The Suarez/Evra Racism Row
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Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=48021.msg1452964#msg1452964 date=1325353600]
115 pages. And it all comes down to takling Evras Word for what happened. No evidence at all.
[/quote]
That is generally the crux of it..
They base the law of probabilities that 'Suarez gave in their opinion inconsistent evidence' as crux of there reason for charging him..
The fact he admitted to using the term 'Negro' in his witness statement gave them more solid grounds to do so in terms of charging him.
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=48021.msg1452964#msg1452964 date=1325353600]
115 pages. And it all comes down to takling Evras Word for what happened. No evidence at all.
[/quote]
That is generally the crux of it..
They base the law of probabilities that 'Suarez gave in their opinion inconsistent evidence' as crux of there reason for charging him..
The fact he admitted to using the term 'Negro' in his witness statement gave them more solid grounds to do so in terms of charging him.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
From the Beeb. I don't like this one bit:
It added that any further offence "will give rise to consideration of a permanent suspension".
From the Beeb. I don't like this one bit:
It added that any further offence "will give rise to consideration of a permanent suspension".
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
The video evidence of the goalmouth starting from point 239 doesnt do him much favour.
The video evidence of the goalmouth starting from point 239 doesnt do him much favour.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48021.msg1452968#msg1452968 date=1325353876]
From the Beeb. I don't like this one bit:
It added that any further offence "will give rise to consideration of a permanent suspension".
[/quote]
Yes, well it's a long way down from Ivory Tower.
I hope JT will be hit with a seasons suspension given the evidence in that case is far stronger.
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=48021.msg1452968#msg1452968 date=1325353876]
From the Beeb. I don't like this one bit:
It added that any further offence "will give rise to consideration of a permanent suspension".
[/quote]
Yes, well it's a long way down from Ivory Tower.
I hope JT will be hit with a seasons suspension given the evidence in that case is far stronger.
Re: Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1325353557]
"Suarez gave unreliable and inconsistent evidence" is what The FA are basing this on according to Jeff Stelling.
[/quote]
Yup, it's in the document
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1325353557]
"Suarez gave unreliable and inconsistent evidence" is what The FA are basing this on according to Jeff Stelling.
[/quote]
Yup, it's in the document
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
Tbh Ross, I lost interest once i_rushie, dantes and Jules started posting far too long posts. Still like killer whales though.
I do hope they reduce the ban to 3 games, and if they don't, well you can tell us how right you are. Just remember not to back pedal when they jail most English, Irish and German fans in 2022 for drinking in public during the world cup (If the site still exists obviously)! 😉
FFF - A permanent ban and a move to Barca ain't that bad for a player the FA and Evra don't think is racist ...
Tbh Ross, I lost interest once i_rushie, dantes and Jules started posting far too long posts. Still like killer whales though.
I do hope they reduce the ban to 3 games, and if they don't, well you can tell us how right you are. Just remember not to back pedal when they jail most English, Irish and German fans in 2022 for drinking in public during the world cup (If the site still exists obviously)! 😉
FFF - A permanent ban and a move to Barca ain't that bad for a player the FA and Evra don't think is racist ...
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=Binny link=topic=48021.msg1452971#msg1452971 date=1325354021]
The video evidence of the goalmouth starting from point 239 doesnt do him much favour.
[/quote]
Isn't concrete evidence though, there is nothing to say that what Evra has said happened, actually happened..
They are basing the assumption What Evra said appeared to be more consistent than what Suarez said... of what 'actually' happened in the goalmouth..
[quote author=Binny link=topic=48021.msg1452971#msg1452971 date=1325354021]
The video evidence of the goalmouth starting from point 239 doesnt do him much favour.
[/quote]
Isn't concrete evidence though, there is nothing to say that what Evra has said happened, actually happened..
They are basing the assumption What Evra said appeared to be more consistent than what Suarez said... of what 'actually' happened in the goalmouth..
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
so basically they charged suarez, not for what he said but how he said it?
so basically they charged suarez, not for what he said but how he said it?
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1452977#msg1452977 date=1325354361]
So he called him a "negro" and the South American consultants they got are adamant it was meant in an offensive manner.
Seems pretty black and white to me if you'll excuse the pun.
[/quote]
How can you define if something is said in an offensive manner if you don't listen to the person or tone? I mean, it's like judging if something is offensive via instant messenger or e-mail.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1452977#msg1452977 date=1325354361]
So he called him a "negro" and the South American consultants they got are adamant it was meant in an offensive manner.
Seems pretty black and white to me if you'll excuse the pun.
[/quote]
How can you define if something is said in an offensive manner if you don't listen to the person or tone? I mean, it's like judging if something is offensive via instant messenger or e-mail.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48021.msg1452979#msg1452979 date=1325354396]
so basically they charged suarez, not for what he said but how he said it?
[/quote]
based on one persons word against another, however Suarez gave 'unreliable and inconsistent evidence'
The FA better throw the book at John Terry!! why is this fucker still the England Captain ?
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=48021.msg1452979#msg1452979 date=1325354396]
so basically they charged suarez, not for what he said but how he said it?
[/quote]
based on one persons word against another, however Suarez gave 'unreliable and inconsistent evidence'
The FA better throw the book at John Terry!! why is this fucker still the England Captain ?
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=48021.msg1452974#msg1452974 date=1325354121]
What happenes in the video Binny?
[/quote]
240. Mr Evra started the encounter in the goalmouth, albeit Mr Evra was in shock (as he put it) and responding to Mr Suarez having fouled him five minutes previously. He first approached Mr Suarez at the near post. He moved towards him so that they were standing very close to each other, face to face, and Mr Evra then followed Mr Suarez closely as he moved back along the goal-line. Mr Evra opened the conversation with the offensive phrase which we have described in paragraph 87 above, although Mr Suarez did not hear the words he used at the time. Mr Evra was the initiator of this confrontation. He was clearly angry with Mr Suarez.
241. Mr Suarez responded in kind. His facial expression was hostile towards Mr Evra, he was speaking forcefully to him, he looked Mr Evra up and down and then reached out and pinched Mr Evra's bare left forearm. This was an unpleasant and petty gesture which appeared designed to aggravate Mr Evra, and was likely to have that effect.
242. The corner was initially taken, and Mr Suarez and Mr Evra challenged for the ball in the penalty area but away from the goalmouth. It was at this point that the referee blew his whistle to stop play, his assistant referee having told him, via his headset, about the altercation between Mr Evra and Mr Suarez in the goalmouth. The video footage shows that, as play stopped, Mr Suarez said something to Mr Evra which caused Mr Evra to visibly react. He looked taken aback, moved towards the referee saying something while pointing at Mr Suarez. It is this moment on which Mr Suarez finally settled as the moment when he said to Mr Evra "Por que, negro?" in response to Mr Evra's "Don't touch me, South American".
243. The referee spoke to both players. They listened and then walked away. As they did, Mr Suarez put his hand on the back of Mr Evra's head. There are, of course, many ways of touching an opposing player with the hand. Some are obvious attempts at conciliation such as a handshake or sometimes a pat on the back. Others are intended to further aggravate the opposing player whilst, perhaps, being made to appear like an attempt at conciliation. In our judgment, Mr Suarez placing his hand on the back of Mr Evra's head fell into the latter category. It appeared calculated to wind him up and had that effect, which is shown by Mr Evra forcefully pushing Mr Suarez's arm away.
244. The referee called the players back and spoke to them a second time. The referee spoke first to Mr Suarez then Mr Evra. Mr Evra gestured to his head, which is certainly consistent with Mr Evra saying that he did not want Mr Suarez to touch him, which was Mr Evra's evidence. As they walked away, Mr Suarez said something to Mr Evra, and the corner was then taken.
[quote author=jono@home link=topic=48021.msg1452976#msg1452976 date=1325354208]
[quote author=Binny link=topic=48021.msg1452971#msg1452971 date=1325354021]
The video evidence of the goalmouth starting from point 239 doesnt do him much favour.
[/quote]
Isn't concrete evidence though, there is nothing to say that what Evra has said happened, actually happened..
They are basing the assumption What Evra said appeared to be more consistent than what Suarez said... of what 'actually' happened in the goalmouth..
[/quote]
Yes mate, just pointing out Suarez's actions and their interpretation of it puts him in a disadvantage.
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=48021.msg1452974#msg1452974 date=1325354121]
What happenes in the video Binny?
[/quote]
240. Mr Evra started the encounter in the goalmouth, albeit Mr Evra was in shock (as he put it) and responding to Mr Suarez having fouled him five minutes previously. He first approached Mr Suarez at the near post. He moved towards him so that they were standing very close to each other, face to face, and Mr Evra then followed Mr Suarez closely as he moved back along the goal-line. Mr Evra opened the conversation with the offensive phrase which we have described in paragraph 87 above, although Mr Suarez did not hear the words he used at the time. Mr Evra was the initiator of this confrontation. He was clearly angry with Mr Suarez.
241. Mr Suarez responded in kind. His facial expression was hostile towards Mr Evra, he was speaking forcefully to him, he looked Mr Evra up and down and then reached out and pinched Mr Evra's bare left forearm. This was an unpleasant and petty gesture which appeared designed to aggravate Mr Evra, and was likely to have that effect.
242. The corner was initially taken, and Mr Suarez and Mr Evra challenged for the ball in the penalty area but away from the goalmouth. It was at this point that the referee blew his whistle to stop play, his assistant referee having told him, via his headset, about the altercation between Mr Evra and Mr Suarez in the goalmouth. The video footage shows that, as play stopped, Mr Suarez said something to Mr Evra which caused Mr Evra to visibly react. He looked taken aback, moved towards the referee saying something while pointing at Mr Suarez. It is this moment on which Mr Suarez finally settled as the moment when he said to Mr Evra "Por que, negro?" in response to Mr Evra's "Don't touch me, South American".
243. The referee spoke to both players. They listened and then walked away. As they did, Mr Suarez put his hand on the back of Mr Evra's head. There are, of course, many ways of touching an opposing player with the hand. Some are obvious attempts at conciliation such as a handshake or sometimes a pat on the back. Others are intended to further aggravate the opposing player whilst, perhaps, being made to appear like an attempt at conciliation. In our judgment, Mr Suarez placing his hand on the back of Mr Evra's head fell into the latter category. It appeared calculated to wind him up and had that effect, which is shown by Mr Evra forcefully pushing Mr Suarez's arm away.
244. The referee called the players back and spoke to them a second time. The referee spoke first to Mr Suarez then Mr Evra. Mr Evra gestured to his head, which is certainly consistent with Mr Evra saying that he did not want Mr Suarez to touch him, which was Mr Evra's evidence. As they walked away, Mr Suarez said something to Mr Evra, and the corner was then taken.
[quote author=jono@home link=topic=48021.msg1452976#msg1452976 date=1325354208]
[quote author=Binny link=topic=48021.msg1452971#msg1452971 date=1325354021]
The video evidence of the goalmouth starting from point 239 doesnt do him much favour.
[/quote]
Isn't concrete evidence though, there is nothing to say that what Evra has said happened, actually happened..
They are basing the assumption What Evra said appeared to be more consistent than what Suarez said... of what 'actually' happened in the goalmouth..
[/quote]
Yes mate, just pointing out Suarez's actions and their interpretation of it puts him in a disadvantage.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
382. In all the circumstances, we preferred the evidence of Mr Evra. His account was clear and
consistent in all material respects. There is no basis for saying that he lied or was mistaken
in what he heard. We found that Mr Evra's account is probably what happened. The
conversation was all in Spanish. The words which follow (below) were either Mr Evra's
exact words or close approximations to them. Mr Evra said to Mr Suarez "Concha de tuhermana, porque me diste un golpe?", meaning "fucking hell, why did you kick me?". Mr Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro", meaning "Because you're black". Mr Evra then said
"Habla otra vez asi, te voy a dar una porrada", which means "Say it to me again, I'm going
to kick you". Mr Suarez responded "No hablo con los negros", meaning "I don't speak to
blacks". Mr Evra then said "Ahora te voy a dar realmente una porrada", meaning "Okay,
now I think I'm going to punch you". Mr Suarez responded "Dale, negro, negro, negro",
meaning "Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie." This meant that Mr Suarez used the word
"negro" five times in the goalmouth. This was the number that Sir Alex Ferguson reported
to the referee after the game, and which Sir Alex probably learned from Mr Evra. The "five
times" reported to the referee straight after the game corroborates Mr Evra's evidence that
the word was used five times in the goalmouth.
So they go from thinking that Evra is more likely (out of the two) to be a reliable witness onto stating an entire cobversation in spanish that they have no concrete evidence of?
Fucking ridiculous.
382. In all the circumstances, we preferred the evidence of Mr Evra. His account was clear and
consistent in all material respects. There is no basis for saying that he lied or was mistaken
in what he heard. We found that Mr Evra's account is probably what happened. The
conversation was all in Spanish. The words which follow (below) were either Mr Evra's
exact words or close approximations to them. Mr Evra said to Mr Suarez "Concha de tuhermana, porque me diste un golpe?", meaning "fucking hell, why did you kick me?". Mr Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro", meaning "Because you're black". Mr Evra then said
"Habla otra vez asi, te voy a dar una porrada", which means "Say it to me again, I'm going
to kick you". Mr Suarez responded "No hablo con los negros", meaning "I don't speak to
blacks". Mr Evra then said "Ahora te voy a dar realmente una porrada", meaning "Okay,
now I think I'm going to punch you". Mr Suarez responded "Dale, negro, negro, negro",
meaning "Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie." This meant that Mr Suarez used the word
"negro" five times in the goalmouth. This was the number that Sir Alex Ferguson reported
to the referee after the game, and which Sir Alex probably learned from Mr Evra. The "five
times" reported to the referee straight after the game corroborates Mr Evra's evidence that
the word was used five times in the goalmouth.
So they go from thinking that Evra is more likely (out of the two) to be a reliable witness onto stating an entire cobversation in spanish that they have no concrete evidence of?
Fucking ridiculous.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
I can see the ban being reduced but no way do I see the ban being overturned. suarez admits he says negro, evra says it was said to him in an offensive manner, spanish experts say the word 'negro' can be used in an offensive manner. pretty open and shut if you ask me.
I can see the ban being reduced but no way do I see the ban being overturned. suarez admits he says negro, evra says it was said to him in an offensive manner, spanish experts say the word 'negro' can be used in an offensive manner. pretty open and shut if you ask me.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
The first aggravating factor was the number of times Mr Suarez used the word "negro" or
"negros". The entry point of a four-match suspension could apply in a case where the
alleged offender had used insulting words including a reference to colour once only
during a match. We have found that Mr Suarez used the word "negro" or "negros" seven
times in his exchanges with Mr Evra. It happened, also, in a number of phases. First, there
were the exchanges in the goalmouth. Secondly, there was the exchange just before the
referee spoke to the players. Thirdly, there was the exchange just after the referee had
spoken to the players. Whilst we recognised that the exchanges occurred over only a two-
minute spell in the second half of the match, there were multiple uses of the insulting
words by Mr Suarez.
This is based upon them finding Evra a "more reliable witness". No fucking concrete evidence and yet they state is as fact.
The first aggravating factor was the number of times Mr Suarez used the word "negro" or
"negros". The entry point of a four-match suspension could apply in a case where the
alleged offender had used insulting words including a reference to colour once only
during a match. We have found that Mr Suarez used the word "negro" or "negros" seven
times in his exchanges with Mr Evra. It happened, also, in a number of phases. First, there
were the exchanges in the goalmouth. Secondly, there was the exchange just before the
referee spoke to the players. Thirdly, there was the exchange just after the referee had
spoken to the players. Whilst we recognised that the exchanges occurred over only a two-
minute spell in the second half of the match, there were multiple uses of the insulting
words by Mr Suarez.
This is based upon them finding Evra a "more reliable witness". No fucking concrete evidence and yet they state is as fact.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
the goalmouth had how many people around those two? Kuyt? de Gea? No one heard this? Boggles my mind really, but I wonder if that 'joke' tweet by the fake Balotelli account will become the norm now with FA (especially with players you can't trust - say John Terry. "He racially abused me" with no evidence and he's finished).
That being said, we as people have learned a valuable lesson today. Better to trust a Frenchman than a South American (I would use the term Evra used but I'm not like him).
the goalmouth had how many people around those two? Kuyt? de Gea? No one heard this? Boggles my mind really, but I wonder if that 'joke' tweet by the fake Balotelli account will become the norm now with FA (especially with players you can't trust - say John Terry. "He racially abused me" with no evidence and he's finished).
That being said, we as people have learned a valuable lesson today. Better to trust a Frenchman than a South American (I would use the term Evra used but I'm not like him).
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
Can't help but think language might have been a problem that caused his answers to appear dodgy to the FA.
Can't help but think language might have been a problem that caused his answers to appear dodgy to the FA.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1452991#msg1452991 date=1325355011]
yep, that stuck out like a sore thumb.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1452991#msg1452991 date=1325355011]
[/quote]
yep, that stuck out like a sore thumb.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1452991#msg1452991 date=1325355011]
Come on mate ... who can really trust a South American over a European national anyways? 🙂
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1452991#msg1452991 date=1325355011]
[/quote]
Come on mate ... who can really trust a South American over a European national anyways? 🙂
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=48021.msg1452994#msg1452994 date=1325355171]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1452991#msg1452991 date=1325355011]
Come on mate ... who can really trust a South American over a European national anyways? 🙂
[/quote]
You're better than that. You and everyone else I've been arguing with in this thread.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=48021.msg1452994#msg1452994 date=1325355171]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1452991#msg1452991 date=1325355011]
[/quote]
Come on mate ... who can really trust a South American over a European national anyways? 🙂
[/quote]
You're better than that. You and everyone else I've been arguing with in this thread.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
he should have either told the whole truth or lied out of his arse.
maybe suarez should have asked that the questions be given to him in spanish.
he should have either told the whole truth or lied out of his arse.
maybe suarez should have asked that the questions be given to him in spanish.
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)
It reads: "Our findings of fact which are directly relevant to the Charge are as follows: (1) In response to Mr Evra's question 'F*****g hell, why did you kick me,' Mr Suarez said 'Because you are black'.
"(2) In response to Mr Evra's comment 'Say it to me again, I'm going to punch you,' Mr Suarez said 'I don't speak to blacks'.
"(3) In response to Mr Evra's comment: 'Okay, now I think I'm going to punch you,' Mr Suarez said 'Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie'."
=======
That does not look good at all...
It reads: "Our findings of fact which are directly relevant to the Charge are as follows: (1) In response to Mr Evra's question 'F*****g hell, why did you kick me,' Mr Suarez said 'Because you are black'.
"(2) In response to Mr Evra's comment 'Say it to me again, I'm going to punch you,' Mr Suarez said 'I don't speak to blacks'.
"(3) In response to Mr Evra's comment: 'Okay, now I think I'm going to punch you,' Mr Suarez said 'Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie'."
=======
That does not look good at all...
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