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Top 6 dominance

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member


This season:
vs Chelsea 4 points out of 6
vs Man City 4 out of 6
vs Spurs 4 out of 6
vs Arsenal 6 out of 6
vs United 2 out of 6
Overall W5 D5 L0

Last season under Klopp:
vs Chelsea 4 points out of 6
vs Man City 6 out of 6
vs Spurs 2 out of 6
vs Arsenal 1 out of 3
vs United 0 out of 3 in the league, but eliminated them in the Europa League (home win and away draw)
Overall (including EL) W4 D5 L1

Klopp's record against other top teams and managers in this league has been nothing short of extraordinary thus far. Only 1 loss in 20 games against much richer and often more talented clubs, while he had to deal with so many issues in our squad from misfit players he inherited, injury crises, scheduling nightmares and general lack of depth in the squad. We often say that Klopp is not a miracle worker, but in this respect... he kind of is a miracle worker. For years before that a trip to Emirates or Etihad or Old Trafford was an almost guaranteed loss for us. Now it's the other top teams who worry about meeting us, no matter home or away.

This season has been a crazy rollercoaster ride, but it gives me quite a bit of satisfaction to go through a full season unbeaten against the top 6 teams. For our players, this must feel like a big psychological change as well – from having no idea how to beat top teams away to making it a fairly routine occurrence, so much so that an away draw against Guardiola's City feels like a disappointment. In Germany it was the same way for Klopp, where Bayern had to endure humiliation home and away for several seasons before they managed to beat a Klopp team for the first time. This is why perhaps Klopp is so resistant to making major changes in our style of play and formation, even when we hit a rough patch. If you beat Mourinho, Wenger, Conte, Guardiola, Pochettino and Van Gaal in one and a half seasons of work, you have to think you're doing something right.

One last point I want to make is about the defense. If you look at our goals per game conceded, you may conclude that the defense under Klopp has not significantly improved compared to the Rodgers years. That conclusion would be wrong. Anybody who knows football knows that it's impossible to beat other top teams, particularly away, if players don't have confidence in their defensive system. Pundits often pigeonhole this LFC team as "all attack, no defense," compare it to Keegan's Newcastle etc – in my opinion that's just lazy journalism. Look again at our results this season against the best attacks in the country – other than the crazy early-season Arsenal game, where we conceded a couple of goals after leading 4:1, we have not let any of the top 6 teams score more than one goal against us in any game. And we have successfully defended 1-goal leads against Chelsea, City and Arsenal twice.

Sorry, pundits, but there is just no comparison to the defense under Rodgers, where he had to sacrifice one attacking player to keep 5 at the back because our back 4 was just getting murdered. We still concede due to boneheaded individual mistakes (fortunately not so often lately), but you have to be blind or biased not to notice the improved defensive organization and calmness. The team clearly knows how to shut up shop when they need to – it's when we lose patience against a defensively minded opponent, we become defensively vulnerable. Let's hope next summer's transfers will bring an influx of quality that will both help us unlock deep defenses and minimize individual mistakes at the back. The results against top 6 show that we are not far off from having a very good team here.
 
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Great post Rurik. No doubt that the former Rodgers fans will be around shortly to have a go at views on the defence.
 
I'm no Rodgers fan, but whatever you say about our current defence, it's clear to see that its far from where its needs to be. And from what I see, it doesn't seem much better than it was when Klopp started. Not considering the obvious nature of it's faults and the time that's been available to correct them.
 
Great post Rurik. No doubt that the former Rodgers fans will be around shortly to have a go at views on the defence.

Great post? Is it fuck.

"If you look at our goals per game conceded, you may conclude that the defense under Klopp has not significantly improved compared to the Rodgers years. That conclusion would be wrong"

No. It would be exactly fucking right. Our defence conceded 50 goals last season. It conceded 50 goals in the "nearly" season of 2014, when we came second under Rodgers.
We are on course to concede around the same this season, and have conceded more goals than United, City, Everton, Chelsea, Spurs and fucking Arsenal.

Our defence is correctly identified as a weakness, because it isn't very good.

You can fucking quack on about set-up, style of play, high-pressing, gen-gen fucking whatever, and try and use it as a rationale for Klopp's shit defence actually being better than Rodgers's shit defence, but that would be fucking embarrassing.
 
I dont get it , our defence is clearly whack.

Off the top of my head: Bournemouth scored 4, hull 2, swansea 3, leicester 2, burnley 2. So in the notable losses
Against the week sides this season we conceded 13 times ?

So, sure the reasons for conceding so many goals has changed since 2014 but we are still conceding as many, hurray?

Great
 
I dont get it , our defence is clearly whack.

Off the top of my head: Bournemouth scored 4, hull 2, swansea 3, leicester 2, burnley 2. So in the notable losses
Against the week sides this season we conceded 13 times ?

So, sure the reasons for conceding so many goals has changed since 2014 but we are still conceding as many, hurray?

Great

Yeah. And we had a more successful season in 2014.
 
Surely the difference when we play teams who defend deep is that we commit too many players forward and when they inevitably catch us on the break our defenders aren't good enough in 1 on 1 situations. Added to that we haven't got an outstanding defensive midfielder protecting the defence.
For me the problem starts with the forwards and midfielders not being effective enough at breaking stubborn defences down and needing to draw our defenders further up the park which exposes them.
Of the back 4 who started against city they all have deficiencies at times notably Milner being vulnerable to pace, Clyne to back post crosses due to his lack of height, Matip for his marking and Klavan for any number of things.
 
Okay, well let's not moan about certain people being supposedly repetitive and derailing threads in the future then. Can't have it both ways.

How is that repetitive, and its not even close to being the same issue. Its one comment, not repeated in every other thread or subject.
But, regardless, if you see no problem with the little digs that was being made in the match thread the other day, this should be of no concern to you.
Cant have it both ways.
 
How is that repetitive, and its not even close to being the same issue. Its one comment, not repeated in every other thread or subject.
But, regardless, if you see no problem with the little digs that was being made in the match thread the other day, this should be of no concern to you.
Cant have it both ways.


I'm not trying to have anything both ways and I'm really not "taking sides" as you might think I am.

I just don't get why people get so worked up about certain posters when they post and then go on to bait them even when they don't.

It's not just you, it's happened on numerous cycles Mark and Modo, Insig and Brendan and so forth.
 
If you look at the league table for the 15/16 season we scored 63 and conceded 50.
So far this season we've scored 61 and conceded 36, with 9 games to go.

On average for the full season we'll concede about 47 goals. Which clearly, still, isnt good enough and Klopp has a lot of work to do regarding that.
As Rurik pointed out though the progress being made against the top 6 is clear. Now Klopp has to figure out how we can adress the issues we have regarding conceding way to many goals against the so called "lesser" teams.

A stronger and more solid DM is one answer, but we also clearly lack the in physical side of the game against these sides. We're dominated on set pieces and with a lot of these long balls some of these teams are playing.
Chelsea, Spurs and Utd have all a core of these physical players that you need to compete in those games.
Mourinho has said that he always wants 6 players over 180 cm starting in the Premier League. Might be extreme but there is some truth in it. Pocchettino added Wanyama to their midfield and with Dembele next to him you have a midfield that together with CBs will battle most players and more in the league.

If you look at the team starting away to Leicester and Hull. Its quite clear that bar Matip and Can we had no answer to the pressure they were putting us under.
Some of these soft goals we're conceding seems to be a result of not being able to handle those situations. Hull won 65% of all aerial duels, while Leicester won 61%.

When we're targeting new players this summer we badly need another dominant CB next to Matip.
Having seen how impressive N'Zonzi has been for Sevilla I wouldnt be against signing him as the DM either.

That is obviously just one part of this whole defensive issue mind.

Winning ugly isnt something we're particularly good at. That needs to change.
 
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I'm not trying to have anything both ways and I'm really not "taking sides" as you might think I am.

I just don't get why people get so worked up about certain posters when they post and then go on to bait them even when they don't.

It's not just you, it's happened on numerous cycles Mark and Modo, Insig and Brendan and so forth.

Thats a good point mate.
 
We would probably be fighting it out for mid table meritocracy had we not won those games against the top 6 this season.

As we are terrible against cannon fodder.
 
Looks like from Klopp's time at Dortmund they had a good defence for 2 seasons, and a poor one for 5 ......
So this might not be a problem that will be fixed.

[xtable]
{tbody}
{tr}
{th=rowspan:2}Season{/th}
{th=colspan:8}League{/th}
{th}Cup{/th}
{th}Europe{/th}
{th}Other{/th}
{th=rowspan:2}Ref.{/th}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}M{/th}
{th}W{/th}
{th}D{/th}
{th}L{/th}
{th}GF{/th}
{th}GA{/th}
{th}Win %{/th}
{th}Pos.{/th}
{th}Pos.{/th}
{th}Pos.{/th}
{th}Pos.{/th}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2008–09{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}15{/td}
{td}14{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}60{/td}
{td}37{/td}
{td}44.12{/td}
{td}6th{/td}
{td}R16{/td}
{td}FR{/td}
{td}—{/td}
{td}[16][52]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2009–10{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}16{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}54{/td}
{td}42{/td}
{td}47.06{/td}
{td}5th{/td}
{td}R16{/td}
{td}—{/td}
{td}—{/td}
{td}[17][53]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2010–11{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}23{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}67{/td}
{td}22{/td}
{td}67.65{/td}
{td}1st{/td}
{td}FR{/td}
{td}GS{/td}
{td}—{/td}
{td}[18][54]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2011–12{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}25{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}80{/td}
{td}25{/td}
{td}73.53{/td}
{td}1st{/td}
{td}W{/td}
{td}GS{/td}
{td}RU{/td}
{td}[21][25][55]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2012–13{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}19{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}81{/td}
{td}42{/td}
{td}55.88{/td}
{td}2nd{/td}
{td}R16{/td}
{td}F{/td}
{td}RU{/td}
{td}[34][35][36]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2013–14{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}22{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}80{/td}
{td}38{/td}
{td}64.71{/td}
{td}2nd{/td}
{td}F{/td}
{td}QF{/td}
{td}W{/td}
{td}[40][41][42]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2014–15{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}13{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}14{/td}
{td}47{/td}
{td}42{/td}
{td}38.24{/td}
{td}7th{/td}
{td}F{/td}
{td}R16{/td}
{td}W{/td}
{td}[43][49][50]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}Totals{/th}
{td}238{/td}
{td}133{/td}
{td}56{/td}
{td}49{/td}
{td}469{/td}
{td}248{/td}
{td}55.88{/td}
{th}—{/th}
{th}—{/th}
{th}—{/th}
{th}—{/th}
{th}—{/th}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
 
You can fucking quack on about set-up, style of play, high-pressing, gen-gen fucking whatever, and try and use it as a rationale for Klopp's shit defence actually being better than Rodgers's shit defence, but that would be fucking embarrassing.

Did I quack? I don't think I quacked much. Maybe chirped a little bit.
 
We've paid a big price this season for (a) not having a proper left back, and (2) continual instability of our centre backs. Matip and Lovren were looking really good together at first but have just never had a chance to develop that partnership.

Lovren was lost without Matip, and Klavan is not good enough without a proper full back which leaves him a bit too exposed.

We'd really benefit from a bit of stability at the back, but also a proper spine to the team as well as a better balance. Its like we rock backwards and forwards - can blow teams away but also leak goals as easily as we score them.
 
Surely the difference when we play teams who defend deep is that we commit too many players forward and when they inevitably catch us on the break our defenders aren't good enough in 1 on 1 situations. Added to that we haven't got an outstanding defensive midfielder protecting the defence.
For me the problem starts with the forwards and midfielders not being effective enough at breaking stubborn defences down and needing to draw our defenders further up the park which exposes them.

That's exactly right, IMO. I think it's the inability to break down defenses, particularly in January without Mane and Coutinho, that was the mother of all problems. Then, of course, we had a number of smaller defensive issues that would pop up at one time at one time or another – goalkeeping issues, Matip's suspension and injuries, Hendo's injuries (those always hit us hard), Lucas, occasional lack of height on set pieces, etc. The good thing is that none of these issues was allowed to grow into a huge problem – but they also didn't allow us to keep winning when the goals dried up (as they inevitably do at certain points in the season). So in this sense, the defense did let us down. But it's still significantly improved compared to what it was under Rodgers.
 
Its all well and good not losing any games to your main rivals and boasting about it...provided you have something to show for it.
 
I'm not convinced that doing well against these clubs shows anything other than our players picking and choosing their games, which is bad news.
 
Its all well and good not losing any games to your main rivals and boasting about it...provided you have something to show for it.
Doesn't stop the boasting going on in my adopted home about the rugby result last weekend.

Disclaimer - I hate rugby and do not care, just find it funny how the celebrations of "not winning, while your rivals win, but you prevented breaking a record along the way" are loud & universal over here
 
Looks like from Klopp's time at Dortmund they had a good defence for 2 seasons, and a poor one for 5 ......
So this might not be a problem that will be fixed.

[xtable=skin1]
{tbody}
{tr}
{th=rowspan:2}Season{/th}
{th=colspan:8}League{/th}
{th}Cup{/th}
{th}Europe{/th}
{th}Other{/th}
{th=rowspan:2}Ref.{/th}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}M{/th}
{th}W{/th}
{th}D{/th}
{th}L{/th}
{th}GF{/th}
{th}GA{/th}
{th}Win %{/th}
{th}Pos.{/th}
{th}Pos.{/th}
{th}Pos.{/th}
{th}Pos.{/th}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2008–09{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}15{/td}
{td}14{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}60{/td}
{td}37{/td}
{td}44.12{/td}
{td}6th{/td}
{td}R16{/td}
{td}FR{/td}
{td}—{/td}
{td}[16][52]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2009–10{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}16{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}54{/td}
{td}42{/td}
{td}47.06{/td}
{td}5th{/td}
{td}R16{/td}
{td}—{/td}
{td}—{/td}
{td}[17][53]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2010–11{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}23{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}67{/td}
{td}22{/td}
{td}67.65{/td}
{td}1st{/td}
{td}FR{/td}
{td}GS{/td}
{td}—{/td}
{td}[18][54]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2011–12{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}25{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}80{/td}
{td}25{/td}
{td}73.53{/td}
{td}1st{/td}
{td}W{/td}
{td}GS{/td}
{td}RU{/td}
{td}[21][25][55]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2012–13{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}19{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}81{/td}
{td}42{/td}
{td}55.88{/td}
{td}2nd{/td}
{td}R16{/td}
{td}F{/td}
{td}RU{/td}
{td}[34][35][36]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2013–14{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}22{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}80{/td}
{td}38{/td}
{td}64.71{/td}
{td}2nd{/td}
{td}F{/td}
{td}QF{/td}
{td}W{/td}
{td}[40][41][42]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2014–15{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}13{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}14{/td}
{td}47{/td}
{td}42{/td}
{td}38.24{/td}
{td}7th{/td}
{td}F{/td}
{td}R16{/td}
{td}W{/td}
{td}[43][49][50]{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th}Totals{/th}
{td}238{/td}
{td}133{/td}
{td}56{/td}
{td}49{/td}
{td}469{/td}
{td}248{/td}
{td}55.88{/td}
{th}—{/th}
{th}—{/th}
{th}—{/th}
{th}—{/th}
{th}—{/th}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
Personally at look at goal difference and that's 5 good seasons and 2 poor.
 
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