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Torres Staying? Pepe thinks so.......

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[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=40355.msg1108088#msg1108088 date=1274656004]
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=40355.msg1108017#msg1108017 date=1274631007]
If we sell gerrard we should buy rodwell. 19 years of age, reminds me of a young gerrard.
as for torres if we sell him we will need 2 strikers to replace him. dzeko/aguero ..
[/quote]

Why do you keep saying this zlatan? We have n chance of signing Rodwell. He goes to utd or stays where he is.
[/quote]

Im not sure, im just hoping we get him somehow
 
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=40355.msg1108136#msg1108136 date=1274678794]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=40355.msg1108088#msg1108088 date=1274656004]
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=40355.msg1108017#msg1108017 date=1274631007]
If we sell gerrard we should buy rodwell. 19 years of age, reminds me of a young gerrard.
as for torres if we sell him we will need 2 strikers to replace him. dzeko/aguero ..
[/quote]

Why do you keep saying this zlatan? We have n chance of signing Rodwell. He goes to utd or stays where he is.
[/quote]

Im not sure, im just hoping we get him somehow
[/quote]

We won't, get over it.
 
[quote author=the count link=topic=40355.msg1108013#msg1108013 date=1274629836]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40355.msg1108008#msg1108008 date=1274627287]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40355.msg1107994#msg1107994 date=1274624253]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40355.msg1107968#msg1107968 date=1274615481]
Mark we have absolutely no hope of competing without a major rebuild. Throw whatever Torres goal stats you want at me, I know how good he is but we have not won a thing with him and we won't do anything with him next year either.

He played 22 league games last year (scoring 18), he's going to the World Cup not fully fit and he'll most likely come back carrying some sort of injury.



[/quote]

would you sell him then? i completely agree with your reasoning, and i've been saying similar for a while, but it's such a bold leap from that cold logic to actually wanting to cash in... i just can't make it.

every factor to me says sell - his 'optimal' age, probable world cup inflation, probable world cup fitness hangover, no money, desperately thin squad, no realistic hope of winning the big titles - but the risks to our standing as a club of selling torres, and then probably gerrard & mascherano as well, are pretty frightening imo. money might not mean much in those circumstances.

i think the only one who could handle the rebuilding job under those implosive pressures would be mourinho. as it is, i think our best hope is to try to hang on to our foundations like gerrard and torres until we're sold and put on less precarious ground.
[/quote]

I would if the right offer came in for him.

I'd go a lot further than just sell Torres though, we're spending more than we can really afford on wages and we've got no glory to show for it. It's time to cut our cloth to measure, regroup and begin again for me. And we need some real financial flexibility in order to do that.



[/quote]

There is a lot of logic in what you say Ross but on the other hand if we have a realistic chance of being sold in the next six months, to owners that have some money to spend on squad/team rebuliding, then it might be better to hold on to them both.
Players like Torres and Gerrard are very special and are extremly hard to come by. It would be shame if new owners wasted time and money next season on buying proper replacements for G&T just because we off loaded the real thing this year.

However if investment is as unlikely as I fear it is in the short term,then we might just have to go down the road of costcutting and frugality that you suggest, while bracing ourselves for consistent mid term mediocrity for the short/medium term.

What Peterhague said earlier about knowing it is probably being the right thing to do but being afraid of the consequences pretty much captures how I feel on the matter.
[/quote]

I don't see us getting owners who are going to put serious money into the team without adding to the club's debt. So I think we might as well just get cracking on the rebuilding rather than continue in the manner that we have recently. We provided Benitez with enough to win the league, he messed it up in 08/09 and now we're completely overcooked with lots of big money players who aren't contributing as much as they can / used to / should be.
 
That five year deal for Rodwell simply means Everton will get another 30m or so from Utd next summer.

There is no way on Earth Fergie will let the next Gerrard pass him by when he has a real chance to get him this time.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=40355.msg1108163#msg1108163 date=1274691007]
That five year deal for Rodwell simply means Everton will get another 30m or so from Utd next summer.

There is no way on Earth Fergie will let the next Gerrard pass him by when he has a real chance to get him this time.
[/quote]

Sounds like Moyes sees him more as the next Rio than the next Gerrard.
 
IMO that would be a HUGE mistake. This lad is the closest thing I've seen to a young Gerrrard since, well, a young Gerrard!
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40355.msg1108142#msg1108142 date=1274683700]
[quote author=the count link=topic=40355.msg1108013#msg1108013 date=1274629836]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40355.msg1108008#msg1108008 date=1274627287]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40355.msg1107994#msg1107994 date=1274624253]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40355.msg1107968#msg1107968 date=1274615481]
Mark we have absolutely no hope of competing without a major rebuild. Throw whatever Torres goal stats you want at me, I know how good he is but we have not won a thing with him and we won't do anything with him next year either.

He played 22 league games last year (scoring 18), he's going to the World Cup not fully fit and he'll most likely come back carrying some sort of injury.



[/quote]

would you sell him then? i completely agree with your reasoning, and i've been saying similar for a while, but it's such a bold leap from that cold logic to actually wanting to cash in... i just can't make it.

every factor to me says sell - his 'optimal' age, probable world cup inflation, probable world cup fitness hangover, no money, desperately thin squad, no realistic hope of winning the big titles - but the risks to our standing as a club of selling torres, and then probably gerrard & mascherano as well, are pretty frightening imo. money might not mean much in those circumstances.

i think the only one who could handle the rebuilding job under those implosive pressures would be mourinho. as it is, i think our best hope is to try to hang on to our foundations like gerrard and torres until we're sold and put on less precarious ground.
[/quote]

I would if the right offer came in for him.

I'd go a lot further than just sell Torres though, we're spending more than we can really afford on wages and we've got no glory to show for it. It's time to cut our cloth to measure, regroup and begin again for me. And we need some real financial flexibility in order to do that.



[/quote]

There is a lot of logic in what you say Ross but on the other hand if we have a realistic chance of being sold in the next six months, to owners that have some money to spend on squad/team rebuliding, then it might be better to hold on to them both.
Players like Torres and Gerrard are very special and are extremly hard to come by. It would be shame if new owners wasted time and money next season on buying proper replacements for G&T just because we off loaded the real thing this year.

However if investment is as unlikely as I fear it is in the short term,then we might just have to go down the road of costcutting and frugality that you suggest, while bracing ourselves for consistent mid term mediocrity for the short/medium term.

What Peterhague said earlier about knowing it is probably being the right thing to do but being afraid of the consequences pretty much captures how I feel on the matter.
[/quote]

I don't see us getting owners who are going to put serious money into the team without adding to the club's debt. So I think we might as well just get cracking on the rebuilding rather than continue in the manner that we have recently. We provided Benitez with enough to win the league, he messed it up in 08/09 and now we're completely overcooked with lots of big money players who aren't contributing as much as they can / used to / should be.
[/quote]

I hear what you are saying Ross, and that might be what is required next season.
We still have a chance to salvage matters, but it is going to take some clever work in the transfer market, some money and a lot of luck, ie Torres giving us almost a full season.
If we are to do it, we need to add another top striker to the squad rather than see Torres go. That will see us with three decent options up front.
I don't want to see it, but one ,or both of Gerrard, and Mascher are going to go, and that seems to depend on who the manager is.
If we get £30m for either, with a modest transfer kitty, it should give us £50 at least to sort out a striker £25m, left back £10m, and a midfielder £15.The balance and any money through sales etc then goes on a left sided player.
This is also dependent on Alberto stepping up to the mark, which I think he will.
Hey ho


regards
 
Everytime I see Torres now, the negative feelings, with a hint of resentment are there. I'm preparing for him to go.
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=40355.msg1108218#msg1108218 date=1274698273]
Everytime I see Torres now, the negative feelings, with a hint of resentment are there. I'm preparing for him to go.


[/quote]

He's not going, you're simply preparing yourself for the worst cos you were in denial about Xabi for so long.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=40355.msg1108233#msg1108233 date=1274698905]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=40355.msg1108218#msg1108218 date=1274698273]
Everytime I see Torres now, the negative feelings, with a hint of resentment are there. I'm preparing for him to go.


[/quote]

He's not going, you're simply preparing yourself for the worst cos you were in denial about Xabi for so long.
[/quote]

It's true. Denial made it worse.

I can't help that feeling towards Torres at the moment though. I desperately hope he stays. I understand the logic of people thinking it might be good for us if he's sold, however with things the way they are at the club at the moment, I think the statement that it makes is too damaging. Selling Torres, or Gerrard for that matter, signals demise, not sound business right now. We need to keep hold of them both. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to think about how we will be perceived by other prospective players. We'll look like a club on the way down that no one will want to come to.
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=40355.msg1108235#msg1108235 date=1274699196]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=40355.msg1108233#msg1108233 date=1274698905]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=40355.msg1108218#msg1108218 date=1274698273]
Everytime I see Torres now, the negative feelings, with a hint of resentment are there. I'm preparing for him to go.


[/quote]

He's not going, you're simply preparing yourself for the worst cos you were in denial about Xabi for so long.
[/quote]

It's true. Denial made it worse.

I can't help that feeling towards Torres at the moment though. I desperately hope he stays. I understand the logic of people thinking it might be good for us if he's sold, however with things the way they are at the club at the moment, I think the statement that it makes is too damaging. Selling Torres, or Gerrard for that matter, signals demise, not sound business right now. We need to keep hold of them both. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to think about how we will be perceived by other prospective players. We'll look like a club on the way down that no one will want to come to.
[/quote]


yep.

tbh my main worry about flogging torres would be that i don't think we could do it without gerrard & mascherano going as well.

ok, that might leave us 120M better off, but the pressures on spending that money would be immense.
 
And it would send out a sign we werent a force in English or European footy any more.

We have a spine of 5/6 players that is brilliant, were 3 of them to go we'd be at the level of a mid table Premiership club.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=40355.msg1108243#msg1108243 date=1274699983]


were 3 of them to go we'd be at the level of a mid table Premiership club.
[/quote]

we're AT the level of a mid table premership team.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40355.msg1108274#msg1108274 date=1274701970]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=40355.msg1108243#msg1108243 date=1274699983]


were 3 of them to go we'd be at the level of a mid table Premiership club.
[/quote]

we're AT the level of a mid table premership team.
[/quote]

No, we're not.

Despite me being pissed off with us last season, we definitely under performed & didnt quite finish mid table.
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=40355.msg1108254#msg1108254 date=1274701178]
I don't believe that £120million would be availible to spend on players anyway.
[/quote]

That's the real problem with the idea of selling our star players. In our current predicament there's zero chance of Rafa getting his hands on more than 50% of the money raised.
 
It's pretty obvious to me that we need to rebuild. Torres is not worth 70M to us because he is always injured. Gerrard was not a 30M player last season, and you have to question whether he will be again. These's no room for sentimentality if you're going to be smart in the markets. Selling Fowler after all was one of the best deals we've ever done.
 
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=40355.msg1108309#msg1108309 date=1274706030]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=40355.msg1108254#msg1108254 date=1274701178]
I don't believe that £120million would be availible to spend on players anyway.
[/quote]

That's the real problem with the idea of selling our star players. In our current predicament there's zero chance of Rafa getting his hands on more than 50% of the money raised.
[/quote] Yeah, that's the real concern.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40355.msg1108314#msg1108314 date=1274706630]
It's pretty obvious to me that we need to rebuild. Torres is not worth 70M to us because he is always injured. Gerrard was not a 30M player last season, and you have to question whether he will be again. These's no room for sentimentality if you're going to be smart in the markets. Selling Fowler after all was one of the best deals we've ever done.
[/quote]

But we already had Owen when we sold Fowler.

Who have we got to replace Torres? Or Gerrard? Eggnog? The Shithouse? Lucarse??

And let's not pretend that we have faith in Benitez buying the right players, because he very often doesn't.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40355.msg1108317#msg1108317 date=1274706784]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40355.msg1108314#msg1108314 date=1274706630]
It's pretty obvious to me that we need to rebuild. Torres is not worth 70M to us because he is always injured. Gerrard was not a 30M player last season, and you have to question whether he will be again. These's no room for sentimentality if you're going to be smart in the markets. Selling Fowler after all was one of the best deals we've ever done.
[/quote]

But we already had Owen when we sold Fowler.

Who have we got to replace Torres? Or Gerrard? Eggnog? The Shithouse? Lucarse??

And let's not pretend that we have faith in Benitez buying the right players, because he very often doesn't.
[/quote] The last part is true enough, I suppose my post is advice to a new manager coming in. I'd even use the money to remove Benitez and bring someone else in. I just know that if everything stays the same we'll be prolonging the misery and then Torres will jump ship anyway, which is why I favour a more radical approach.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40355.msg1108317#msg1108317 date=1274706784]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40355.msg1108314#msg1108314 date=1274706630]
It's pretty obvious to me that we need to rebuild. Torres is not worth 70M to us because he is always injured. Gerrard was not a 30M player last season, and you have to question whether he will be again. These's no room for sentimentality if you're going to be smart in the markets. Selling Fowler after all was one of the best deals we've ever done.
[/quote]

But we already had Owen when we sold Fowler.

Who have we got to replace Torres? Or Gerrard? Eggnog? The Shithouse? Lucarse??

And let's not pretend that we have faith in Benitez buying the right players, because he very often doesn't.
[/quote]


Benitez buying the right players is the crux of the problem - I am still bemused that Rafa never tried to swap Xabi for Robben and Schneider (they left madrid shortly after Alonso signed for them and for about the same amount that Madrid paid us).

In theory we could make a decent patchwork team if we are forced to sell some of our leading lights this summer. We could swap Mascher for Yaya Toure & Pedro, sell Torres & Gerrard to Chelsea for £90m and get Joe Cole for free and see if Drogba would leave for a 3 year contract at a knock down price (say £12m). All very hypothetical I know but we could approach the Blueshite with a £15m offer for Arteta, buy Arda Turan for a similar amount and £10m for a decent left back.

If you add in the sale of Yossi, Riera and please god lucas we would come out of it all with a surplus of about £60m and have a squad able to compete successfully for a top 4 place.


Reina

Johnson Agger Skrtel £10m Left back

Cole Arteta Yaya Turan

Drogba Pedro


Subs
Kuyt
Babel
Carra
The Greek
Aquilani
Pacheco
maxi

It's all about wheelin' and dealin' but so few managers are actually adept at it.
 
In theory we could make a decent patchwork team if we are forced to sell some of our leading lights this summer. We could swap Mascher for Yaya Toure & Pedro, sell Torres & Gerrard to Chelsea for £90m and get Joe Cole for free and see if Drogba would leave for a 3 year contract at a knock down price (say £12m). All very hypothetical I know but we could approach the Blueshite with a £15m offer for Arteta, buy Arda Turan for a similar amount and £10m for a decent left back.

If you add in the sale of Yossi, Riera and please god lucas we would come out of it all with a surplus of about £60m and have a squad able to compete successfully for a top 4 place.

I can't work out if this is supposed to be funny or not.
Perhaps it's satire?

I'm confused.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40355.msg1108332#msg1108332 date=1274709156]
In theory we could make a decent patchwork team if we are forced to sell some of our leading lights this summer. We could swap Mascher for Yaya Toure & Pedro, sell Torres & Gerrard to Chelsea for £90m and get Joe Cole for free and see if Drogba would leave for a 3 year contract at a knock down price (say £12m). All very hypothetical I know but we could approach the Blueshite with a £15m offer for Arteta, buy Arda Turan for a similar amount and £10m for a decent left back.

If you add in the sale of Yossi, Riera and please god lucas we would come out of it all with a surplus of about £60m and have a squad able to compete successfully for a top 4 place.

I can't work out if this is supposed to be funny or not.
Perhaps it's satire?

I'm confused.
[/quote]

drogba from chelsea and arteta from everton...piece of cake.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40355.msg1108336#msg1108336 date=1274709564]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40355.msg1108332#msg1108332 date=1274709156]
In theory we could make a decent patchwork team if we are forced to sell some of our leading lights this summer. We could swap Mascher for Yaya Toure & Pedro, sell Torres & Gerrard to Chelsea for £90m and get Joe Cole for free and see if Drogba would leave for a 3 year contract at a knock down price (say £12m). All very hypothetical I know but we could approach the Blueshite with a £15m offer for Arteta, buy Arda Turan for a similar amount and £10m for a decent left back.

If you add in the sale of Yossi, Riera and please god lucas we would come out of it all with a surplus of about £60m and have a squad able to compete successfully for a top 4 place.

I can't work out if this is supposed to be funny or not.
Perhaps it's satire?

I'm confused.
[/quote]

drogba from chelsea and arteta from everton...piece of cake.
[/quote]

Maybe we should also enquire after Rodwell, see if MONg will sell us Milner, and make a cheeky bid for Van Persie
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40355.msg1108332#msg1108332 date=1274709156]
In theory we could make a decent patchwork team if we are forced to sell some of our leading lights this summer. We could swap Mascher for Yaya Toure & Pedro, sell Torres & Gerrard to Chelsea for £90m and get Joe Cole for free and see if Drogba would leave for a 3 year contract at a knock down price (say £12m). All very hypothetical I know but we could approach the Blueshite with a £15m offer for Arteta, buy Arda Turan for a similar amount and £10m for a decent left back.

If you add in the sale of Yossi, Riera and please god lucas we would come out of it all with a surplus of about £60m and have a squad able to compete successfully for a top 4 place.

I can't work out if this is supposed to be funny or not.
Perhaps it's satire?

I'm confused.
[/quote]

It's a hurriedly cobbled together example of how we could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear if we lose the likes of mascher, Torres, Gerrard this summer. My point being that even if you can't buy replacemtns of a similar value we could still end up with a decent team if we trade carefully/cleverly. The players I have chosen are specualtive at best and used just as examples.

Obviously Drogba will probably want CL football and Arteta is unlikely to cross Stanley Park but it's these types of players i.e. 31 year old forward (but still world class) who might not want to compete with Torres for a starting berth in Chelsea's line up and 28 year old central midfielder who might just want to play for one of Europe's most famous teams.

Imagine if we had got Robben and Schneider last summer instead of Aquilani and Maxi!
 
It was the owners who wanted to take the Alonso money i'm sure. I don't think a player exchange was an option at the time.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=40355.msg1108342#msg1108342 date=1274710068]
It was the owners who wanted to take the Alonso money i'm sure. I don't think a player exchange was an option at the time.
[/quote]

We'll never know whether it was an option though because we didn't even ask. I think Schneider was reluctant to come to England and who knows whether Robben would have been willing but neither of them had committed to Bayern/Inter at the time we sold Alonso (to the best of my knowledge) so the swap should have been mooted.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40355.msg1108332#msg1108332 date=1274709156]
In theory we could make a decent patchwork team if we are forced to sell some of our leading lights this summer. We could swap Mascher for Yaya Toure & Pedro, sell Torres & Gerrard to Chelsea for £90m and get Joe Cole for free and see if Drogba would leave for a 3 year contract at a knock down price (say £12m). All very hypothetical I know but we could approach the Blueshite with a £15m offer for Arteta, buy Arda Turan for a similar amount and £10m for a decent left back.

If you add in the sale of Yossi, Riera and please god lucas we would come out of it all with a surplus of about £60m and have a squad able to compete successfully for a top 4 place.

I can't work out if this is supposed to be funny or not.
Perhaps it's satire?

I'm confused.
[/quote]

I think Pesam is too if he thinks there is any chance of Drogba coming to us.
 
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