The end is nigh

[Ryan]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37418.msg998237#msg998237 date=1259113587]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998227#msg998227 date=1259112314]

I dunno Del, I think it's just worth looking at the bigger picture in these times.

This is his first real blip in his time with us, and I think a lot of that is down to injuries to key players.

We've progressed every year under him, last year being a remarkable achievement to accumulate 82 points despite playing without his best two players for most of the season. Just because we're going through a bad spell now, doesn't mean we throw the fucking toys out of the pram.

All Managers and teams go through shite spells, but the good ones react. Arsenal were rubbish for most of last season due to injuries and blooding youngsters, but are looking much stronger this year. The year United got dumped out of the Group stages, they went on to win the League three years in succession after that.

Good clubs stand by their Managers, and ride it out because if we reacted everytime we hit a blip, we'd be no better than Newcastle.
[/quote]

I agree with you in general, but what is your threshold for what constitutes a blip?

Even our preseason prep was poor, but since then our form was:
LWLWWWWWW, with our best run of form being against Bolton, Burnley, Debrecen, West Ham, Leeds and Hull, hardly a list of greats, but who the fuck cares.

Then, since the win against Hull City, and for two months now:
LLLLWLLDDDW

At some point, if that sort of form continues, it's irredeemable. Is there some point at which you'd say that's enough?


[/quote]

If we don't make the Top 4 I'd be asking serious questions.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998248#msg998248 date=1259115051]
If we don't make the Top 4 I'd be asking serious questions.
[/quote]

And you give him the whole season no matter what? There's not a reasonable situation where you'd say, this is becoming an eventuality and make an earlier change?

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37418.msg998250#msg998250 date=1259115169]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998248#msg998248 date=1259115051]
If we don't make the Top 4 I'd be asking serious questions.
[/quote]

And you give him the whole season no matter what? There's not a reasonable situation where you'd say, this is becoming an eventuality, why not bring a change in now and try to add
[/quote]

Well nothing he has ever done in his time with us has seen us in such a "situation" before Fark, so expecting a fucking catastrophe to unfold now isn't really based on anything.

We're always a better side in the second half of the year anyway. We're in a bad run of form, but we're not about to implode.

 

[Ryan]

It's actually worth reiterating that we won tonight.

 

[Farkmaster]

We've never been in such a dire run of form under his tenure either, so we are already in uncharted territory.

Anyway, I agree that I think we will recapture our form, IF we can get Torres, Riera etc back, and if we can keep a few crucial players fit for any length of time.

 

[Ryan]

Fark, here's our next 6 league games...

Everton (A)
Blackburn (A)
Arsenal (H)
Wigan (H)
Portsmouth (A)
Wolves (H)

I fancy us at Everton this weekend. We've won there twice in the last two years, will be determined to put on a good show after what's happened this week, and Everton are dire.

Let's say worst comes to worst and we lose at Arsenal, we've still got the three worst fucking sides in the League coming up after that.

I know we're out of form, but there's at least 12 points to be gained out of that shite. If we can't beat those teams, *then* I'll start to worry.

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998252#msg998252 date=1259115405]
It's actually worth reiterating that we won tonight.
[/quote]

Only bloody just, and that's twice we have struggled now against (at times lookes worse than them) a team who doesn't even appear on the UEFA rankings!

 

[Ryan]

We didn't struggle.

 

[Fallon]

Were you watching the same game? I'd say getting outplayed for a large chunk of the 2nd half could be considered struggling. What did we do at all? All I remember is one skewed shot from a woefully unfit Stevie G.

 

[Ryan]

Here's some stats for you:

Possession:
Liverpool 65%
Debrecen 35%

Shots:
Liverpool 17
Debrecen 5

Corners:
Liverpool 12
Debrecen 2

I wish we'd "struggle" like that every week.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998279#msg998279 date=1259122167]
Here's some stats for you:

Possession:
Liverpool 65%
Debrecen 35%

Shots:
Liverpool 17
Debrecen 5

Corners:
Liverpool 12
Debrecen 2

I wish we'd "struggle" like that every week.
[/quote]

Were you satisfied with the performance tonight?

If we play the majority of our remaining games this season like that, are you confident we'll finish where we expect (and need) to be?

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998275#msg998275 date=1259121810]
We didn't struggle.
[/quote]

We controlled the game for much of the game, but didn't get a second goal and could have conceded at the end. That same pattern; not enough goal threat in the final third, no creativity in the midfield, and weakness at the back, is what has seen us get sucker punched a ton of times this year, and is the whole reason we got KOd from the champions league in the first place.

Hopefully just winning will be something to build from.

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998279#msg998279 date=1259122167]
Here's some stats for you:

Possession:
Liverpool 65%
Debrecen 35%

Shots:
Liverpool 17
Debrecen 5

Corners:
Liverpool 12
Debrecen 2

I wish we'd "struggle" like that every week.
[/quote]



Because stats always paint a full picture :🙂 The possesion one is like that because of the first half and there is no way that shots stat is 'on target' because I counted something like 5 (including 3 that were just never going to trouble the keeper, and 1 of which was the goal).

Had we continued like we did for the first 25/30 minutes then I would have no complaints, but we sat back on our lead (god how I wish that wasn't a recurring theme for us) and invited pressure. Then when we were crying out for an injection of pace and creativity we had to wait till the 76th minute for the first sub because Lord Rafa deems it a mistake to introduce a player before the 60th minute unless forced to do so by injuries. The way we played tonight would not cut it against 75% of the premier league.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37418.msg998280#msg998280 date=1259122290]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998279#msg998279 date=1259122167]
Here's some stats for you:

Possession:
Liverpool 65%
Debrecen 35%

Shots:
Liverpool 17
Debrecen 5

Corners:
Liverpool 12
Debrecen 2

I wish we'd "struggle" like that every week.
[/quote]

Were you satisfied with the performance tonight?
I thought we played alright considering: we were away from home in the Champions League, our recent shit form, the state of the pitch, the fact we were missing several of our better players, and we won etc etc.

If we play the majority of our remaining games this season like that, are you confident we'll finish where we expect (and need) to be?
That question's a bit of a misnomer really, given that we're hardly going to replicate the same perofmance tonight as we will against Everton (for example) cos the opposition will be better, the pitch will be better, and you can only play (and beat) the sides put in front of you.

Besides, I've spoken at length in this and other threads about how my expectations tonight were obviously different from others. I wanted us to win, and felt that given how fucking rubbish we've been of late - to expect a scintillating performance given the players are short on confidence was totally unrealistic.
[/quote]

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998279#msg998279 date=1259122167]
Here's some stats for you:

Possession:
Liverpool 65%
Debrecen 35%

Shots:
Liverpool 17
Debrecen 5

Corners:
Liverpool 12
Debrecen 2

I wish we'd "struggle" like that every week.
[/quote]

I was reading an article in the FT the other day where a statistical analysis showed that teams with 35% of the possession won more often than those with 55%. That isn't the case here, and it's hardly that illuminating, but it did bring to mind exactly how we've lost a whole slew of games recently. If you are weak at the back, especially from the counter, then the other team will often concede possession yet still win. There have been many games over the last few years where the opposing team has far fewer chances and wins, and it's not just hard luck.

Debrecen lack the tools to really craft a threatening counter, and yet STILL had a chance to win. We have to finish games like this off, which is where lack of goal threat from CM (Lucas missing headers and Mascherano dinking it from 40yards), and weakness in our forwards and wide players ( Kuyt's less than predatory instinct today, Aurelio even playing at LM) costs us massively. It'd be OK if we had the airtight defense that has typified large portions of Benitez' time in charge, but we don't. We have to finish games, and we don't, in fact in the vast majority of games we play, we fade as the other team gains confidence, even a team like Debrecen.

For me what we did today was not a comfortable victory.

Also, it's sad to watch us so slow. There was a counter on at one point, with Benayoun on the ball, and it seemed like 4 Debrecen players streamed past him to get back to cover.

 

[Ryan]

Fark, people are insinuating that because Debrecen had a chance at the end (their only one for the entire game) that we "struggled". It's ludicrous.

Also in response to someone above, I think the reason we retreated and sat back a touch towards the end was a result of the team being desperate to keep a clean sheet for once. I think even if we'd been 2-0 up we'd have done the same to be honest.

 

[Fallon]

Ryan we sat back for the whole of the 2nd half. I can understand not doing anything silly for the last 15 minutes or so but for a whole half we did bugger all.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998285#msg998285 date=1259122573]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=37418.msg998280#msg998280 date=1259122290]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998279#msg998279 date=1259122167]
Here's some stats for you:

Possession:
Liverpool 65%
Debrecen 35%

Shots:
Liverpool 17
Debrecen 5

Corners:
Liverpool 12
Debrecen 2

I wish we'd "struggle" like that every week.
[/quote]

Were you satisfied with the performance tonight?
I thought we played alright considering: we were away from home in the Champions League, our recent shit form, the state of the pitch, the fact we were missing several of our better players, and we won etc etc.

If we play the majority of our remaining games this season like that, are you confident we'll finish where we expect (and need) to be?
That question's a bit of a misnomer really, given that we're hardly going to replicate the same perofmance tonight as we will against Everton (for example) cos the opposition will be better, the pitch will be better, and you can only play (and beat) the sides put in front of you.

Besides, I've spoken at length in this and other threads about how my expectations tonight were obviously different from others. I wanted us to win, and felt that given how fucking rubbish we've been of late - to expect a scintillating performance given the players are short on confidence was totally unrealistic.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I'm really just asking your opinion about whether that level of performance, if reproduced against better teams, will be good enough...

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Fallon link=topic=37418.msg998291#msg998291 date=1259123613]
Ryan we sat back for the whole of the 2nd half. I can understand not doing anything silly for the last 15 minutes or so but for a whole half we did bugger all.
[/quote]

Fallon, that's simply not true.

We created more chances, had more shots, had more time on the ball, and greater amount of possession in the second half.

 

[Fallon]

If you can name one clear cut chance I will shut up right now. The shots we had were a joke, a skewed Gerrard shot (trying for placement when he should have put his foot through it), a Row Z special (when he should have gone for placement), Kuyt ignoring 4 of his team mates to blast it from a ridiculous angle, a 40 yard effort from Masch which was never going to beat the keeper, one from Insua that was 5 yards left of the post and a handful of even worse efforts than aren't worth mentioning. So 1 on target in the whole 2nd half, whoop! Heck, it took one of our defenders for us to actually beat a man before getting into the box in the 2nd half.

We prolly did have more possession, but if it was more than 58% I would be gobsmacked. We didn't keep the ball well, we didn't have people attacking the few good balls that went into the box (both Aurelio and Magic had a belter each after busting a gut to get upfield, and for what?), we left huge gaps here there and everywhere (Kuyt, Insua and Lucas being the main problems) and we had less pace than the opposition (two breaks I saw us dordle along while Debrecen players ran flat out to get back (which they did)).

I know it's been a bad few months and our confidence must be in the drain, but if you can't get up (properly) for a make or break game like this then when can you? Hell I would have been happy if we'd just managed to do the basics eg. When it gets to the 88th minute start to hold the ball, and if in the opposition's half get it into the corners and bloody keep it there. Had we done that tonight then Debrecen prolly wouldn't have had that chance in the last couple of minutes.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Fallon link=topic=37418.msg998294#msg998294 date=1259124963]
If you can name one clear cut chance I will shut up right now.

[/quote]

Gerrard straight through from Lucas' pass. Defender with last ditch block. Clear cut chance.

Now shut up.

 

[Ryan]

Oh, and Gerrard's shot with his left foot. Level with the penalty spot, only the keeper to beat.

That's two.

 

[Fallon]

FCOL, there is no way.... oh forget it. As sad as it was the way we played tonight, it's almost as sad for me that there's people who thought we played well. If that's the level you are happy with then I have no doubt you are going to be very pleased at times during the upcoming months.

 

[Ryan]

You're not keeping your promises Fallon.

 

[Fallon]

:-X

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998296#msg998296 date=1259125666]
Oh, and Gerrard's shot with his left foot. Level with the penalty spot, only the keeper to beat.

That's two.
[/quote]

I know what I said, but eh? Which one was that? If that's the one I think you mean then yes, that was the one I have been referring to as a skewed shot, left foot or not that was poooor.


*Goes back to :-\*

 

[Doc_Rule]

We were piss-poor tonight. Horrendous performance against a team currently 6th in the Hungarian League.

That's about the same as being 8th in the scottish league.

We managed one goal against a team that has conceded 13 goals in 3 games against the other teams in the group. And 2 in 2 against us. Pathetic.


Ryans comical stats mean about as much as Houllier's claim that we were the most attacking team in the league under him based on "statistics" and Rafa's claim that we're not a boring defensive minded team playing dross under him, also based on "statistics".

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998311#msg998311 date=1259133718]
Ryans comical stats mean about as much as Houllier's claim that we were the most attacking team in the league under him based on "statistics" and Rafa's claim that we're not a boring defensive minded team playing dross under him, also based on "statistics".
[/quote]

We haven't played anything like defensive minded dross over the last couple of years under Rafa, especially last year, where we played some beautiful football at times. We've even had little glimmers of good football this year. I doubt Rafa actually addressed the issue of whether we are or are not "a boring defensive minded team" but it is hardly misleading for him to point to the fact that we've enjoyed great goal production, and played good attacking football.

When I think of the team that was involved in playing that football, all but one are still here, we've made a significant improvement at RB and hence seen our best work all season down the right involving exchanges with Johnson, Gerrard, Kuyt and Torres. Riera is a big miss, despite the criticism directed toward him, he is skillful, retains posession, has good movement and makes us a far more balanced prospect in attack. Torres and Gerrard's injuries have been big misses, for reasons that should not require explanation.

We are currently not playing very well at all, is that what you came on here to point out? If so, why overstate the case?

The problem is lack of depth and goal threat up front. Kuyt and Gerrard should have scored in this last game, and the latter on form would have. A left side of Aurelio and Insua isn't part of a balanced team, and neither is a CM partnership of Lucas and Mascherano.

Doc, we get it, you don't like Rafa, you can join a large club of people in that category, however don't go into revisionist history mode.

 

[keniget]

I didn't have time to read the whole thread or any of the others, but I'd just like to say that it's a little silly to call for us his head over something we had no control over.

We won our game like we had to, although once again in a less than convincing and satisfactory manner, however given the state of our fucking form at the moment, a 1-0 will do me just fine.

We went out of the CL when we conceded that late goal at Lyon and all the threads at the time acknowledged it. Last night hurt, it did, but the fact that we had that little bit of hope of qualifying never changed the fact that we were never going to get through.

Luckily those teams around us in the league have been rather inconsistent as well - it's not like last season when Villa were ahead of Arsenal by over 10 points past the half way point. It's still relatively early and we're not that far off - things have not yet gone past the point of no return.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998290#msg998290 date=1259123451]
Fark, people are insinuating that because Debrecen had a chance at the end (their only one for the entire game) that we "struggled". It's ludicrous.

Also in response to someone above, I think the reason we retreated and sat back a touch towards the end was a result of the team being desperate to keep a clean sheet for once. I think even if we'd been 2-0 up we'd have done the same to be honest.
[/quote]

Sitting back wasn't an option though, or at least it shouldn't have been. If Lyon had managed a late equalizer then we would have needed to put 5 past Fiorentina at Anfield. We should have busting a gut to get extra goals and yet there was an overriding sense of apathy in the way way we went about things.

It pissed me off to see the team on tenterhooks as they watched the dying moments of the Lyon game. It was the most bothered they'd looked all night.