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Trent’s new position

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I would play Trent in a pivot role between defense and midfield. Like a Pirlo or a Dunga. Or even a Matthaus if you like. Players like these are a rarity in today's game. A modern-day libero if you like. Remember Stevie in his latter years, where he played mostly as a DM but with freedom to roam anywhere incl. joining in attacks.

Trent's not quite there yet as his discipline and positioning have a lot of room for improvement, but i think he can excel if given the chance to groom him for that role. I think we saw a glimpse of how lethal he can be in his cameo on Sunday.
 
I would play Trent in a pivot role between defense and midfield. Like a Pirlo or a Dunga. Or even a Matthaus if you like. Players like these are a rarity in today's game. A modern-day libero if you like. Remember Stevie in his latter years, where he played mostly as a DM but with freedom to roam anywhere incl. joining in attacks.

Trent's not quite there yet as his discipline and positioning have a lot of room for improvement, but i think he can excel if given the chance to groom him for that role. I think we saw a glimpse of how lethal he can be in his cameo on Sunday.

Yup. When he said "I want to play the game, not the position" before the World Cup he was ridiculed, but in truth he is one of the few players who can actually claim to be able to "play the game". Hopefully Klopp will be eventually able to carve out a position that will allow him to do just that.
 
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Maybe he's just more advanced than most in the game, than we give him credit for and he's been held back by this misunderstanding.

He has a range of passing and vision not many players in the game today have.
 
I guarantee you guys that Hendo would manage being FB from now until the end of the season. He is smart enough to foul when necessary and he has shown great energy occasionally, he'd be able to pick his spots more from that position if his role wasn't to bomb forward.

Again... I'd be buying a FB in the summer... but he's our best option right now... and he shouldn't be in front of Trent at all at this point.
 
I've never been against Trent in midfield, but historically Klopps midfields are work-horses with limited creativity. If we do end up creating a bespoke midfield position in the side, with a dedicated RB, that is a whole different proposition. For now I'm happy enough to try him stepping into midfield, similar to the Arsenal game. If Konate is fit and on-form then he's capable of covering the space. I wouldn't risk it with either Matip or Gomez at RCB.
 
He played well in midfield, but we saw his true class come when he was on the byline. Maybe if he's the right CM he would overlap with our RW in the way Hendo tries to, and Elliot often does.

However this is addressing the gap that Trent himself is creating by not doing this enough when he is playing at RB and drifts into the middle.
 


Actually an insightful discussion on RedMenTV, analyzing Trent’s position and our new set-up vs Arsenal. Near the end of the video they make a point about whether it’s a good thing we seem to be moving in the direction of copying what Arsenal and Man City are doing rather than innovating and letting others catch up to us - not sure I know the answer, but any kind of practically workable system is much better than one built on delusional assumptions (asking 30+ Fabinho, Hendo and Thiago to outpress and outrun opponents) which has been the case for most of this season.
 
Judging by lack of activity in this thread, after all the endless debates now that Trent actually plays in midfield (well, kind of), no one gives a toss? 🙂 Anyway, here's a typically excellent article by Jonathan Wilson on the subject:
[article]
Maybe it’s time to welcome back the old fashioned wing-half – in modern guise

Could Trent Alexander-Arnold’s travails at Liverpool be helped by stepping inside into midfield as the full-back role evolves?

4501.jpg


One of the easiest and most misleading pieces of footballing received wisdom is that everything is cyclical. Wait long enough, the great drum of history will revolve again and the same ideas will come back round, be that sharp side-partings, the back three, Howard Webb apologising to Brighton or Roy Hodgson managing Crystal Palace. Except time is not a flat circle. Each iteration is different because it comes with knowledge of what went before.

Watch Manchester City in possession. They have a centre-forward and two wide men. They have Kevin De Bruyne and Bernardo Silva or Ilkay Gündogan as “free 8s”, essentially old-fashioned inside-forwards. They like to have five outfielders behind the ball, who will usually form a trapezoid shape: a line of three defenders and two deep-lying midfielders. Show that to Herbert Chapman and, while he may think City could be a little more direct, he would understand what he was seeing. This is essentially a W-M.

But this is not Pep Guardiola simply appropriating a formation from almost a century ago. A lot has happened since, not least the coming of zonal marking, so the game is no longer the series of individual battles it was in Chapman’s day. Indeed, it’s entirely likely Guardiola is yet to form strong opinions on Arsenal’s title-winners of 1930-31 (although you suspect that in the key dispute of the age he would go against Chapman and favour the ball-playing qualities of Jack Butler at centre-half over the gangling stopper Herbie Roberts). Rather it’s that the trapezoid shape has proved over time extremely effective at preventing counterattacks.

That’s why the 3-4-2-1 had its brief vogue, most notably as Chelsea won the league under Antonio Conte in 2016-17. But the problem with that shape, as has subsequently been seen at Chelsea and Tottenham, is that while it may be solid, it is very dependent on the wing-backs to provide width and on the individual inspiration of the two creators playing off the striker. It can become predictable.

If you want to be flexible, then, how can you create that three-two anti-counter trapezium? Often teams playing a back four would allow both full-backs to advance, with a holding midfielder dropping in between the centre-backs to create the line of three. Or one full-back would go forward with the other tucking in alongside the two central defenders.

That was how it worked for Guardiola at Barcelona, when Dani Alves would habitually charge forward supporting David Villa on the outside, with Sergio Busquets slipping between the central defenders or Eric Abidal shuffling across. At Bayern, though, blessed with a player as tactically accomplished as Philipp Lahm, Guardiola began experimenting with having one of the full-backs advancing into a deep-lying midfield role, rather than providing attacking width.

3364.jpg


At City, Guardiola has sometimes had two attacking full-backs who would overlap – Bacary Sagna or Jesús Navas and Gaël Clichy or Aleksandar Kolarov in his first season, for instance – but he has also tried the Lahm protocol, occasionally with Fabian Delph, most successfully with João Cancelo, most implausibly with Bernardo Silva, and most recently with John Stones – even if, in Tuesday’s win against Bayern Munich, Stones was stepping up from a central position, with Manuel Akanji and Nathan Aké almost as old-school, orthodox defensive full-backs; it may be that the solidity of Aké is one of the factors in Jack Grealish’s run of form, that he no longer has Cancelo inside him, impinging on the space he would naturally like to attack.

For three decades full-backs have been at the forefront of tactical development. As they have become increasingly attacking, so wingers have increasingly cut infield, which in turn made possible the rise of the false 9. Guardiola, so far, is unusual in his use of the full-back as an auxiliary wing-half, but it may be that this is the logical next step in the general development of the full-back.

There is, perhaps, a gradual turn against the modish idea that full-back is an essentially attacking position. For full-backs to operate as high as, say, Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson have for Liverpool, demands the press be all but perfect. If it is not, as in 2020-21 and again this season, opponents can exploit the space behind the full-back. When Mauricio Pochettino was at Tottenham, he in effect had four wing-backs on rotation because of the physical demands on them covering the length of the pitch; having them shuffle into midfield at least part of the time may be a way of mitigating the strain.

There has long been an argument that Alexander-Arnold would be better deployed as a midfielder rather than as a right-back, initially on the slightly spurious grounds that it would involve him in the game more (a line of thought that seems to underestimate just how important the full-back position is in modern football), and more recently because, as Liverpool’s press has faltered, Alexander-Arnold’s defensive shortcomings have been exposed.

How plausible the idea of Alexander-Arnold as a hybrid full-back/wing-half is remains debatable. Appealing as the prospect of him dictating the play from deep may be, it would if anything place more demands on the defensive side of his game, while reducing his crossing opportunities and limiting his interactions with Mohamed Salah, which were such a key part of Liverpool’s play last season, his overlaps encouraging Salah’s darts infield.

But then if Liverpool’s press improves again, those defensive issues may recede and it’s just about possible to imagine a future in which Alexander-Arnold can be both an overlapping full-back and a full-back/wing-half. Given that Jordan Henderson will be 33 in June, it may be too late, but the Liverpool captain, a very good crosser of the ball, would seem to have the ideal game to interlock with an Alexander-Arnold who sometimes bombs on and sometimes tucks in.

The issue, though, goes beyond specifics. For 60 years full-backs have been become increasingly attacking, to the point that almost every full-back is in effect a wing-back. The question was always what came next: how would full-backs evolve when there was no more attacking to be done. This, perhaps, is the answer: by helping to recreate a shape in possession that is itself almost a century old. The spiral of history revolves again.
[/article]
 
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Judging by lack of activity in this thread, after all the endless debates now that Trent actually plays in midfield (well, kind of), no one gives a toss? 🙂 Anyway, here's a typically excellent article by Jonathan Wilson on the subject:
[article]
Maybe it’s time to welcome back the old fashioned wing-half – in modern guise

Could Trent Alexander-Arnold’s travails at Liverpool be helped by stepping inside into midfield as the full-back role evolves?

4501.jpg


One of the easiest and most misleading pieces of footballing received wisdom is that everything is cyclical. Wait long enough, the great drum of history will revolve again and the same ideas will come back round, be that sharp side-partings, the back three, Howard Webb apologising to Brighton or Roy Hodgson managing Crystal Palace. Except time is not a flat circle. Each iteration is different because it comes with knowledge of what went before.

Watch Manchester City in possession. They have a centre-forward and two wide men. They have Kevin De Bruyne and Bernardo Silva or Ilkay Gündogan as “free 8s”, essentially old-fashioned inside-forwards. They like to have five outfielders behind the ball, who will usually form a trapezoid shape: a line of three defenders and two deep-lying midfielders. Show that to Herbert Chapman and, while he may think City could be a little more direct, he would understand what he was seeing. This is essentially a W-M.

But this is not Pep Guardiola simply appropriating a formation from almost a century ago. A lot has happened since, not least the coming of zonal marking, so the game is no longer the series of individual battles it was in Chapman’s day. Indeed, it’s entirely likely Guardiola is yet to form strong opinions on Arsenal’s title-winners of 1930-31 (although you suspect that in the key dispute of the age he would go against Chapman and favour the ball-playing qualities of Jack Butler at centre-half over the gangling stopper Herbie Roberts). Rather it’s that the trapezoid shape has proved over time extremely effective at preventing counterattacks.

That’s why the 3-4-2-1 had its brief vogue, most notably as Chelsea won the league under Antonio Conte in 2016-17. But the problem with that shape, as has subsequently been seen at Chelsea and Tottenham, is that while it may be solid, it is very dependent on the wing-backs to provide width and on the individual inspiration of the two creators playing off the striker. It can become predictable.

If you want to be flexible, then, how can you create that three-two anti-counter trapezium? Often teams playing a back four would allow both full-backs to advance, with a holding midfielder dropping in between the centre-backs to create the line of three. Or one full-back would go forward with the other tucking in alongside the two central defenders.

That was how it worked for Guardiola at Barcelona, when Dani Alves would habitually charge forward supporting David Villa on the outside, with Sergio Busquets slipping between the central defenders or Eric Abidal shuffling across. At Bayern, though, blessed with a player as tactically accomplished as Philipp Lahm, Guardiola began experimenting with having one of the full-backs advancing into a deep-lying midfield role, rather than providing attacking width.

3364.jpg


At City, Guardiola has sometimes had two attacking full-backs who would overlap – Bacary Sagna or Jesús Navas and Gaël Clichy or Aleksandar Kolarov in his first season, for instance – but he has also tried the Lahm protocol, occasionally with Fabian Delph, most successfully with João Cancelo, most implausibly with Bernardo Silva, and most recently with John Stones – even if, in Tuesday’s win against Bayern Munich, Stones was stepping up from a central position, with Manuel Akanji and Nathan Aké almost as old-school, orthodox defensive full-backs; it may be that the solidity of Aké is one of the factors in Jack Grealish’s run of form, that he no longer has Cancelo inside him, impinging on the space he would naturally like to attack.

For three decades full-backs have been at the forefront of tactical development. As they have become increasingly attacking, so wingers have increasingly cut infield, which in turn made possible the rise of the false 9. Guardiola, so far, is unusual in his use of the full-back as an auxiliary wing-half, but it may be that this is the logical next step in the general development of the full-back.

There is, perhaps, a gradual turn against the modish idea that full-back is an essentially attacking position. For full-backs to operate as high as, say, Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson have for Liverpool, demands the press be all but perfect. If it is not, as in 2020-21 and again this season, opponents can exploit the space behind the full-back. When Mauricio Pochettino was at Tottenham, he in effect had four wing-backs on rotation because of the physical demands on them covering the length of the pitch; having them shuffle into midfield at least part of the time may be a way of mitigating the strain.

There has long been an argument that Alexander-Arnold would be better deployed as a midfielder rather than as a right-back, initially on the slightly spurious grounds that it would involve him in the game more (a line of thought that seems to underestimate just how important the full-back position is in modern football), and more recently because, as Liverpool’s press has faltered, Alexander-Arnold’s defensive shortcomings have been exposed.

How plausible the idea of Alexander-Arnold as a hybrid full-back/wing-half is remains debatable. Appealing as the prospect of him dictating the play from deep may be, it would if anything place more demands on the defensive side of his game, while reducing his crossing opportunities and limiting his interactions with Mohamed Salah, which were such a key part of Liverpool’s play last season, his overlaps encouraging Salah’s darts infield.

But then if Liverpool’s press improves again, those defensive issues may recede and it’s just about possible to imagine a future in which Alexander-Arnold can be both an overlapping full-back and a full-back/wing-half. Given that Jordan Henderson will be 33 in June, it may be too late, but the Liverpool captain, a very good crosser of the ball, would seem to have the ideal game to interlock with an Alexander-Arnold who sometimes bombs on and sometimes tucks in.

The issue, though, goes beyond specifics. For 60 years full-backs have been become increasingly attacking, to the point that almost every full-back is in effect a wing-back. The question was always what came next: how would full-backs evolve when there was no more attacking to be done. This, perhaps, is the answer: by helping to recreate a shape in possession that is itself almost a century old. The spiral of history revolves again.
[/article]

[article]
Appealing as the prospect of him dictating the play from deep may be, it would if anything place more demands on the defensive side of his game, while reducing his crossing opportunities and limiting his interactions with Mohamed Salah, which were such a key part of Liverpool’s play last season, his overlaps encouraging Salah’s darts infield.
[/article]

This is the part that concerns me. We were at our best with Trent overlapping Mo and crossing from the byline. Does the new idea offer enough offensive threat to compensate for an increased complexity in fulfilling defensive demands?

Time will tell.
 
[article]
Appealing as the prospect of him dictating the play from deep may be, it would if anything place more demands on the defensive side of his game, while reducing his crossing opportunities and limiting his interactions with Mohamed Salah, which were such a key part of Liverpool’s play last season, his overlaps encouraging Salah’s darts infield.
[/article]

This is the part that concerns me. We were at our best with Trent overlapping Mo and crossing from the byline. Does the new idea offer enough offensive threat to compensate for an increased complexity in fulfilling defensive demands?

Time will tell.

I think he can still do it in the attacking phase – remember where Trent was when he created the equalizer against Arsenal. The difference is that he will make diagonal runs from the middle to the outside to attack and (hopefully) back in position to defend – a bit like Hendo who also often ends up in the crossing position on the right touchline despite playing as a CM. The biggest thing for Klopp will be figuring out how to divide responsibilities between midfielders so that Trent's better defensive qualities (athleticism, ability to intercept) are used to the maximum, but someone else does things like tracking runners and holding the position, because this is where Trent is unreliable to say the least.
 
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Actually an insightful discussion on RedMenTV, analyzing Trent’s position and our new set-up vs Arsenal. Near the end of the video they make a point about whether it’s a good thing we seem to be moving in the direction of copying what Arsenal and Man City are doing rather than innovating and letting others catch up to us - not sure I know the answer, but any kind of practically workable system is much better than one built on delusional assumptions (asking 30+ Fabinho, Hendo and Thiago to outpress and outrun opponents) which has been the case for most of this season.



Solving how to get the best out of Trent is one of the biggest keys for Klopp in building his next team, if not the largest. It will dictate what we do in the Summer transfer window and as this season is a write off now, it's good to see Klopp experimenting.
 
Solving how to get the best out of Trent is one of the biggest keys for Klopp in building his next team, if not the largest. It will dictate what we do in the Summer transfer window and as this season is a write off now, it's good to see Klopp experimenting.

Yes, completely agree with this. At the start of this season I had a feeling Trent was going to have a monster season, dramatically increasing his output in terms of goals and assists. Instead the problems in midfield and other positions exposed his weaknesses and tarnished his image. But looking at the bigger picture, Trent is still very much the player we should be building the team around – world-class talent, all-time record-breaking attacking numbers in his position, local lad and entering his prime. It’s just for a combination of reasons the manager didn't find a way to use his qualities effectively – that's the #1 thing that needs to change next season.
 
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Actually an insightful discussion on RedMenTV, analyzing Trent’s position and our new set-up vs Arsenal. Near the end of the video they make a point about whether it’s a good thing we seem to be moving in the direction of copying what Arsenal and Man City are doing rather than innovating and letting others catch up to us - not sure I know the answer, but any kind of practically workable system is much better than one built on delusional assumptions (asking 30+ Fabinho, Hendo and Thiago to outpress and outrun opponents) which has been the case for most of this season.

We shouldn't be so proud as to not copy systems that are proven to work. And it suits both us and Trent so that's a bonus.
 
I think he can still do it in the attacking phase – remember where Trent was when he created the equalizer against Arsenal. The difference is that he will make diagonal runs from the middle to the outside to attack and (hopefully) back in position to defend – a bit like Hendo who also often ends up in the crossing position on the right touchline despite playing as a CM. The biggest thing for Klopp will be figuring out how to divide responsibilities between midfielders so that Trent's better defensive qualities (athleticism, ability to intercept) are used to the maximum, but someone else does things like tracking runners and holding the position, because this is where Trent is unreliable to say the least.
Given Hendo's drop off this year, and his advancing age, if Klopp is going to solve that conundrum then it will rely on buying the right TYPE of midfielder for RM. Who that may be I'm not sure but certainly a more defensive player than say MacAllister. Maybe Caicedo then.
 
Given Hendo's drop off this year, and his advancing age, if Klopp is going to solve that conundrum then it will rely on buying the right TYPE of midfielder for RM. Who that may be I'm not sure but certainly a more defensive player than say MacAllister. Maybe Caicedo then.

Bajcetic is actually similar profile to Caicedo, no? A “defensive” #8. Maybe we could use more than one, but at least we have someone of that type already. I think the biggest thing we’re currently missing in midfield is a “runner” - a version of a younger Hendo who will run 14 miles in every game, chip in with goals and assists and press anything that moves.
 
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In case anyone would like a short video refresher how special of a player Trent is. And this compilation doesn’t even include some of his shorter, but equally genius passes.
 
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Bajcetic is actually similar profile to Caicedo, no? A “defensive” #8. Maybe we could use more than one, but at least we have someone of that type already. I think the biggest thing we’re currently missing in midfield is a “runner” - a version of a younger Hendo who will run 14 miles in every game, chip in with goals and assists and press anything that moves.
Isn't that MacAllister?
I don't see Bajcetic as being athletic enough (pace) to cover behind Trent.
 
I think MacAllister is an “all-arounder,” a bit like Milner. Very useful player to have, of course, but I was talking about someone who specializes in covering huge amount of territory. Have to say, Mount is probably the closest to that profile among the midfielders we’ve been linked with so far.
 
Not many players in Football excite me anymore but watching Trent in attacking phases at times is proper Jizz worthy.
 
I have always said Trent would make a great midfielder. After all there is previous history on this, as Gerrard started at right back before moving into his usual midfield position. I never got the people who poopooed the idea

I am so happy to be proven right yet again.
 
Klopp : the formation suits us much better.

So this is definitely going to be the way this season - and hopefully fined tuned with new midfielders and the same next.
 
there were quite a few of those John Barnes at defensive midfield passes.
5000 passes made 4998 completed, 95% of those 3 yard sideways stuff.
 
I love the idea of Trent pushing forward and utilising this new role and I 100% think we should find an outlet for Trent's talent in this team, every day of the week. But when we play the savvy cunts of this world i.e. Madrid, City etc. how is this going to work without leaving someone exposed?
 
I have always said Trent would make a great midfielder. After all there is previous history on this, as Gerrard started at right back before moving into his usual midfield position. I never got the people who poopooed the idea

I am so happy to be proven right yet again.
Gerrard played like 2 games at right back I think.
If Trent can't track a single runner making a run behind at right back, he's not going to figure out what to do with 3 of them.
But this inverted right back role with an emphasis of other players making life easy for him is very good I think. It's amazing that we're building a team around a right back but the amount of involvement he can get in our attack really makes it worth it.
 
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