes all interactions in all matches of course.



There is a stat for Goal Involvement above (which would include your example of a critical pass in the build-up) :
Goal Involvement : Bradley 0.47 per 90 mins vs Trent 0.29 per 90 mins so virtually x2 better for Bradley.

Now as for you using all historical data for Trent to show his assist rate - it's clearly irrelevant to include 7-8 seasons ! He's not playing as he was under Klopp in the early days - which is why I listed assists per season and how they have dropped off and why I've concentrated on the past 2.5 seasons which clearly are the most relevant. If his assists have dropped off then we should be seeing improvements in other areas (defence for example) - we're not.

They may be some validity in the second half stats being better as far as assists and goals is concerned (but it surprised me the other day when this was discussed, to see that some teams actually score more in the first half - I think Arsenal and City were in that group). So coming on late - when a team may be consolidating a lead and not attacking as much - could be a double edged sword.

I'll just add another interesting stat I've just come across, Dribbled Past :
Bradley 1
TAA 13 (x7 mins played)

It’s not correct to extrapolate from coming on as a substitute to infer the same impact across a game - it just means Bradley is good at coming on as a substitute and impacting a game in certain circumstances.

The more he plays the more his figure will regress - we went through that with Darwin, when you were banging on about how he was better than Salah

You can pretend historical data has no impact, but you’re wrong - all data is historical otherwise it wouldn’t be data, it’d be a projection. You always tend to want to ignore any data that doesn’t support your point.

Have a look and tell me which RB has the most assists in the EPL this season and tell me who it is - then try to tell me Bradley would have twice as many and where that would put him in the overall assists picture this season?

Again - your interesting stat is interesting, but not necessarily meaningful. It could mean a lot of things - like he’s been targeted, that Bradley hasn’t played against teams that have targeted the right side - it could mean nothing - a Quick Look says the 2nd most dribbled past defender is Robinson at Fulham, who leads the assist stats for defenders this season.

Bradley’s only played more than 30 minutes in a league game twice this season.

Also… where are you getting your stats from. - i clock Bradley as no goals and 1 assist this season (v Real Madrid), if that’s true your numbers are all rubbish.

Anyway.. I want to enjoy e4 of Landman

 

[Frogfish]

Worth noting who Bradley has played against in 2024/5 :

4-0 Bayer Leverkusen. 9'
2 : 0 Aston Villa 65'
3 - 2 Southampton 90'
2 : 0 (MotM) Real Madrid 87'
2 : 2 Manchester United 4'
0-1 Tottenham. 60'
4 : 0 Accrington 30'
2 : 1 Lille. 86'

I'll get around to 2023/4 later.

 

[Frogfish]

The more he plays the more his figure will regress - we went through that with Darwin, when you were banging on about how he was better than Salah

Oh fuck off I've never said he was better than Salah ! 🤣

 

[Frogfish]

can pretend historical data has no impact, but you’re wrong - all data is historical otherwise it wouldn’t be data, it’d be a projection. You always tend to want to ignore any data that doesn’t support your point.

But you are correlating out of date data as if relevant to today - it isn't in any shape or form. Trent doesn't play that way any more (that's like saying Salah is as fast today as he always was) and Slot's tactics are very different to those of Klopp so let's look at what impact a player is having today (and I included 2.5 years of data there not just the past month !

 

[Frogfish]

Anyway.. I want to enjoy e4 of Landman

Just finished it - excellent series.

 

[Frogfish]

Also… where are you getting your stats from. - i clock Bradley as no goals and 1 assist this season (v Real Madrid), if that’s true your numbers are all rubbish.

Who's Scored, Footystats, Fotmob, the PL, Statmuse, all the usual respected sites.

Errr open your eyes? The stats are from 2023/4 not this season where Bradley hasn't got enough minutes to make any conclusions whatsover !

 

[mark1975]

"Bradders" is still pretty raw. It's easier to nurture a player like this when you're a Brighton / Brentford / Bournemouth... all the B teams. Harder when you're trying to compete for titles (though we'll see if that is the case this summer).

If Trent leaves, we need to buy and my guess is that we will.

I tend to agree. We've seen a bit of second season syndrome with both Bradley and to more of an extent with Quansah. It's easy to get carried away early and for their flaws or lack of suitability to reveal itself as time moves on. I think he's a great prospect and he has the potential to have a bright future and for him to be a player who could be similar to Robbo, with the right support and game time. But it takes time, you need experience, you need to be able to take these players out the firing line when they're out of form and overawed by the expectation of doing it game after game.

 

[StevieM]

Who's Scored, Footystats, Fotmob, the PL, Statmuse, all the usual respected sites.

Errr open your eyes? The stats are from 2023/4 not this season where Bradley hasn't got enough minutes to make any conclusions whatsover !

That’s kind of my point - and it’s hard to use data from last season because Trent was utilised in a different way.

What I’m saying is, historical data suggests that Trent is not only one of, but the best RB in the EPL.

This seasons stats are backing that up, because he’s posting the best RB stats in the league in an attacking sense.

Bradley’s great, but he’s not played consistently enough over a large enough period of time to put him ahead of Trent / you have to really cherry pick and manipulate the stats to support that.

None of this means Bradley can’t be a very good RB for us, or that he isn’t a great option if Trent does leave at the end of the season. Bradley has certashown he “could” have a very high ceiling.

At the minute it has to be Trent. Next season, maybe it’s Bradley with Gomez backing him up and a more attack minded LB like Kerkez.

 

[Holle]

Bradley.

Trent can fuck off. Let him rot on the bench.

 

[Holle]

Oh, and I also have a stat for you.

Trent is the most dribbled by player in the PL. By a country mile.

Best RB my arse.

 

[rurikbird]

A few people mentioned Bradley being better than Trent at defending - but I think the stats Froggy posted (great work BTW!) only show him being significantly more aggressive than Trent - more duels contested and more tackles. As the ultimate purpose of defending is conceding fewer chances and goals, more aggressive doesn’t automatically mean better at defending. Take Virgil for example – he has superb numbers for “dribbled past” (an area where both Trent and Bradley struggle), but his number of tackles or duels contested per game is probably below an average Everton CB. It’s harder to quantify defensive work with stats and you have to rely more on the eye test or overall team stats.

For me, Bradley is undeniably more willing to get involved in the dirty work than Trent and put his body where it hurts (sometimes literally, hence his poor injury record so far). However when it comes to intelligent defensive positioning and not letting a winger beat you one on one, he’s been found wanting on more than one occasion and I’m not sure if I would say he necessarily makes our right side more solid and impenetrable than Trent. He does, however, contribute to the whole team performing a more aggressive and energetic press, but whether that outweighs the qualities that Trent brings is an open question for me. For now, probably not.

 

[MomoWASright]

Ninja Turtles mullered.

Trent 0 Bradley 1.

 

[localny]

Trent has a cracking right foot. Like a Rory McIlroy 3 Iron. When it works.

He makes game changing passes. But he also makes game changing mistakes.

He doesn't work hard, and he's an average defender. He's very easy to get around. This is why he gets targeted. Plus his mind wanders.

If he wasn't from Liverpool, would we rate him so highly.

I really think he's overrated because he's English, he's from Liverpool.

For me, Bradley is a MUCH better defender, because he wins those duels. Positioning, etc, I can't comment on, but Trent hasn't really scored high on that side as far as I can see.

 

[Fabio]

Bradley is a better right back
Trent is a much better footballer

I think we'll buy a RB, as if trent goes, we're still light on the ground in that position. I don't believe in buying inferior players for depth; we should be buying to replace.

Think thats all there is to say tbh

 

[dogboy]

Oh, please please don't start calling him "Bradders", that sounds like a rugby players' best man.

 

[Woland]

Tayto Terrier obv

 

[localny]

Introducing two types

Rugger Buggers (lads in Dublin -usually D4 types - in the 1990s wearing the collars up)
Rugger Huggers (the women with fake tans who loved them)