The end is nigh

[Bernowatson]

[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=37418.msg997949#msg997949 date=1259100956]
I don't think to play Dossena instead of Insua would make us any better.
[/quote]

it wasn't my point. We spent 6 million on a left back that we don't ever use...... But no one blinks an eyelid.

Plus what else annoys me is the number of players we have bought and sold in his tenure. There is no stability there, it's crazy to think how many strikers we have had in 5 years for example.

And yet The Lying Rag shines out of his ass for some

 

[rage]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37418.msg997961#msg997961 date=1259101201]
[quote author=rage link=topic=37418.msg997946#msg997946 date=1259100937]
at this rate it'll be torres or rafa.[/quote]

I know this result delights you as it helps to solidify your agenda but at least try and come up with stuff that makes a little sense. Please.
[/quote]

the result doesn't delight me and im surprised this rafa or torres bit doesn't make sense to you.

we're a cash strapped club - what happens if we don't make top 4?
torres is a world class player - how long will he want to play in a team competing for 4th and maybe playing in the europa league next season?

 

[Holle]

[quote author=rage link=topic=37418.msg997971#msg997971 date=1259101395]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37418.msg997961#msg997961 date=1259101201]
[quote author=rage link=topic=37418.msg997946#msg997946 date=1259100937]
at this rate it'll be torres or rafa.[/quote]

I know this result delights you as it helps to solidify your agenda but at least try and come up with stuff that makes a little sense. Please.
[/quote]

the result doesn't delight me and im surprised this rafa or torres bit doesn't make sense to you.

we're a cash strapped club - what happens if we don't make top 4?
torres is a world class player - how long will he want to play in a team competing for 4th and maybe playing in the europa league next season?
[/quote]

It would only make sense if Rafa staying would mean us missing CL qualification. Which it doesn't.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=rage link=topic=37418.msg997971#msg997971 date=1259101395]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37418.msg997961#msg997961 date=1259101201]
[quote author=rage link=topic=37418.msg997946#msg997946 date=1259100937]
at this rate it'll be torres or rafa.[/quote]

I know this result delights you as it helps to solidify your agenda but at least try and come up with stuff that makes a little sense. Please.
[/quote]

the result doesn't delight me and im surprised this rafa or torres bit doesn't make sense to you.

we're a cash strapped club - what happens if we don't make top 4?
torres is a world class player - how long will he want to play in a team competing for 4th and maybe playing in the europa league next season?
[/quote]

If we win the Europa League, it's more money than you get if you reach the knockout stages of the Champions League, so all is not lost.

Torres stayed with Atleti for how long? And the only they competed with was uuuh ... yah ... nothing. He won't leave us this year, though if this continues next year - he may reconsider his position.

But whatever. You're right. Que Sera, Sera

 

[rage]

this season or next? i'd be surprised if we qualify this season.

and if we don't next season or limp a 4th like houllier's last season will torres hang around to give the new manager a try?

 

[Y1]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg997954#msg997954 date=1259101038]
There is not one single tiny teeny weeny petite mini smidgeon of a chance of him being sacked this season folks, so you can all shut the fuck up.
[/quote]

Tru dat. We have no choice but to live with it.

 

[LarryHagman]

Minimum requirement has to be (1) good run in the CL & (2) top 4 in the Prem. Seeing as (1) is fucked, if we don't achieve (2) his position will be untenable and he should be sacked regardless of finances. Plain and simple, failure to achieve either of those season start objectives would be unacceptable. I don't believe for a second he'll walk, regardless of what happens.

As for this season's 'bad luck', I don't think our injury problems are any worse than Arsenal had to contend with last season. The only difference is, after the multi millions we have spent, we are still reliant on 2 players; they have a much better squad.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37418.msg998193#msg998193 date=1259108556]

Minimum requirement has to be (1) good run in the CL & (2) top 4 in the Prem. Seeing as (1) is fucked, if we don't achieve (2) his position will be untenable and he should be sacked regardless of finances. Plain and simple, failure to achieve either of those season start objectives would be unacceptable. I don't believe for a second he'll walk, regardless of what happens.

As for this season's 'bad luck', I don't think our injury problems are any worse than Arsenal had to contend with last season. The only difference is, after the multi millions we have spent, we are still reliant on 2 players; they have a much better squad.

[/quote]

Arsenal badly struggled to make the Top 4 last season with that "much better squad" Larry.

 

[Doc_Rule]

If we sack Rafa he just continues to get paid his normal wage until he finds himself new employment. There's no £15million pay or any of that shite that's been rumoured. Unless he sits at home like Sven did he won't get all that much. Sack him now, he'll have a job by next summer. Maximum it will cost is £4million.

He should be sacked. He's lost the dressing room by the looks of things. The players are playing with no desire or ambition. And he's losing the fans.

This is Houllier all over again.



And Ryan, Arsenal's squad is much younger than ours, cost far less than ours and has much more potential than ours.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg997954#msg997954 date=1259101038]
There is not one single tiny teeny weeny petite mini smidgeon of a chance of him being sacked this season folks, so you can all shut the fuck up.
[/quote]

That was a known fact after he signed his mega-pound contract in February.

 

[Doc_Rule]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg997954#msg997954 date=1259101038]
There is not one single tiny teeny weeny petite mini smidgeon of a chance of him being sacked this season folks, so you can all shut the fuck up.
[/quote]

And i bet you said the exact same thing about Houllier.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998194#msg998194 date=1259108647]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37418.msg998193#msg998193 date=1259108556]

Minimum requirement has to be (1) good run in the CL & (2) top 4 in the Prem. Seeing as (1) is fucked, if we don't achieve (2) his position will be untenable and he should be sacked regardless of finances. Plain and simple, failure to achieve either of those season start objectives would be unacceptable. I don't believe for a second he'll walk, regardless of what happens.

As for this season's 'bad luck', I don't think our injury problems are any worse than Arsenal had to contend with last season. The only difference is, after the multi millions we have spent, we are still reliant on 2 players; they have a much better squad.

[/quote]

Arsenal badly struggled to make the Top 4 last season with that "much better squad" Larry.
[/quote]

I thought they finished 10 points clear of 5th Ry, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Avmenon]

He might have, but that's probably the same reason why it won't happen again.

We're a laughing stock at the moment; we're not going to see another Houillier-esque payout.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37418.msg998201#msg998201 date=1259109049]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998194#msg998194 date=1259108647]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=37418.msg998193#msg998193 date=1259108556]

Minimum requirement has to be (1) good run in the CL & (2) top 4 in the Prem. Seeing as (1) is fucked, if we don't achieve (2) his position will be untenable and he should be sacked regardless of finances. Plain and simple, failure to achieve either of those season start objectives would be unacceptable. I don't believe for a second he'll walk, regardless of what happens.

As for this season's 'bad luck', I don't think our injury problems are any worse than Arsenal had to contend with last season. The only difference is, after the multi millions we have spent, we are still reliant on 2 players; they have a much better squad.

[/quote]

Arsenal badly struggled to make the Top 4 last season with that "much better squad" Larry.
[/quote]

I thought they finished 10 points clear of 5th Ry, maybe I'm wrong.

[/quote]

Villa were in 4th position up until about 3/4 of the way through the season until they imploded. All the talk for most of last season was that Arsenal might struggle to finish in the top 4. I suspect had the Man city side of this year been around last season, that might have been a possibility.

Arsenal had a shcoking start to last season, and were very ordinary for most of the rest of it, mainly due to injuries to their better players (Adebayor, Van Persie, Eduardo, Fabregas and Clichy), so not dissimialr to us this season in many ways.

 

[Doc_Rule]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=37418.msg998202#msg998202 date=1259109112]
He might have, but that's probably the same reason why it won't happen again.

We're a laughing stock at the moment; we're not going to see another Houillier-esque payout.
[/quote]

Houllier got £2million! Hardly broke the bank!

We're a laughing stock because of Rafa. He needs to go.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998206#msg998206 date=1259109572]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=37418.msg998202#msg998202 date=1259109112]
He might have, but that's probably the same reason why it won't happen again.

We're a laughing stock at the moment; we're not going to see another Houillier-esque payout.
[/quote]

Houllier got £2million! Hardly broke the bank!

We're a laughing stock because of Rafa. He needs to go.
[/quote]

The payout was 10 million when you factor in the termination of his staff.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=37418.msg997888#msg997888 date=1259099957]
I don't believe for a second that we'll sack him, no way. I keep thinking after this bad patch, something amazing is bound to follow.

It was a pitiful site watching the Liverpool players watching the last few minutes of the Lyon game, it really was. Maybe it will give them the kick up the backside they need.


[/quote]

Tonight was a 'fantastic performance' according to our captain. Quite the confidence booster.

 

[Squiggles]

He's fortunate in a way to have a derby game so close to the CL elimination; a win keep the fans on his side for a while yet. I'm not bothered if gets sacked any more. I'm not even going to get into it, it's all been said before and I don't have the energy for the debate. But really he's to blame for my detachment of Liverpool Football Club and I hate him for it right now.

He's a manager so close to being a great one and thoroughly understands tactics like few else out there, but is prone to massive lapses of judgement, is incapable of building a squad, and has massive blind-spots with Dirk and Lucas, which has cost us in the past and in the present.

Win a few games or walk out the door. Our club and it's fans, despite everything, deserve better than this shower of shit.

 

[Delinquent]

Benitez does not seem to respond well to pressure, and it's becoming harder and harder to make excuses for him.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=37418.msg998223#msg998223 date=1259111760]
Benitez does not seem to respond well to pressure, and it's becoming harder and harder to make excuses for him.
[/quote]

I dunno Del, I think it's just worth looking at the bigger picture in these times.

This is his first real blip in his time with us, and I think a lot of that is down to injuries to key players.

We've progressed every year under him, last year being a remarkable achievement to accumulate 82 points despite playing without his best two players for most of the season. Just because we're going through a bad spell now, doesn't mean we throw the fucking toys out of the pram.

All Managers and teams go through shite spells, but the good ones react. Arsenal were rubbish for most of last season due to injuries and blooding youngsters, but are looking much stronger this year. The year United got dumped out of the Group stages, they went on to win the League three years in succession after that.

Good clubs stand by their Managers, and ride it out because if we reacted everytime we hit a blip, we'd be no better than Newcastle.

 

[Doc_Rule]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=37418.msg998207#msg998207 date=1259109645]
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998206#msg998206 date=1259109572]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=37418.msg998202#msg998202 date=1259109112]
He might have, but that's probably the same reason why it won't happen again.

We're a laughing stock at the moment; we're not going to see another Houillier-esque payout.
[/quote]

Houllier got £2million! Hardly broke the bank!

We're a laughing stock because of Rafa. He needs to go.
[/quote]

The payout was 10 million when you factor in the termination of his staff.
[/quote]

You think his staff got paid £8million between them? Don't talk daft! The clubs end of year report might have said 10million under terminations, but that covered a lot more than Houllier and his staff.

 

[Squiggles]

It's a fair point but Arsenal have a lot more reasons to keep their faith in Wenger than we do in Benitez.

We should wait until the end of the season before really making a decision, however if this run of form continues into the next month or so, I think it's time for him to walk. However good the club, however loyal the chairman, this record is unacceptable and we need to see a difference pretty damn quickly.

 

[Doc_Rule]

Wenger has multiple league titles to point to. And he's completely rebuilt his team successfully a number of times and currently has the best young team in world football. As well as that Arsenal play great football.

This is not a "blip". Blips last 5 or 6 games. We've been shite since the start of pre-season! That's 4 months! We've beaten one decent side this year. One.

Ryan is desperately looking for excuses to keep Rafa. Nonsense about good clubs stand by their managers. Mourinho won back to back league titles and he got sacked because of a rough start to the season and he wasn't nearly as much of a dick to Roman the Russian as Rafa has been to the Yanks.

 

[Y1]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998227#msg998227 date=1259112314]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=37418.msg998223#msg998223 date=1259111760]
Benitez does not seem to respond well to pressure, and it's becoming harder and harder to make excuses for him.
[/quote]

I dunno Del, I think it's just worth looking at the bigger picture in these times.

This is his first real blip in his time with us, and I think a lot of that is down to injuries to key players.

We've progressed every year under him, last year being a remarkable achievement to accumulate 82 points despite playing without his best two players for most of the season. Just because we're going through a bad spell now, doesn't mean we throw the fucking toys out of the pram.

All Managers and teams go through shite spells, but the good ones react. Arsenal were rubbish for most of last season due to injuries and blooding youngsters, but are looking much stronger this year. The year United got dumped out of the Group stages, they went on to win the League three years in succession after that.

Good clubs stand by their Managers, and ride it out because if we reacted everytime we hit a blip, we'd be no better than Newcastle.
[/quote]

Hear hear. We all need to step back and take a deep breath, painful as it is.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998227#msg998227 date=1259112314]

I dunno Del, I think it's just worth looking at the bigger picture in these times.

This is his first real blip in his time with us, and I think a lot of that is down to injuries to key players.

We've progressed every year under him, last year being a remarkable achievement to accumulate 82 points despite playing without his best two players for most of the season. Just because we're going through a bad spell now, doesn't mean we throw the fucking toys out of the pram.

All Managers and teams go through shite spells, but the good ones react. Arsenal were rubbish for most of last season due to injuries and blooding youngsters, but are looking much stronger this year. The year United got dumped out of the Group stages, they went on to win the League three years in succession after that.

Good clubs stand by their Managers, and ride it out because if we reacted everytime we hit a blip, we'd be no better than Newcastle.
[/quote]

I agree with you in general, but what is your threshold for what constitutes a blip?

Even our preseason prep was poor, but since then our form was:
LWLWWWWWW, with our best run of form being against Bolton, Burnley, Debrecen, West Ham, Leeds and Hull, hardly a list of greats, but who the fuck cares.

Then, since the win against Hull City, and for two months now:
LLLLWLLDDDW

At some point, if that sort of form continues, it's irredeemable. Is there some point at which you'd say that's enough?

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998233#msg998233 date=1259113139]
Wenger has multiple league titles to point to. And he's completely rebuilt his team successfully a number of times and currently has the best young team in world football. As well as that Arsenal play great football.

This is not a "blip". Blips last 5 or 6 games. We've been shite since the start of pre-season! That's 4 months! We've beaten one decent side this year. One.

Ryan is desperately looking for excuses to keep Rafa. Nonsense about good clubs stand by their managers. Mourinho won back to back league titles and he got sacked because of a rough start to the season and he wasn't nearly as much of a dick to Roman the Russian as Rafa has been to the Yanks.
[/quote]

I think Roman may be in a slightly stronger position than the "yanks".

 

[Doc_Rule]

Not really. Mourinho was adored by all Chelski fans and players. Roman was risking a major revolt getting rid of Mourinho. Rafa is far from loved by the players and the fans have started to turn against him.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37418.msg998227#msg998227 date=1259112314]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=37418.msg998223#msg998223 date=1259111760]
Benitez does not seem to respond well to pressure, and it's becoming harder and harder to make excuses for him.
[/quote]

I dunno Del, I think it's just worth looking at the bigger picture in these times.

This is his first real blip in his time with us, and I think a lot of that is down to injuries to key players.

We've progressed every year under him, last year being a remarkable achievement to accumulate 82 points despite playing without his best two players for most of the season. Just because we're going through a bad spell now, doesn't mean we throw the fucking toys out of the pram.

All Managers and teams go through shite spells, but the good ones react. Arsenal were rubbish for most of last season due to injuries and blooding youngsters, but are looking much stronger this year. The year United got dumped out of the Group stages, they went on to win the League three years in succession after that.

Good clubs stand by their Managers, and ride it out because if we reacted everytime we hit a blip, we'd be no better than Newcastle.
[/quote]

While I may be struggling to see Rafa's prospective value to us, I'm not one of those calling for his head. I don't believe that any team should be entering a season with a manager they don't trust, never mind sacking them half-way through it. It just seems that the more the media call on Benitez to do the obvious, the more he rebels against it. Almost as if to show them who's boss. And increasingly to our detriment.

I just don't trust him to get it right in the Premiership any more. But any decision to get rid of him would have to depend on a legitimate trust in his replacement to do better.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=37418.msg997866#msg997866 date=1259099562]
How many more games without a win can we go before the manager is sacked?

And yes, I know we won tonight, but it feels about as defeat-like as a victory can.

I'm losing faith as fast as water being sucked down a plughole.
[/quote]

Ha a bit rich coming from the man who berated anyone who had a negative thing to say.

We cannot afford to sack Rafa and that is the bottom line.

We will go on a run after xmas and sneak fourth.

The real question is what can Rafa do to not lose the dressing room.

His complete lack of progress in the league was only tolerated because we were always very successful in Europe.

Well now we are looking at the Europa cup and possibly no European football next year.

I'm sure the players are being to wonder what is going on.

Rafa is making some very stubborn decisions of late.

I always thought this season would be poor but I didn't think we would sink so fast so quick.

We need everyone fit ASAP and we need our big players to start playing like they are the heartbeat of the team.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998239#msg998239 date=1259113774]
Not really. Mourinho was adored by all Chelski fans and players. Roman was risking a major revolt getting rid of Mourinho. Rafa is far from loved by the players and the fans have started to turn against him.
[/quote]

Look, I don't know why we are doing this because it's not a relevant comparison. The ownership situations that Rafa and Mourinho have worked under at Liverpool and Chelsea couldn't be more different.

One was given unlimited funds as part of a club which wasn't intending profitability for over a decade. The other was given a decent kitty, but it was borrowed against, and was allowed very little net spend this summer due to the servicing of interest on this debt, and banks demanding restructuring. One has been a fairly quiet, but very present owner, seeming involved, even as the owner of a new toy. The other two have been the awkward owners of an absentee colonial plantation, and have split publicly on many issues. They secretely tried to get rid of Rafa, and proposed an entirely unproven replacement. Rafa responded by leveraging the good will of the fans to get what he wants.

Of course this good will is quite thin at this point, and he couldn't get away with similar statements, but having not been adequately supported this summer, due to debt which is risked without providing any benefit to the club, I'd hardly say it was the owners who were, in general, hard done by.

Roman's ownership is unassailable, wheraes while many fans are against Rafa now, I think the vast majority would rather have a new manager under new owners.

The idea that Roman risked major revolt is absurd. He's the prime reason that that club is what it is today, and he's got rid of whatever managers he has wanted to, with the odd poster held up at a game, but not much else.