The curious case of the RB who thought he was a CM

[Whaddapie]

All three of them are better RBs than Trent. What they may lack v Trent (in passing ability) they more than make up for in a far, far more complete defensive game and a strong attacking side to their game too. Walker is amoung the best RBs to play in the last 30 years...

What statistics are you talking about here? Genuinely, I don't know what they are. I watch the game and see how things play out, and then I talk about what I see. I do know that other teams don't specifically target those RBs as a huge weakness to exploit when they play against them. They do against us. Have for years now.

 

[Hansern]

Nevermind, I see its pointless to have a discussion, but you continue to watch the game as you do.

 

[StevieM]

What is it people actually want here?

Someone that defends better than Trent that won’t come close to providing the creativity and assists from RB that Trent would do?

A return to the system whereby Trent stays high up the pitch, wide right, so that teams can exploit the space in behind him?

Move Trent into midfield so that he can transfer his lack of defensive ability there?

Re-create the entire system around Trent so as we can, well, I’m not quite sure as to what that’ll do?

Sell him?

I’m not really sure what the issue is - getting Trent more involved while covering the things he’s not so good at is only one of a stack of issues facing Klopp - not least that while our pretty much entirely new midfield has done well, it’s no surprise they’re not clicking like a well oiled machine that’s been playing together for years (on account of them only having been together for a dozen or so games).

Surely the hybrid system is designed not only to get the best out of Trent and mitigate for his weaknesses, but also to address the problems that come with being a high pressing, possession team that plays against a lot of low block teams that are designed to do us on the counter?

 

[binomial]

Someone that defends better than Trent that won’t come close to providing the creativity and assists from RB that Trent would do?

Yes, creativity and assists from fullback has never been something you needed to win titles before Robbo and Trent came because you’d have midfielders and wide players capable of doing this. It’s a position that requires balance, Robbo could attack at will whilst also being very reliable defensively. A player like Hakimi would transform this side currently whilst also finding a place for Trent in the side.

A return to the system whereby Trent stays high up the pitch, wide right, so that teams can exploit the space in behind him?

Or this yes, only we wouldn’t be exploited as ideally we’d have someone doing the Hendo covering….Klopp won’t leave that area vacated to invite teams onto us, Trent high and wide or maybe as a wingback is the best we’d see from him. When he’s wide is when we really see his passing flourish.

 

[StevieM]

Yes, creativity and assists from fullback has never been something you needed to win titles before Robbo and Trent came because you’d have midfielders and wide players capable of doing this. It’s a position that requires balance, Robbo could attack at will whilst also being very reliable defensively. A player like Hakimi would transform this side currently whilst also finding a place for Trent in the side.


Or this yes, only we wouldn’t be exploited as ideally we’d have someone doing the Hendo covering….Klopp won’t leave that area vacated to invite teams onto us, Trent high and wide or maybe as a wingback is the best we’d see from him. When he’s wide is when we really see his passing flourish.

Mate, I hate to point it out to you, but teams were exploiting us and on the right when we had the actual Hendo doing “the Hendo covering”.

If you have Trent high and wide, and a midfielder holding back to fill the vacant RB role, then you’re creating a big hole in midfield that the other 2 midfielders can’t plug or we’re diminishing the midfield creativity.

Surely you remember the treads on here when we had a midfield consisting of Hendo, Gini & Milner - when there was much gnashing of teeth and gurning at the lack of creativity.

I don’t get where you put Trent if you add in a new RB - I really don’t, unless you plan on selling Slobbers.

The system Klopp is creating is designed to get the best out of not only Trent, but other players.

However, if you absolutely want to have Trent playing at RM, providing width for Salah, then you’ll likely have to sacrifice playing Nunez through the middle, as we’ll need a false 9 dropping back into midfield or every team in the planet will just waltz through our centre.

Also - Robbo had Van Dijk covering behind him - when he was practically a one man defence.

 

[binomial]

Mate, I hate to point it out to you, but teams were exploiting us and on the right when we had the actual Hendo doing “the Hendo covering”.

Only once he’d fully run out of steam, the 18/19-19/20 were the best seasons we’ve ever played in our history. We were incredible defensively in both seasons.

If you have Trent high and wide, and a midfielder holding back to fill the vacant RB role, then you’re creating a big hole in midfield that the other 2 midfielders can’t plug or we’re diminishing the midfield creativity.

No we wouldn’t because this would only be in transition once we’ve lost possession….you can’t diminish creativity from midfield when you’re out of possession so Trent at this point would be tracking back from his high and wide position to cover any holes in midfield.

Surely you remember the treads on here when we had a midfield consisting of Hendo, Gini & Milner - when there was much gnashing of teeth and gurning at the lack of creativity.

From who? Why was it a problem when it was a title winning midfield? How many times does Klopp need to say they were the running machine of the team to allow the front 3 to cause havoc. A midfield that dominated possession in 95% of games and suffocated teams with their relentless pressing. Why was that a problem?

I don’t get where you put Trent if you add in a new RB - I really don’t, unless you plan on selling Slobbers.

There is no need to sell anyone Stevie, we have a short enough squad as it is and it’s good to have different options available. Get a new starting RB, play Trent as the RCM, Szobo in the centre and Mac on the left. Trent and Szobo can also rotate in game, not a problem.Or we do what we did in pre-season and have Trent and Mac as a double pivot (only this time with a proper RB in the side) and Szobo in a free role ahead of them.

The system Klopp is creating is designed to get the best out of not only Trent, but other players.

Only it hasn’t brought out the best in Trent, or Robbo for that matter.

 

[moron]

What is it people actually want here?

Someone that defends better than Trent that won’t come close to providing the creativity and assists from RB that Trent would do?

A return to the system whereby Trent stays high up the pitch, wide right, so that teams can exploit the space in behind him?

Move Trent into midfield so that he can transfer his lack of defensive ability there?

Re-create the entire system around Trent so as we can, well, I’m not quite sure as to what that’ll do?

Sell him?

I’m not really sure what the issue is - getting Trent more involved while covering the things he’s not so good at is only one of a stack of issues facing Klopp - not least that while our pretty much entirely new midfield has done well, it’s no surprise they’re not clicking like a well oiled machine that’s been playing together for years (on account of them only having been together for a dozen or so games).

Surely the hybrid system is designed not only to get the best out of Trent and mitigate for his weaknesses, but also to address the problems that come with being a high pressing, possession team that plays against a lot of low block teams that are designed to do us on the counter?

All great questions ( I mean it). The truth is - I don't even think I know what we want or are asking for. You see - the problem is coming from the player - who on all accounts does not want to be your typical RB, because he has a lot more skill to offer his team. But the question is - at what cost to the overall team ? - I think this has been Southgate's issue all along - and it's actually heat-breaking because the truth is - he can only do one thing at a time :-

• Be defensive RB - and we know he can defend very well when that's the priority - and therefore don't contribute much to attack.
• Be attacking RB and PUT those balls in while leaving lots of space behind and not having Walker level recovery pace to get back
• Be in midfield just looking to pass great but not being able to do the hard yards of what is required of a midfielder.

Those are your 3 options for him - each one has an advantage and a big disadvantage, and quite frankly none of us have an actual clue. What makes it worse in the England setup is that many of his peers can do a better job of their natural roles minus the long range passing ability to his level.

It would be wonderful, if he could be a DM type player, and use the abilities he has - but I don't think he can make a good DM.

 

[rubans]

What is it people actually want here?

Someone that defends better than Trent that won’t come close to providing the creativity and assists from RB that Trent would do?

A return to the system whereby Trent stays high up the pitch, wide right, so that teams can exploit the space in behind him?

Move Trent into midfield so that he can transfer his lack of defensive ability there?

Re-create the entire system around Trent so as we can, well, I’m not quite sure as to what that’ll do?

Sell him?

I’m not really sure what the issue is - getting Trent more involved while covering the things he’s not so good at is only one of a stack of issues facing Klopp - not least that while our pretty much entirely new midfield has done well, it’s no surprise they’re not clicking like a well oiled machine that’s been playing together for years (on account of them only having been together for a dozen or so games).

Surely the hybrid system is designed not only to get the best out of Trent and mitigate for his weaknesses, but also to address the problems that come with being a high pressing, possession team that plays against a lot of low block teams that are designed to do us on the counter?

Aaron Wan-Bissaka, some wanted him since his Palace days and itms annoying United keep beating us to these English gems.

 

[binomial]

Trippier before he went to Spurs would've been good.

Coufal before he went to West Ham.

Someone like Di Lorenzo 3-4 years ago.

Even Dumfries after the Euro's he had and before he went to Inter.

 

[StevieM]

Only once he’d fully run out of steam, the 18/19-19/20 were the best seasons we’ve ever played in our history. We were incredible defensively in both seasons.



No we wouldn’t because this would only be in transition once we’ve lost possession….you can’t diminish creativity from midfield when you’re out of possession so Trent at this point would be tracking back from his high and wide position to cover any holes in midfield.



From who? Why was it a problem when it was a title winning midfield? How many times does Klopp need to say they were the running machine of the team to allow the front 3 to cause havoc. A midfield that dominated possession in 95% of games and suffocated teams with their relentless pressing. Why was that a problem?



There is no need to sell anyone Stevie, we have a short enough squad as it is and it’s good to have different options available. Get a new starting RB, play Trent as the RCM, Szobo in the centre and Mac on the left. Trent and Szobo can also rotate in game, not a problem.Or we do what we did in pre-season and have Trent and Mac as a double pivot (only this time with a proper RB in the side) and Szobo in a free role ahead of them.


Only it hasn’t brought out the best in Trent, or Robbo for that matter.

In theory it’s great - if we could ask all opposition teams to also revert their tactic to 2019.

Even better, maybe we could ask opposition teams to all to play a very high line against us and not press.

Interesting you speak of us in transition - I think that’s part of the reason for Trent’s hybrid role - it’s a way of making sure he can get back to the RB position more quickly. To be fair, the LB area has caused us as much if not more issues this season.

Also - I know it’s easy to say - we were great in 2019 and we should go back to that - but we don’t have the same players orvthise players aren’t quite capable of playing the same way - in addition all our opponents have developed, changed, tweaked their systems, so neither are they the same.

The point being - we can’t keep recreating the past to go forward.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Thats a load of shite and you know it. We're here to talk all facets of the game and the players. Their actions and behaviours are just as important as anything the do on the pitch. We do it every transfer window, or every "sulk" mo has, or last season why trent was so listless and disinterested in the first 3/4 of the season, and so on.

Everyones saying "oh amateur psychologist" when you see trent slowly jog back defensively from having to cover ANOTHER dm who's not good enough, then burst in to life when attacking. Thats my point, thats my logic. He then talks up internationally that he wants to play in mid? That where he sees himself? . You bring that upo here and its "oh i trust klopp, he knows him". But whos to say trent WON'T start to press a claim in midfield when everyone and his dog (outside of LFC) is probably telling him to move there, when he WANTS to play there. This isn't amateur psychology, it's fucking inevitable he'll want to press it.

Klopps has made a rod for his own back by allowing trent to move to double pivot when in possession. He's opening up the right for attack and hoping ibou can cover it, and he's stretching the back line creating space, as trent and Mac aren't good enough to get back in time or have the positional nous to get back and be useful.

Our period of success came with trent at right back, hugging the wing and working with Hendo and Salah. Now he doesn't because Szob is more than creative enough. Mac at the 6 is more than creative enough. We don't need him drifting in to that RDM/RCM space as much. We need him deeper to set off Nunez/Jota/ salah/ Szob/Jones/Whoever

Priorities for the summer should have been RCM (check), DM (in a fashion) and a RB. Trent could still play RB, but we could slowly introduce further forward (where he wants to be), but still utilise him and train up his backup (who ideally was an actual RB)

I understand it was arguably desperation to try and get the team kickstarted again last year that prompted the tactical change. For me, it's just given a longer term headache.

This whole argument frustrates me because it feels like i'm being misrepresented as someone who is like "ooooh, he's wearing green today. He must feel annoyed". Everything i've said has been based in fact since trent broke in. Fantastic going forward, a bit iffy in defence. Arguably he's getting worse defensively. I don't believe thats down to attitude, i believe it's down to he's planning his next move when he gets the ball; a raking beauty of a pass no doubt. But he's forgetting the important part of winning the ball first

Nailed it.

 

[Dreambeliever]

The man says "My specific skill set and what I’m best at is someone who plays in the middle, someone who controls the game, controls the tempo, creates, breaks line, progresses the ball up the pitch" and doesn't name a single defensive attribute, you know he's not got any time for it.

If i named a list of posters who i enjoyed reading, but didn't name Dantes, you wouldn't immediately assume "oh well obviously he likes Dantes" would you?

Ha, another great post!

 

[rubans]

I thought we were also great 21-22. Trent was great then too but he kept attacking, not enough defendinf though.

 

[Fabio]

I thought we were also great 21-22. Trent was great then too but he kept attacking, not enough defendinf though.

Very true

 

[Whaddapie]

Nevermind, I see its pointless to have a discussion, but you continue to watch the game as you do.

Jesus wept, mate... I'm the one TRYING to have the discussion, but you keep deflecting, without actually telling my why you think I'm wrong.

You bring up other players, I discuss them, you say "Oh, what's the point?" and dismiss my response. Do you honestly think that TAA is a better defender than any of those three (top) footballers you named? He's not. Not even close. But he's usually much better going forward. And they are top players, by the way... Its not like you said Djime Traore, FFS.

 

[Hansern]

Jesus wept, mate... I'm the one TRYING to have the discussion, but you keep deflecting, without actually telling my why you think I'm wrong.

You bring up other players, I discuss them, you say "Oh, what's the point?" and dismiss my response. Do you honestly think that TAA is a better defender than any of those three (top) footballers you named? He's not. Not even close. But he's usually much better going forward. And they are top players, by the way... Its not like you said Djime Traore, FFS.

Okay, I’ll try to make this easy for you. You claim he’s not close to any of them defensively, but the stats show otherwise. Trent actually holds his own against all three of them. Thats why I mentioned them.
So your perception of him and the faults you see constantly in his game doesnt really stand out in comparison to the others over a season looking at the defensive stats.

Now, I dont think Trent is a great defender and nor is he perfect in any way and there is loads of room for improvement.

But my point is that he’s a good enough defender to continue in the role he has today.
We can continue to work on his defensive side of the game and then we continue to have abnormal playmaking skills from our RB as well.
Its surprising that people cant see that we’ll be a much worse team without him and that another RB would make the team automatically better because said player might be a better defender.
Our game is based mainly on attacking so to continue that success I think its imparative that we continue to develop Trent in the same role he has now played 300 games in.

 

[Farkmaster]

The reason that I don't like Trent in this new role has more to do with his strengths than his limitations, and it's because while he feels he's doing more, playing more creative, etc because he can see all the play in front of him, I think he's doing far less. If we could get him to vary his play between being deep and central and far wide at times when the space is there, I'd be fine with it.

We keep talking about his defensive issues, but the glaring issue for me is that I think he's a less effective attacker in the role so far, and it means we don't see him put really dangerous crosses in as much. Instead we get lower percentage angled balls, and the same cross field passes we've seen from him regardless of position.

 

[KopRed]

The reason that I don't like Trent in this new role has more to do with his strengths than his limitations, and it's because while he feels he's doing more, playing more creative, etc because he can see all the play in front of him, I think he's doing far less. If we could get him to vary his play between being deep and central and far wide at times when the space is there, I'd be fine with it.

We keep talking about his defensive issues, but the glaring issue for me is that I think he's a less effective attacker in the role so far, and it means we don't see him put really dangerous crosses in as much. Instead we get lower percentage angled balls, and the same cross field passes we've seen from him regardless of position.

He does still play in the same areas though. He does still put crosses in from the right as well. At least according to sky.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-challenge-of-dictating-the-tempo-in-midfield

 

[Whaddapie]

Okay, I’ll try to make this easy for you. You claim he’s not close to any of them defensively, but the stats show otherwise. Trent actually holds his own against all three of them. Thats why I mentioned them.
So your perception of him and the faults you see constantly in his game doesnt really stand out in comparison to the others over a season looking at the defensive stats.

Now, I dont think Trent is a great defender and nor is he perfect in any way and there is loads of room for improvement.

But my point is that he’s a good enough defender to continue in the role he has today.
We can continue to work on his defensive side of the game and then we continue to have abnormal playmaking skills from our RB as well.
Its surprising that people cant see that we’ll be a much worse team without him and that another RB would make the team automatically better because said player might be a better defender.
Our game is based mainly on attacking so to continue that success I think its imperative that we continue to develop Trent in the same role he has now played 300 games in.

I'd genuinely like to actually watch a match with you, mate. It'd be interesting how much we agreed / disagreed upon as we watched the game live.

I don't necessarily disagree that we'd be worse without him, but that doesn't mean that he's not a shite defender... It just means that his attacking prowess is a large part of what we're trying to do out there, and we have to take the bad with the good. THAT, imo, is why Jurgen hasn't been tougher on him about his defensive struggles than he has been... Not because he thinks his attitude is wonderful, but rather because he HAS to stick with him, because of the system we run, the system that he built.

There's a reason he doesn't get a look in at RB for his country and that Southgate is trying to shoehorn him into midfield.

 

[Whaddapie]

Oh, and I wonder how defensive those stats really are..? How many of those various categories are helped / hurt by the vast amount of time he spends playing somewhere across the midfield?

 

[Mystic]

I fucking hate international breaks.

 

[rubans]

I fucking hate international breaks.

Lol, I was thinking the same. If it’s not Salah, it’s Trent. Apparently the North Macedonia pitch has been relayed 6 weeks ago and it’s a bit dodgy. I don’t want Trent turning something or any of other lads on int duty…

 

[binomial]

I fucking hate international breaks.

Would Walker Foden Grealish ACL's after tonight make you feel any differently?

 

[Farkmaster]

He does still play in the same areas though. He does still put crosses in from the right as well. At least according to sky.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-challenge-of-dictating-the-tempo-in-midfield

Everything is deeper. There are fewer moves where he has ended up in the box to finish with a simple cross. There are fewer crosses that are overlapped.

Again, I'm fine with it, but if he can do more damage being wider, we should switch to doing that. The whole point should be flexibility, and having their CBs wondering where the fuck the ball is coming from next, not letting their fullback double and come narrow. When they zig we should zag.

 

[StevieM]

The reason that I don't like Trent in this new role has more to do with his strengths than his limitations, and it's because while he feels he's doing more, playing more creative, etc because he can see all the play in front of him, I think he's doing far less. If we could get him to vary his play between being deep and central and far wide at times when the space is there, I'd be fine with it.

We keep talking about his defensive issues, but the glaring issue for me is that I think he's a less effective attacker in the role so far, and it means we don't see him put really dangerous crosses in as much. Instead we get lower percentage angled balls, and the same cross field passes we've seen from him regardless of position.

Your first paragraph is bang on - it is about Trent variating from deep central to high wide right, but the crucial key figure in this, I think, is Slobbers.

One of either Trent or Slobbers has to hold, while the other has to provide width. The dynamics are good, Slobbers is perfectly capable of drifting out wide, is good at pressing and has a great engine to be able to cover a lot of ground.

For me the issue is more that it’s early days and the two of them, along with Salah, haven’t quite got themselves on the same wavelength - I mean they’re probably ahead of where I thought they’d be in integration at this point and Salah is still banging them in - but it’s not quite as smooth as we need it to be yet.

I think that why Harvey’s had a few good cameo’s - he’s been playing with Salah longer, knows his movement better and provides the runs out wide that Salah needs.

I also think the Trent hybrid role is very much about providing a double pivot in the centre of midfield to give ourselves more solidity there in transition after we lose the ball and to allow the RM to get high up the pitch and press - it likely means it’s harder to play through us centrally.

 

[StevieM]

I'd genuinely like to actually watch a match with you, mate. It'd be interesting how much we agreed / disagreed upon as we watched the game live.

I don't necessarily disagree that we'd be worse without him, but that doesn't mean that he's not a shite defender... It just means that his attacking prowess is a large part of what we're trying to do out there, and we have to take the bad with the good. THAT, imo, is why Jurgen hasn't been tougher on him about his defensive struggles than he has been... Not because he thinks his attitude is wonderful, but rather because he HAS to stick with him, because of the system we run, the system that he built.

There's a reason he doesn't get a look in at RB for his country and that Southgate is trying to shoehorn him into midfield.

Yeah, but you could also argue that England might have won something if they picked Trent at RB more often.

Trent wouldn’t be the first Liverpool player to flourish at club level and not either flourish or be a regular at international level - Barnes, Fowler, McManaman, McMahon to name a few, for example.

 

[rurikbird]

Would Walker Foden Grealish ACL's after tonight make you feel any differently?

No injuries; but Walker, Foden and Lewis all played 97 minutes. Grealish and Trent were both subbed off at 84.

 

[binomial]

No injuries; but Walker, Foden and Lewis all played 97 minutes. Grealish and Trent were both subbed off at 84.

Very merciful from Southgate.

 

[rubans]

I'd genuinely like to actually watch a match with you, mate. It'd be interesting how much we agreed / disagreed upon as we watched the game live.

I don't necessarily disagree that we'd be worse without him, but that doesn't mean that he's not a shite defender... It just means that his attacking prowess is a large part of what we're trying to do out there, and we have to take the bad with the good. THAT, imo, is why Jurgen hasn't been tougher on him about his defensive struggles than he has been... Not because he thinks his attitude is wonderful, but rather because he HAS to stick with him, because of the system we run, the system that he built.

There's a reason he doesn't get a look in at RB for his country and that Southgate is trying to shoehorn him into midfield.

I think the point related to Southgate’s decision not to play him as RB in 5yrs is on him, his own limited skills as a manager. His pragmatism is the reason England have failed to win anything under him despite having the most balanced and talented English squad I can remember and unlikely to win anything with Trippier or a like going foreward. When his England contract is up, there’s not going to be queue of top 6 English clubs waiting for him. Probably United at best?

 

[StevieM]

Added to that - it’s a bonus for us that Southgate is a useful fuck and doesn’t pick Trent, so that he doesn’t come back “Thiagoed” from international duty.