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The Talent Vacuum

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Fabio

Fabio

Former mod, consistent c***
Honorary Member
Chelsea

What gives? Is it just mourinho tactics, ruining the talent, or something deeper?

Oscar hasn't developed as much as he should, he's intent on alienating Lukaku, willian is now just all workrate no product, hazard started brightly but seems to be reverting (as this world cup showed), De bruyne was shipped out after HALF A SEASON, and lest we forget the COUNTLESS talented players on loan everywhere.

Other players have seemingly excelled, but they are the defensive/graft players.

Was Rodgers right in his criticism, in that it's easy to coach defending?
 
They've been building up a stockpile of assets 'players' that they can sell on to give them an advantage for a few seasons once ffp kicks in, which they now have.

Whether abromovich let's Mourinho take advantage of that or leaves it to his successor we shall see.
 
Because the main things drilled into them is shape and the defensive responsibilities? the attacking players don't seem to be fully allowed off the leash, look at Mata.

Big season for Mourinho, after winning nothing last season he will be under big pressure to deliver trophies especially playing that type of football, that won't be tolerated much longer if the results arn't there.
 
Hazard was brilliant last season, come on.

Mourinho's a horrible manager who sees no romance in the game whatsoever, and he won't last much longer there, but the main problem with what you're talking about is simply that after a certain point, spending on a squad becomes worthless or even counter-productive.

A squad can tolerate about 20 top players, that's an absolute. After that they start wanting for game time, stagnate, bitch about each other etc. Same with City, PSG, Real Madrid. Happens every time.

Tbh Chelsea are the least bad at it of those 4.
 
peterhague said:
Hazard was brilliant last season, come on.
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He started magnificently, and he should have dominated the league... But he didn't. He tailed off noticeably towards the end and there were a good few performances where he phoned it in.

He's got the potential to be one of the world's best, but he's playing in shackles at the minute and we're not going to see the best of him until he can express himself
 
Hazard was ace last season.

Willian got better as it went on too.

Oscar looked very good early on but tired.

Schurle looks very tidy.


I'm not sure I buy into your theory, I would say his tactics at times does undermine attacking intent that the above players all hold but I would not question the talent at all
 
LeTallecWiz said:
I think Mourinho doesn't last the year ...
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Wouldn't surprise at all, if anything its more likely than not unless the Russian has gone soft, Mourinho simply has to deliver next season, he has no more excuses about 40 year old strikers etc...

Rodgers must be pretty high on Romans want list for next Chelsea manager.
 
HC said:
Hazard was ace last season.

Willian got better as it went on too.

Oscar looked very good early on but tired.

Schurle looks very tidy.


I'm not sure I buy into your theory, I would say his tactics at times does undermine attacking intent that the above players all hold but I would not question the talent at all
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Clearly they're all very talented and I'd love them at anfield

BUT

they should have ripped shit up. They should have been the ones scoring 100 goals... But they didn't.

The question is why.
 
Fabio said:
Clearly they're all very talented and I'd love them at anfield

BUT

they should have ripped shit up. They should have been the ones scoring 100 goals... But they didn't.

The question is why.
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Not really. Everyone knows why they don't score with abandon, it's Mourinho. You've already said it.

But you're implying something more, that the style is actually hampering these players' careers or something. I'm not convinced about that at all.
 
peterhague said:
Not really. Everyone knows why they don't score with abandon, it's Mourinho. You've already said it.

But you're implying something more, that the style is actually hampering these players' careers or something. I'm not convinced about that at all.
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These are all young players plying their trade. Surely if you limit what they're capable of then you're stifling their development.

Isn't that a reason why people criticise reserve football, that the players aren't challenged enough?

If a player is trained in the art of simplicity and ball retention, are you not stopping their own instincts from taking over and thus removing the occasional flash of brilliance?
 
Fabio said:
These are all young players plying their trade. Surely if you limit what they're capable of then you're stifling their development.

Isn't that a reason why people criticise reserve football, that the players aren't challenged enough?

If a player is trained in the art of simplicity and ball retention, are you not stopping their own instincts from taking over and thus removing the occasional flash of brilliance?
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Well I suppose in theory it's possible that they could be stunted, but I think you'd need a much more extreme situation. Chelsea defend when they can but 90% of their games they still have no choice but to go out and attack, because their opponents are happy with a point and they're not.
 
peterhague said:
Well I suppose in theory it's possible that they could be stunted, but I think you'd need a much more extreme situation. Chelsea defend when they can but 90% of their games they still have no choice but to go out and attack, because their opponents are happy with a point and they're not.
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They still attack, but it seems like they are reserved with it. In the case of us it's lightning attacks. with them it's more gradual pulling of defences from one side to another. It's rare you see a moment of genius, or a quick break (short of a fuck up), it's all very 2nd gear. Then if they are caught out (see villa game or crystal palace), no one knows how to attack any more. They just throw attacks forward and see if anything happens.

I've only seen us do that once this year and it was because Gerrard decided to dust off the ol' stevie me cape against Chelsea.
 
Fabio said:
They still attack, but it seems like they are reserved with it. In the case of us it's lightning attacks. with them it's more gradual pulling of defences from one side to another. It's rare you see a moment of genius, or a quick break (short of a fuck up), it's all very 2nd gear. Then if they are caught out (see villa game or crystal palace), no one knows how to attack any more. They just throw attacks forward and see if anything happens.

I've only seen us do that once this year and it was because Gerrard decided to dust off the ol' stevie me cape against Chelsea.
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I'm not sure, really. I mean, it's a theory. I'd say look at other young creative attackers Mourinho has managed and see how they've got on, but he's never stayed around anywhere long enough to be able to judge.

Is that basically what you're saying? Defensive coaches stunt creative players? Or is it something unique to Mourinho? Or even to the Chelsea/Mourinho combination?
 
Incidentally I could've sworn Chelsea were pretty good on the counter last season. I'm sure they scored quite a lot of goals that way.
 
peterhague said:
I'm not sure, really. I mean, it's a theory. I'd say look at other young creative attackers Mourinho has managed and see how they've got on, but he's never stayed around anywhere long enough to be able to judge.

Is that basically what you're saying? Defensive coaches stunt creative players? Or is it something unique to Mourinho? Or even to the Chelsea/Mourinho combination?
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It's just something I've pondered for a bit.

I'm tempted to say it's the Chelsea/mourinho combo for some reason.

Look at schurrle. Great this world cup, did great for Chelsea too, but barely started. Why? Hardly like Etoo and ba were tearing defences asunder.

De bruyne, top goalscorer in world cup qualifying, great for his loaned club... Binned off after a couple of great performances for Chelsea.

At Madrid jese and morata got a go under him and did well. Same with Ozil, he flourished. Madrid were very attacking under him. Whether that was player power just fucking off his tactics I don't know though.

At inter, he had an old squad so we can't compare though he did give balotelli his chance.

Porto.... My memory is fucked so Nah.

He seems to just have a thing for this league.
 
peterhague said:
Incidentally I could've sworn Chelsea were pretty good on the counter last season. I'm sure they scored quite a lot of goals that way.
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Probably more than I recall, so fair enough if you remember it.

It always seemed to be a very slow slog to the opposition box whenever I watched them (which was a lot). Their games were amongst the most consistently dull I've seen.
 
Fabio

They should have been scoring 100 goals ? they should have been ripping shit up ? - I get what your saying but the bigger picture is that these players - especially the Brazilians are not playing in a balanced national side. I think there are many issues surrounding the question you ask - and you have a point.

1) Sometimes if a player is told to focus on defense to the extent that Chelsea were - it will impact their ability to do the stuff that they are good at because they are not practicing that part of their game as much.

2) What we are witnessing in this World Cup are above average players in squads with average or below par players - hence they are limited in the way they can express themselves. The Brazil side in particular as I have stated from the start - is the worst ever. The Belgium side - although full of individually talented players - they don't function like a coherent team.

3) Rich European Clubs - the oil money from Russia and the Arab money has kind of had a very negative impact on World football. Before most of the clubs across the top leagues in Europe could send out their scouts and find the talents across different continents and those young players would develop their skills and trade slowly - without the intense pressure associated with the big clubs as they would come in at a later stage with big money to get the best footballers from existing clubs. What we find now is that these super rich clubs just raid South America and get the best players and put them under the pressure cooker from the word go. It could be that in the past - someone like Oscar would have ended up at a club like .. lets see Undinese in Italy, he would develop and then maybe in two years time someone like Juve, AC Milan or even Arsenal or us would go in to buy him. In many ways it would be like the way we got Suarez who was in the Netherlands when we got him. These days - if a Suarez was playing in Uruguay and got noticed in the world cup then Chelsea, PSG, Monaco, Real Madrid, Barca would be in straight away. Some of these guys are so young when they come over that it takes time to adjust to the climate/culture and then add that to having to perform at 100% for the club - then you see the pressure mounting.

People are saying that this world cup is really good - but I actually think it is very poor in terms of the talent on display overall. There have been some exciting matches and good games - but another thing to consider is that maybe the gap is closing to an extent and that the traditionally great national sides are facing the lesser sides who are better trained to deal with them now.
 
Mourinho is all about defensive formation. He's never been good at developing young flair players. He likes to buy established ones instead. Why any player with flair would want to play under him i don't know.
 
Glen C said:
Mourinho is all about defensive formation. He's never been good at developing young flair players. He likes to buy established ones instead. Why any player with flair would want to play under him i don't know.
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Money and competing for titles. Simple as. Sure work conditions and personal development might not be the best but if you will be competing for league titles, in Europe, and domestic trophies every season and get paid a nice wedge on top of that... pretty compelling. And if you fail to make a position your own, you can always get flogged off to PSG on a bigger contract.
 
Moron: great point about rich European clubs altering the "natural" course of players. Definitely there are a lot of talents out there who never "make it" because it is too much too soon.
 
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