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The Tiki-Taka Turnaround

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Fair enough Whaddapie. I often find I'm in the minority but I remember clearly when football was about winning, not entertaining an audience. What a neutral TV watcher thinks of any team to me is immaterial. I watch and support my own team and I don't give a toss about any others. We were pretty boring in the 70's quite often. Controlling play, stifling the opposition, passing them to death, just doing enough. Would you rather be remembered in the future as great to watch but a loser (Arsenal now, Holland in the 70s) or horrible to watch with a bulging trophy cabinet (Arsenal in the late 80s/early 90s, Leeds in the 60s and 70s)
I know which I'd choose. This idea that teams from a country other than the one you support have a responsibility or obligation to supply people watching on television some form of entertainment, like it's a play or a film, is beyond me.

I agree with everything that you say here, mate... I never said that they owe us anything. They don't. Their job is to win. The Irish team that Jack Charlton built would have made my eyes bleed, if they hadn't been "mine", and yet they provided me with such joy at times.

I was simply replying to your initial summation that, because some "journalists" said something, it's caught on... That's not it, mate. At least, not for me.

Like you, I'd rather win boring than lose with flair. But Spain aren't "mine", so they bore me. With their brilliance.
 
I believe you can find that balance in this system, however it's dependant on individual brilliance in the final third.

With a creative player or two good enough to find & exploit the space there you can be exceptionally attacking.

The difference is when you don't have those players there you aren't simply sitting back inviting pressure & looking for a ball on the break.

I think we have two of those players in suarez & Gerrard. Possibly two coming through in a year or so in hendo & shelvey.

We need one or two more though.
Our great white hope...
Sterling!!!! 🙄
 
I agree with everything that you say here, mate... I never said that they owe us anything. They don't. Their job is to win. The Irish team that Jack Charlton built would have made my eyes bleed, if they hadn't been "mine", and yet they provided me with such joy at times.

I was simply replying to your initial summation that, because some "journalists" said something, it's caught on... That's not it, mate. At least, not for me.

Like you, I'd rather win boring than lose with flair. But Spain aren't "mine", so they bore me. With their brilliance.

I'm with you. Wasn't trying to be a smart arse. I think how they played last night was both brilliant and winning and unboring. So everyone must have been happy 🙂
 
I'm with you. Wasn't trying to be a smart arse. I think how they played last night was both brilliant and winning and unboring. So everyone must have been happy 🙂

It becomes boring when other teams go out with a whimper. Italy offered nothing of note. It's great watching Spain's movement and some of their passing ability when opening up teams, but when you see it time and time again with sides looking like they've got nothing at all to combat it, then it's all so fucking predictable.
 
When you’re sat at Anfield, either next season, but more likely the one after, watching us stroll around 1-0 up against Utd, passing the ball again & again, the crowd shouting ‘woooaahhhh’ at the 82nd pass in a row whilst Fergie’s head explodes with rage & he further destroys his molars he’s chewing that hard, you tell me if it’s ‘boring’, cos I’ll love every fucking minute

The Fantastic Mr. Fox.
 
It becomes boring when other teams go out with a whimper. Italy offered nothing of note. It's great watching Spain's movement and some of their passing ability when opening up teams, but when you see it time and time again with sides looking like they've got nothing at all to combat it, then it's all so fucking predictable.

As with all sports though, when an individual or team is so far ahead of everyone else it becomes monotonous. Schumacher, Pete Sampras, Tiger Woods etc. It's up to the opposition to raise their game, or for a new person to grow into becoming a challenger.
 
people dislike of tiki-taka is probably down to jealousy - very few teams in the history of the game can play like this and win trophies - barca and spain are doing it. counter attack football instinctively relies upon the mistakes of the opposing team which you can then take advantage - inherently its a lazy way of playing because it puts hte onus on the other team to do make a mistake. tiki-taka on the other hand is a profound expression of intent: we want to play and deny you the very oxygen of football, possession of the ball - we have the skill, means and possession to dictate the game - we make the ball do the work and not the other way around. if we could play like that and win we would be creaming ourselves. enjoy what you are seeing as no other team is likely to play like this and win things for a long long time.

Exactly. Well put.
 
Those who do not like to watch Spain, Barca, Arsenal for their possession and passing football would most likely love to watch Roy's England, Bolton, Watford, ....
 
In recent times a few things have happened that have had an effect on public perception of tiki-taka football.

1. Chelsea, playing 'backs to the wall' 'brave john terry' 'proper English footy' won the CL final against a team who played tiki taka football.

Never mind the fact that if that match were replayed another 10 times Chelsea probably wouldn’t win once. Never mind the fact that they were battered throughout. Never mind the fact the Barca play the most attractive football that at least two generations of fans have every actually seen.

2. Brendan Rodgers, lauded for playing exceptional tiki taka football with a Premiership newcomer, getting results against almost all the big sides & finishing about 12 places higher in the league than any pundit predicted, gets the Liverpool managers job.

Journalists from every major paper state that he talks well & see the appointment as risky, but visionary. Then we see a pattern emerging, repeating, to be exact. The same tables, & graphs, all pulled from the same interview with Rodgers a year ago. Journalists were clearly left standing with this, their personal knowledge, bar a few, was severely lacking.

3. Roy Hodgson is appointed as England manager (typing those words makes me wonder if I'm dreaming & this keyboard is about to turn into Kelly Brook's arse). His 'style' of football being "Don’t TRY to get the ball, just defend for fucks sake boys, you never know; we might score from a free kick. That would be utopia, to be awarded a free kick". His disregard for possession stats "I don’t look at those, they're meaningless" is somehow either ignored by the press or lauded as some kind of fucking hidden genius. This despite some truly shocking performances from his England side, dragged reluctantly into the quarter finals, before the weight of carrying 5 passengers became to much for Gerrard at this age, & he collapsed into a shadow of himself, forced to accept Roy's plan of doing everything they can to get penalties, what with England being so good at penalties. The press start to see 'anti-possession' & counter attacking that consists solely of 'fucking hope you get something' as 'the English way', using Chelsea as an example of what we should aim for with this England side.

4. Spain play with no striker in their first four Euro 2012 matches. The English media, reluctant to turn on Roy just yet (they will have a timeline planned out already) turn their attentions to this side who are a symbol of everything this new English revolution of anti possession ‘play dead’ football is fighting against. This side have the audacity to ‘kill football’ (taken from a newspaper header today) by not playing a striker & winning games 1-0. Apparently they’ve ruined the fantastic football they used to play by not playing a forward & therefore not being penetrative enough. Never mind the fact they won most of their World Cup 2010 matches 1-0 & were praised for their style of play. Never mind the fact that they’re in their third final in recent history. Never mind that they have the ball that much that the opposition cant score, because when Spain finally do mis-hit a pass the player who receives it is so confused wondering what this spherical object at his feet is & what he should do with it, that Spain simply take it back again.

This probably reads a bit like a rant. That’s because it is.

The English media (mostly the print media, but some network slants) has a new axe to grind, & as Rodgers, & therefore Liverpool, will be using that system, you can be damn sure they’ll be taking us to pieces the moment they see a crack in his system or player error.

Not only that, but the great unwashed, who know fuck all about football, are increasingly repeating this ‘boring brand of football’, ‘not the English way’ bollocks.

When you’re sat at Anfield, either next season, but more likely the one after, watching us stroll around 1-0 up against Utd, passing the ball again & again, the crowd shouting ‘woooaahhhh’ at the 82nd pass in a row whilst Fergie’s head explodes with rage & he further destroys his molars he’s chewing that hard, you tell me if it’s ‘boring’, cos I’ll love every fucking minute.
Nice post John however Arsneal have played this style for 7 seasons now and won F*ck all.
Playing the style and winnnig trophies with in England are 2 totally different things.

I'm looking forward to Rodgers but talk of us walking all over teams like Utd at Anfield is very very premature.
 
Why is it laughable you arrogant prick.
Because its football at its finest by techncally gifted players who have come on top against Europes best twice and the worlds best.
The movement off the ball, the patience, the support, the finishing, everything is just a joy to watch.
The fact they have come along and made every other technically gifted team look 2nd and 3rd class is simply stunning and I could watch Spain all day everyday.

I only pray Liverpool begin to play like this.

Thanks for the needless insult though.
 
Its not laughable Pat, it's someone's opinion.

Andy, have to warn you about the insult.

People need to respect other's rights to have a different opinion to their own, be it football, music, women's breasts, or chinos.


Fair enough, I'm just stunned any fan of football would not love watching Spain. I hope they win everything as long as they play this football.
 
As a fan of football I crave excitement and Spain doesn't instil it in me.

I'd rather watch Germany
 
Spain against Portugal in extra time had one of the most attacking plays and chances in the tournament. That's against a pretty solid side.

There are more exciting games out there but those rely on both sides having a shitty defence.
 
Spain against Portugal in extra time had one of the most attacking plays and chances in the tournament. That's against a pretty solid side.

There are more exciting games out there but those rely on both sides having a shitty defence.
That really was a weird game. Only first seemed to get going with 5 minutes to go and into extra time. It had loads of tension and excitement but the football was dire for most parts and Portugal actually looked the better side in normal time at least.
 
Football is a game of opinions really isnt it? Personally I like the way Spain play and Im delighted they won it. Without doubt they are the best team in the world and have been for some time. Their bench would have had a good go at winning it.

People saying they are the best team ever though is a bit premature IMO.
 
Very late to this thread Jon cause I've had heaps to do but very well written post and I understand your arguments I just don't think it can be universally agreed with.

Barca today are a poor man's re-iteration of the Madrid teams from 50+ years ago and us from 20+ years ago; the difference is they spend more time doing it and less time scoring.

I love the skill, the control, the touch and poise in possession that Spain's (and Barca's) 2 maestro's display as well as most of their players tbh. Their ability to pass and hold possession in amazingly tight situations is so impressive - you can't help but admire it. But that's the point IMO; you have to be impressed by Spain, you have to admire them and what they do but it doesn't inspire passion. Football is a sport of passion and Spain live off the passion of football rather than creating passion themselves.

Prior to the display against Italy I found them brilliant but dull. No cutting edge, no edge of your seat stuff. I can't stand Balotelli (sp?) but he created more passion for me in 15 minutes against Germany than Spain did in their first 5 matches.

I think we'll get creamed if we try to play the way Barca play; to win we need to display balance. The mancs of 5 years ago were exceptional imo; they could keep possession, move the ball around and looked dominant in every way. By the same token they could counter with as much pace and decisiveness as any team I've seen in 20 years. That was their strength; they could do both wonderfully and responded to the situation.

Spain in the final was a different proposition to what came in the previous fortnight; they attacked with pace and agression on occasions when the space was afforded them (and Italy afforded them far too much). Prior to that it made no difference if they wer

e backs to the wall in their penalty area or had the opposition at sixes and sevens; they simply played the ball around at the back, made sure everyone had a touch then gradually moved it forward. I honestly started watching most of their play in double speed just to make it look interesting.

I hope we're focused on playing what's in front of us rather than following a set diagram that the players learnt during the week.
 
To all of you stunned that some of us found some of the Spanish football in this tournament boring, can you at least admit that the perfromance displayed by Spain against Italy on Sunday was very, very different to their performance against France a couple of weeks back..?

It's completely possible to utterly outclass a side without being exciting in how you do it... Like I said earlier, at times, watching Spain toy with the opposition was like watching a bunch of 16 year olds playing a bunch of 9 year olds. Keep the ball forever, without doing much with it, and just do enough to win. It was impressive in that they were so obviously worlds better than their opponents throughout this tournament, but the endless keep-away stuff was very dull at times. It just was.

And they are clearly the best team on the planet. It's not even close.
 
Because its football at its finest by techncally gifted players who have come on top against Europes best twice and the worlds best.
The movement off the ball, the patience, the support, the finishing, everything is just a joy to watch.
The fact they have come along and made every other technically gifted team look 2nd and 3rd class is simply stunning and I could watch Spain all day everyday.

I only pray Liverpool begin to play like this.

Thanks for the needless insult though.
I could eat a can of alphabeti spagetti and shit a better argument than that.
 
Benitez:

After eight years in England, I am really pleased to see how many teams in the Premier League are little by little changing their style of play. Despite some opinions to the contrary, the arrival of foreign managers has benefited English football. These days not many question, for example, Manchester City’s zonal marking in corners or the necessary rotations carried out this season to ensure that English players could reach the European Cup with fresh legs. Furthermore, as time goes by we can see how the game is starting to be analysed taking into account aspects like team formation instead of just the performance of individual players.

One of the players from my time at Liverpool FC, who has played in various Premier League teams and is still playing in England, commented about a manager that he’s had: “he trains very similar to the way we used to with you, always with the ball".

It seems that slowly there begins to be another vision of football and there is even talk of adopting the Spanish model for the youth system. The FA has reacted to this situation although it is going to be a hard task. Amongst other changes The FA is also trying to improve the structure of Football Academies, which is going to be positive. From my personal experience as player and coach in Spain for more than 30 years I would say that two basic things would help: first, youth system coaches’ formation; second, the under 21 competition system.

After analysing the statistics from the different leagues provided by Opta, especially the ones which refer to the Premier League, it appears systematically that Arsene Wenger’s Arsenal has been the team that has always maintained a style of football based on ball possession, even though now that style of play is beginning to spread.

These days it is interesting to see how, after the success of Barcelona and the national Spanish team, there have been followers that have compared themselves to the Catalan team in many aspects of the game but may not realise that Barcelona is what it is because they have spent many years playing in the same way, the same style and, above all, because Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Piqué, Dani Alves and the rest have converted Barcelona into a distinctive team because of their particular style of play and the great quality they have as individuals.

Even so, these statistics make for some interesting points. For example, significantly in the Premier League there have been more passes made in total (351,867) than in La Liga (340,416), and in addition the Premier League has more than seven teams that have exceeded the 20,000 passes although in comparison they still remain far from the statistics illustrated by Barcelona who exceed 29,000 passes in total. But neither Real Madrid nor Valencia have reached those 20.000 passes despite finishing first and third in the Spanish league which shows how the rest of the clubs in La Liga as a whole, do make more passes than teams in the Premier League as a whole.

When talking about style, keeping the ball, possession..., we could also analyse in which part of the pitch the ball is kept. Some of the teams with higher ball possession in the Premier League play a lot in their own half and also with their goalkeeper -which could be a good solution in some situations. The problem is also that their passing success rate in the opposite half is below 80%, far from the 87% shown by Barcelona. This reminds me of what used to happen in Spain 15 years ago with the famous “tiqui-taca".

The origin of this term, curiously, has negative connotations. Some years ago the Spanish league had public opinion divided between those that defended this type of passing play, generally short passing, and those that defended direct play, as playing long balls was considered more practical.

Coaches like Maguregui or Javier Clemente criticised this type of play (tiqui-taca) because -said in their favour- in those times many teams liked to keep passing the ball without progressing or creating chances. It was all about keeping the ball and waiting for the right moment to find the space and break the defence. It was named in some cases the “windscreen wiper game" because the ball went from one side to the other like a windscreen wiper, without reaching the opposition’s goal. One famous coach and defender of this type of play, “style" over result, told a journalist in answer to the question if he would prefer to win playing badly or lose playing well, that he would prefer to lose playing well. A few days later he was asked to come out and rectify these words, but the debate had already begun.

At Barcelona, Messi, Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta and company have given lustre to the famous “tiqui-taca" and with the arrival of Luis Aragonés to the national team, this group of players and this style of play began to shine and fascinate the world. Del Bosque and Guardiola achieved even greater triumphs with that style of play and above all with that group of players. Now many want to follow that style because it is fashionable, it’s beautiful and on top of that it wins titles. It’s a shame that there is, for example, just one Xavi Hernandez
.
So what next for the Premier League? The statistics shown by Opta tell us that in the Premier League the number of total passes made each season is increasing, surpassing more than 320,000, 330,000 and 350,000 respectively in each one of the last three seasons. The number of goals has also quickly increased over 1,050 each year although last season the number of total shots at goal decreased. But what could be worrying is the idea of “we are like Barcelona", which could lead to errors similar to those that were committed in Spain. The percentage of passes in the opposite half has decreased from 65% in 09/10 season to 61% last season. Copying a style and system does not always guarantee success. Many of us like Barcelona’s style of play, but they can achieve it thanks to their individual quality and years of hard work. We shouldn’t forget that there are many ways of playing well and winning.
 
Sadly the stats sent me to sleep, because he's making some good points. Or a good point. I hope he doesn't communicate like that to players.
 
Nice article, shame he ruins it from the off by jumping straight in and blowing his own trumpet about zonal marking and squad rotation. Therein lies the problem with Rafa, he's talking about Man City who've spunked shitloads on brilliant players to get where they are, he didn't have the capacity to compromise his principles when it was clear he either didn't have the players to do it, or it just wasn't working.

Squad rotation is fine when you have Tevez, Aguero, Dzecko, Balotelli, etc... It's shit when you've left yourself with David N'Gog as the only cover for Fernando Torres.

And don't cry me a river about having his hands tied all that bullshit.

Robbie Keane. Treating Crouch and Bellamy like shit, etc.
 
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