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The Better Team

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Frogfish

Frogfish

Gone to Redcafe
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OK gloves off. There are a surprising number of posters claiming Villa, Citeh, Spurs are better sides than us. Posters who should know better but who are clearly showing signs of being punch drunk.

Would any of you claim those teams could crush RM (even this season's team vs. last season's RM) ? Would any of them beat United 3 times on the trot ? Are any of them capable of playing the brilliant football we showed in the second half of last season ? Any takers ? The only reason anyone is even considering claiming they are better is because we have been hit hard by injuries this season and our confidence has been shaken to the core.

As Villa are next up tonight lets look at a first choice team selection and then face claims as to just who has the better team :

Reina or Friedl = Reina without a doubt although Friedl is more than just a capable GK.
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock has been much improved this season but Aurelio has a better all round game. A tie at best for Villa.
Agger or Davies / Cuellar = Davies I like but I would still take Agger.
Carra or Dunne - again I like Dunne, a reliable performer but over Carra ? No chance. Davies may run him closer.
Johnson or Luke Young = Despite his confidence taking a battering over the last couple of games Johnson is a clear winner.
Aurelio / Riera or Ashley Young or Downing = No contest Young by a mile.
Masherano or Sidwell / NRC = again no contest. Masher is streets ahead of any defensive midfielder they have.
Aquilani or Petrov = We must remember that Lucas is not first choice and once Aquilani finds his feet Lucas will be back on the bench. Petrov is a tidy player but from the glimpses we've already seen in a game and half from Aquilani there is no doubt who the better player is.
Kuyt / Benayoun or Milner = Against Kuyt Milner is better in almost every aspect of his game, and scores plenty too (8 so far this season) but up against Yossi it's a much closer call. Still Milner (on this season's form) just edges it for me.
Gerrard or Agbonlahor = No contest. Gerrard.
Torres or Carew / Heskey = No Contest. Torres.

Was there ever really any question ? How anyone can claim (just half way through the season) that Villa are a better team is beyond me and those posters, hands in pockets, will be looking sheepishly down at their dirty scuffed shoes come the end of the season.

MON has done extremely well to gel a tough to beat team together from a squad of good but, with just the odd exception, not great players. They are punching well above their weight. We have at least 4 world class players in our team and hopefully a case can be made for 2 or 3 more in a season or two.
 
I thought this place had gone bonkers really with all this talk about Villa beeing the better team but you (and Mark elsewhere) have somewhat restored my faith... pheew..

Cheers mate.

Good post too.
 
We are better than Villa but I'm still very very worried about tonight.

And it's not really fair on Petrov to say Aquilani is better. He may well turn out to be, though as of yet he has done nothing. It's like United fans claiming Macheda was better than x y and z last season.

edit: and it doesn't matter what he did in Serie A, he needs to do it here.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=38168.msg1022683#msg1022683 date=1262100693]
We are better than Villa but I'm still very very worried about tonight.

And it's not really fair on Petrov to say Aquilani is better. He may well turn out to be, though as of yet he has done nothing. It's like United fans claiming Macheda was better than x y and z last season.

edit: and it doesn't matter what he did in Serie A, he needs to do it here.
[/quote]

1st para - me too. But not because we are not a better team.

2nd para - not a good comparison. Macheda has done nothing whereas Aquilani is already an established Italy international. Taking everything into consideration then I stand by my opinion.

edit : just seen your edit ! You can't just discount it because he hasn't done it here. On that basis Messi is unproven. Proven ability is a reckonable asset. Aquilani has been recognised by many top players / managers as having indisputable proven talent.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=38168.msg1022683#msg1022683 date=1262100693]
We are better than Villa but I'm still very very worried about tonight.

And it's not really fair on Petrov to say Aquilani is better. He may well turn out to be, though as of yet he has done nothing. It's like United fans claiming Macheda was better than x y and z last season.

edit: and it doesn't matter what he did in Serie A, he needs to do it here.
[/quote]

Agreed, Petrov is a very good proven Premiership midfielder whereas Aquilani is still an unknown entity here.
 
I know it was a shit comparison, I just don't think you can say he's better than Petrov at this stage. He'll probably turn out to be, but not yet.
 
If you compare each player individually then of course we'll probably come out better than most sides in the Prem - at least when a Liverpool supporter is making those comparisons anyways (neutrals will certainly have a different picture of things).

As we've seen time and again this season though, when those individuals take the field with no passion, team spirit or desire and play like a bunch of strangers, all those individual ratings go right out the window.

Teams like Pompey have come up against us as underdogs, but they've played like a team, stuck together and worked hard and got the win.
 
I think the concern is that we are also a better team than Portsmouth, Fulham, Fiorentina Sunderland etc and looked what happened when we played them.

Excluding Man U we have dropped points against every team that sits above us in the league right now, including Birmingham.

That is surely enough to have people doubting our ability to win tonight.
 
keni. Of course team work ethic and that magic ingredient confidence plays a major part in the equation on any given match day. But even the best teams lose.

Fact is the team that finished 2nd just 4 points off the title last season has not become worse than Villa / Spurs / Citeh overnight (and no neither have we dropped so far just because of Xabi's transfer). Injuries and a lack of confidence brought about as a direct consequence of poor performances due to those injuries have blighted our season. But cream will rise and so will we once we get our confidence back.
 
[quote author=the count link=topic=38168.msg1022701#msg1022701 date=1262101247]
I think the concern is that we are also a better team than Portsmouth, Fulham, Fiorentina Sunderland etc and looked what happened when we played them.

Excluding Man U we have dropped points against every team that sits above us in the league right now, including Birmingham.

That is surely enough to have people doubting our ability to win tonight.
[/quote]

Of course. However the question is whether we are a better team ... not what will happen in a one off match tonight where neither side is able to field their strongest team. I'm also more than a little concerned !
 
The main difference is MON gets the best out of his players. Unlike Rafa.
There is still more talent in our squad and over a season we should be ahead of them. Unless Rafa keeps fucking up.
City are our main rivals for 4th spot.
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38168.msg1022708#msg1022708 date=1262101690]
The main difference is MON gets the best out of his players. Unlike Rafa.
There is still more talent in our squad and over a season we should be ahead of them. Unless Rafa keeps fucking up.
City are our main rivals for 4th spot.
[/quote]

I agree with your last sentence. However Rafa was getting plenty out of them in the second half of last season wasn't he ? And we are talking about the best teams in Europe here.
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38168.msg1022708#msg1022708 date=1262101690]
The main difference is MON gets the best out of his players. Unlike Rafa.
There is still more talent in our squad and over a season we should be ahead of them. Unless Rafa keeps fucking up.
City are our main rivals for 4th spot.
[/quote]
Riiiiiight.

Last Season in Spring we absolutely humiliated O'Neills troups at Anfield if I'm not mistaken? 5-0? 5-1 was it?

How do you explain that then?
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022703#msg1022703 date=1262101388]
keni. Of course team work ethic and that magic ingredient confidence plays a major part in the equation on any given match day. But even the best teams lose.

Fact is the team that finished 2nd just 4 points off the title last season has not become worse than Villa / Spurs / Citeh overnight (and no neither have we dropped so far just because of Xabi's transfer). Injuries and a lack of confidence brought about as a direct consequence of poor performances due to those injuries have blighted our season. But cream will rise and so will we once we get our confidence back.
[/quote]

I see what you're saying and of course we all hope you're right, however we've played near enough 30 games this season and have only come up with a handful (if we're being generous) of performances we can be proud of.

In the same way that half a season doesn't yet define a team, this can't just be dismissed as a blip that is solely down to injuries and one or two players losing form.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022673#msg1022673 date=1262100047]
OK gloves off. There are a surprising number of posters claiming Villa, Citeh, Spurs are better sides than us. Posters who should know better but who are clearly showing signs of being punch drunk.

Would any of you claim those teams could crush RM (even this season's team vs. last season's RM) ? Would any of them beat United 3 times on the trot ? Are any of them capable of playing the brilliant football we showed in the second half of last season ? Any takers ? The only reason anyone is even considering claiming they are better is because we have been hit hard by injuries this season and our confidence has been shaken to the core.

As Villa are next up tonight lets look at a first choice team selection and then face claims as to just who has the better team :

Reina or Friedl = Reina without a doubt although Friedl is more than just a capable GK.
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock has been much improved this season but Aurelio has a better all round game. A tie at best for Villa.
Agger or Davies / Cuellar = Davies I like but I would still take Agger.
Carra or Dunne - again I like Dunne, a reliable performer but over Carra ? No chance. Davies may run him closer.
Johnson or Luke Young = Despite his confidence taking a battering over the last couple of games Johnson is a clear winner.
Aurelio / Riera or Ashley Young or Downing = No contest Young by a mile.
Masherano or Sidwell / NRC = again no contest. Masher is streets ahead of any defensive midfielder they have.
Aquilani or Petrov = We must remember that Lucas is not first choice and once Aquilani finds his feet Lucas will be back on the bench. Petrov is a tidy player but from the glimpses we've already seen in a game and half from Aquilani there is no doubt who the better player is.
Kuyt / Benayoun or Milner = Against Kuyt Milner is better in almost every aspect of his game, and scores plenty too (8 so far this season) but up against Yossi it's a much closer call. Still Milner (on this season's form) just edges it for me.
Gerrard or Agbonlahor = No contest. Gerrard.
Torres or Carew / Heskey = No Contest. Torres.

Was there ever really any question ? How anyone can claim (just half way through the season) that Villa are a better team is beyond me and those posters, hands in pockets, will be looking sheepishly down at their dirty scuffed shoes come the end of the season.

MON has done extremely well to gel a tough to beat team together from a squad of good but, with just the odd exception, not great players. They are punching well above their weight. We have at least 4 world class players in our team and hopefully a case can be made for 2 or 3 more in a season or two.
[/quote]

I think you're kidding yourself with the Dunne / Carra comparison based on this seasons form. Likewise the Aquilani (who's done utterly nothing thus far) against Petrov. But the reality is it makes absolutely zero difference.


I don't know of anyone on here who's saying that Villa have better players than what we've got - I have no doubt we have the better players and we've got the wage bill and transfer spending to prove it. But that's not the point; the question is which is the better team?


In 2003 Henchos made the claim that Liverpool could actually match the mancs! Plenty of us made assesments of the players on each team and rattled them off against each other. In almost every case we were bloody close to matching them or beating them player for player. Same is true now - who would you take in Midfield from Mascher and Aquilani vs Carrick and Giggs or whoever it is? Who would you take up front - Gerrard and Torres or Rooney and Scholes or even Rooney and Berbatov? Who would you take as keeper - VDS or Reina? Valencia or Yossi? How do Carra and Agger stack up against Ferdinand and Vidic?


The point is, IMO, obvious. On paper right now we would stack up very well against the mancs - unfortunately there are very few games played on paper. Out on the pitch it becomes a team performance and even on this forum there would be very few posters capable of ludicrous statements suggesting we're a better team than the mancs.

On paper we look light years ahead of Villa but the paper will be forgotten in a few hours and, on the pitch, we seem a little short on performance from a team perspective.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38168.msg1022714#msg1022714 date=1262101861]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38168.msg1022708#msg1022708 date=1262101690]
The main difference is MON gets the best out of his players. Unlike Rafa.
There is still more talent in our squad and over a season we should be ahead of them. Unless Rafa keeps fucking up.
City are our main rivals for 4th spot.
[/quote]
Riiiiiight.

Last Season in Spring we absolutely humiliated O'Neills troups at Anfield if I'm not mistaken? 5-0? 5-1 was it?

How do you explain that then?
[/quote]
Over a season the talent in our squad makes the difference.
MON hasnt a big squad enough and they're always struggling from January on.
Rafa will always fuck up at one moment in the season and thats why he will never the league.
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38168.msg1022724#msg1022724 date=1262102331]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38168.msg1022714#msg1022714 date=1262101861]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38168.msg1022708#msg1022708 date=1262101690]
The main difference is MON gets the best out of his players. Unlike Rafa.
There is still more talent in our squad and over a season we should be ahead of them. Unless Rafa keeps fucking up.
City are our main rivals for 4th spot.
[/quote]
Riiiiiight.

Last Season in Spring we absolutely humiliated O'Neills troups at Anfield if I'm not mistaken? 5-0? 5-1 was it?

How do you explain that then?
[/quote]
Over a season the talent in our squad makes the difference.
MON hasnt a big squad enough and they're always struggling from January on.
Rafa will always fuck up at one moment in the season and thats why he will never the league.
[/quote]

The squad theory is absolutely wrong. Villa actually have a deeper squad (but the first team is not on the same level) than we do with proven PL players such as : Bouma, Downing, Harewood, Shorey in addition to Cuellar, NRC, Carew who are squad players able to fill in where required.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=38168.msg1022721#msg1022721 date=1262102139]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022673#msg1022673 date=1262100047]
OK gloves off. There are a surprising number of posters claiming Villa, Citeh, Spurs are better sides than us. Posters who should know better but who are clearly showing signs of being punch drunk.

Would any of you claim those teams could crush RM (even this season's team vs. last season's RM) ? Would any of them beat United 3 times on the trot ? Are any of them capable of playing the brilliant football we showed in the second half of last season ? Any takers ? The only reason anyone is even considering claiming they are better is because we have been hit hard by injuries this season and our confidence has been shaken to the core.

As Villa are next up tonight lets look at a first choice team selection and then face claims as to just who has the better team :

Reina or Friedl = Reina without a doubt although Friedl is more than just a capable GK.
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock has been much improved this season but Aurelio has a better all round game. A tie at best for Villa.
Agger or Davies / Cuellar = Davies I like but I would still take Agger.
Carra or Dunne - again I like Dunne, a reliable performer but over Carra ? No chance. Davies may run him closer.
Johnson or Luke Young = Despite his confidence taking a battering over the last couple of games Johnson is a clear winner.
Aurelio / Riera or Ashley Young or Downing = No contest Young by a mile.
Masherano or Sidwell / NRC = again no contest. Masher is streets ahead of any defensive midfielder they have.
Aquilani or Petrov = We must remember that Lucas is not first choice and once Aquilani finds his feet Lucas will be back on the bench. Petrov is a tidy player but from the glimpses we've already seen in a game and half from Aquilani there is no doubt who the better player is.
Kuyt / Benayoun or Milner = Against Kuyt Milner is better in almost every aspect of his game, and scores plenty too (8 so far this season) but up against Yossi it's a much closer call. Still Milner (on this season's form) just edges it for me.
Gerrard or Agbonlahor = No contest. Gerrard.
Torres or Carew / Heskey = No Contest. Torres.

Was there ever really any question ? How anyone can claim (just half way through the season) that Villa are a better team is beyond me and those posters, hands in pockets, will be looking sheepishly down at their dirty scuffed shoes come the end of the season.

MON has done extremely well to gel a tough to beat team together from a squad of good but, with just the odd exception, not great players. They are punching well above their weight. We have at least 4 world class players in our team and hopefully a case can be made for 2 or 3 more in a season or two.
[/quote]

I think you're kidding yourself with the Dunne / Carra comparison based on this seasons form. Likewise the Aquilani (who's done utterly nothing thus far) against Petrov. But the reality is it makes absolutely zero difference.


I don't know of anyone on here who's saying that Villa have better players than what we've got - I have no doubt we have the better players and we've got the wage bill and transfer spending to prove it. But that's not the point; the question is which is the better team?


In 2003 Henchos made the claim that Liverpool could actually match the mancs! Plenty of us made assesments of the players on each team and rattled them off against each other. In almost every case we were bloody close to matching them or beating them player for player. Same is true now - who would you take in Midfield from Mascher and Aquilani vs Carrick and Giggs or whoever it is? Who would you take up front - Gerrard and Torres or Rooney and Scholes or even Rooney and Berbatov? Who would you take as keeper - VDS or Reina? Valencia or Yossi? How do Carra and Agger stack up against Ferdinand and Vidic?


The point is, IMO, obvious. On paper right now we would stack up very well against the mancs - unfortunately there are very few games played on paper. Out on the pitch it becomes a team performance and even on this forum there would be very few posters capable of ludicrous statements suggesting we're a better team than the mancs.

On paper we look light years ahead of Villa but the paper will be forgotten in a few hours and, on the pitch, we seem a little short on performance from a team perspective.
[/quote]

+1.

Great post.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022673#msg1022673 date=1262100047]
OK gloves off. There are a surprising number of posters claiming Villa, Citeh, Spurs are better sides than us. Posters who should know better but who are clearly showing signs of being punch drunk.

Would any of you claim those teams could crush RM (even this season's team vs. last season's RM) ? Would any of them beat United 3 times on the trot ? Are any of them capable of playing the brilliant football we showed in the second half of last season ? Any takers ? The only reason anyone is even considering claiming they are better is because we have been hit hard by injuries this season and our confidence has been shaken to the core.

As Villa are next up tonight lets look at a first choice team selection and then face claims as to just who has the better team :

Reina or Friedl = Reina without a doubt although Friedl is more than just a capable GK.
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock has been much improved this season but Aurelio has a better all round game. A tie at best for Villa.
Agger or Davies / Cuellar = Davies I like but I would still take Agger.
Carra or Dunne - again I like Dunne, a reliable performer but over Carra ? No chance. Davies may run him closer.
Johnson or Luke Young = Despite his confidence taking a battering over the last couple of games Johnson is a clear winner.
Aurelio / Riera or Ashley Young or Downing = No contest Young by a mile.
Masherano or Sidwell / NRC = again no contest. Masher is streets ahead of any defensive midfielder they have.
Aquilani or Petrov = We must remember that Lucas is not first choice and once Aquilani finds his feet Lucas will be back on the bench. Petrov is a tidy player but from the glimpses we've already seen in a game and half from Aquilani there is no doubt who the better player is.
Kuyt / Benayoun or Milner = Against Kuyt Milner is better in almost every aspect of his game, and scores plenty too (8 so far this season) but up against Yossi it's a much closer call. Still Milner (on this season's form) just edges it for me.
Gerrard or Agbonlahor = No contest. Gerrard.
Torres or Carew / Heskey = No Contest. Torres.

Was there ever really any question ? How anyone can claim (just half way through the season) that Villa are a better team is beyond me and those posters, hands in pockets, will be looking sheepishly down at their dirty scuffed shoes come the end of the season.

MON has done extremely well to gel a tough to beat team together from a squad of good but, with just the odd exception, not great players. They are punching well above their weight. We have at least 4 world class players in our team and hopefully a case can be made for 2 or 3 more in a season or two.
[/quote]

Jesus, Froggie...

Richard Dunne pisses on either of our CBs this season - It's not even close.

Mascher isn't playing tonight, so...

"Lucas ISN'T first choice..?!? Excuse me?

Petrov is a proven premisership calibre player - Aquilani has played 1.5 games for us.

I agree that we're a better team than they are, but a) they're playing better than we are so far this season, b) AC Milan were a better team than us in 2005 too - The better team doesn't always beat a team that has more heart and self-belief, and c) a few of the comparrisons that you make above are FAR closer than you claim.
 
Your midfield match-ups need a bit of adjusting and I can’t agree that your back 5 are all better than all of ours.

Reina or Friedl = Reina

Johnson or Luke Young = Johnson
Agger or Davies = Agger (just)
Carragher or Dunne = Dunne
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock

Aurelio / Riera or Young = Young
Petrov or Mascherano = Mascherano
Aquilani or Milner = Milner
Kuyt/Benayoun or Downing = Downing

Gerrard or Agbonlahor = Gerrard
Torres or Carew / Heskey = Torres

It’s pretty close imo until you consider just how much stronger Gerrard and Torres are compared to Agbonlahor and Carew/Heskey.
 
Keni - I don't put it down to a 'blip' per se. More a major confidence issue that has affected all of our players. A few wins and a return of last season's confidence levels and the players will then have the belief to go out and prove their superiority.

Wiz. Aquilani - I've explained my POW on that and I will stick to it. Just because a player hasn't demonstrated his ability in the PL doesn't mean we can't rate him highly.

As for the rest of your post, well I can refer you to my answer to Keni above. I don't think it is a 'team' issue per se (and in fact as you say we stack up very well against most other teams) as we showed last season and there has hardly been a major turnover in personnel. No, it is a confidence issue which in turn destroys the 'team' ethic. I am confident we will get back to a long unbeaten winning run once that confidence returns.
 
[quote author=claretandblue link=topic=38168.msg1022746#msg1022746 date=1262103399]
Your midfield match-ups need a bit of adjusting and I can’t agree that your back 5 are all better than all of ours.

Reina or Friedl = Reina

Johnson or Luke Young = Johnson
Agger or Davies = Agger (just)
Carragher or Dunne = Dunne
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock

Aurelio / Riera or Young = Young
Petrov or Mascherano = Mascherano
Aquilani or Milner = Milner
Kuyt/Benayoun or Downing = Downing

Gerrard or Agbonlahor = Gerrard
Torres or Carew / Heskey = Torres

It’s pretty close imo until you consider just how much stronger Gerrard and Torres are compared to Agbonlahor and Carew/Heskey.

[/quote]

Yep. If you're comparing form this season, position for position and how MoN is actually lining Villa up then this is a more fairer comparison. The only one above I don't agree with is Downing over Benayoun. If we were talking LW, then yeah. For RW, Benayoun is better.

Milner seems to have turned into a top quality player this year and beats Aquilani by default.
 
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=38168.msg1022741#msg1022741 date=1262103216]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022673#msg1022673 date=1262100047]
OK gloves off. There are a surprising number of posters claiming Villa, Citeh, Spurs are better sides than us. Posters who should know better but who are clearly showing signs of being punch drunk.

Would any of you claim those teams could crush RM (even this season's team vs. last season's RM) ? Would any of them beat United 3 times on the trot ? Are any of them capable of playing the brilliant football we showed in the second half of last season ? Any takers ? The only reason anyone is even considering claiming they are better is because we have been hit hard by injuries this season and our confidence has been shaken to the core.

As Villa are next up tonight lets look at a first choice team selection and then face claims as to just who has the better team :

Reina or Friedl = Reina without a doubt although Friedl is more than just a capable GK.
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock has been much improved this season but Aurelio has a better all round game. A tie at best for Villa.
Agger or Davies / Cuellar = Davies I like but I would still take Agger.
Carra or Dunne - again I like Dunne, a reliable performer but over Carra ? No chance. Davies may run him closer.
Johnson or Luke Young = Despite his confidence taking a battering over the last couple of games Johnson is a clear winner.
Aurelio / Riera or Ashley Young or Downing = No contest Young by a mile.
Masherano or Sidwell / NRC = again no contest. Masher is streets ahead of any defensive midfielder they have.
Aquilani or Petrov = We must remember that Lucas is not first choice and once Aquilani finds his feet Lucas will be back on the bench. Petrov is a tidy player but from the glimpses we've already seen in a game and half from Aquilani there is no doubt who the better player is.
Kuyt / Benayoun or Milner = Against Kuyt Milner is better in almost every aspect of his game, and scores plenty too (8 so far this season) but up against Yossi it's a much closer call. Still Milner (on this season's form) just edges it for me.
Gerrard or Agbonlahor = No contest. Gerrard.
Torres or Carew / Heskey = No Contest. Torres.

Was there ever really any question ? How anyone can claim (just half way through the season) that Villa are a better team is beyond me and those posters, hands in pockets, will be looking sheepishly down at their dirty scuffed shoes come the end of the season.

MON has done extremely well to gel a tough to beat team together from a squad of good but, with just the odd exception, not great players. They are punching well above their weight. We have at least 4 world class players in our team and hopefully a case can be made for 2 or 3 more in a season or two.
[/quote]

Jesus, Froggie...

Richard Dunne pisses on either of our CBs this season - It's not even close. He has. But this is a choice for a season not a one off. Give me Carra / Agger over a whole season.

Mascher isn't playing tonight, so... The team selections are not about tonight (A. Young and Cuellar are also out for them for example)

"Lucas ISN'T first choice..?!? Excuse me? He isn't. He is filling in for Aquilani. Come on ! You KNOW that.

Petrov is a proven premisership calibre player - Aquilani has played 1.5 games for us. Answered many times already. You can't discount his Serie A status. If Messi played for us would you also say he isn't better than Petrov simply because he had only played 1.5 games ? Obviously not so why do people insist on saying that about Aquilani - it's not like he's a 20 year old with no history.

I agree that we're a better team than they are, but a) they're playing better than we are so far this season, b) AC Milan were a better team than us in 2005 too - The better team doesn't always beat a team that has more heart and self-belief, and c) a few of the comparrisons that you make above are FAR closer than you claim.

Most of what you say I have already stated too. Closer or not I don't think that the final analysis in the vast majority of comparisons is that disputable.

[/quote]

Ouch Whaddapie - you do actually have to READ my posts mate if you are going to piss on me ! See above.
 
Whats Downing done for Villa so far this season? Hasn't he been injured?

*Prays i don't regret that later on tonight*
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022755#msg1022755 date=1262104103]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=38168.msg1022741#msg1022741 date=1262103216]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022673#msg1022673 date=1262100047]
OK gloves off. There are a surprising number of posters claiming Villa, Citeh, Spurs are better sides than us. Posters who should know better but who are clearly showing signs of being punch drunk.

Would any of you claim those teams could crush RM (even this season's team vs. last season's RM) ? Would any of them beat United 3 times on the trot ? Are any of them capable of playing the brilliant football we showed in the second half of last season ? Any takers ? The only reason anyone is even considering claiming they are better is because we have been hit hard by injuries this season and our confidence has been shaken to the core.

As Villa are next up tonight lets look at a first choice team selection and then face claims as to just who has the better team :

Reina or Friedl = Reina without a doubt although Friedl is more than just a capable GK.
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock has been much improved this season but Aurelio has a better all round game. A tie at best for Villa.
Agger or Davies / Cuellar = Davies I like but I would still take Agger.
Carra or Dunne - again I like Dunne, a reliable performer but over Carra ? No chance. Davies may run him closer.
Johnson or Luke Young = Despite his confidence taking a battering over the last couple of games Johnson is a clear winner.
Aurelio / Riera or Ashley Young or Downing = No contest Young by a mile.
Masherano or Sidwell / NRC = again no contest. Masher is streets ahead of any defensive midfielder they have.
Aquilani or Petrov = We must remember that Lucas is not first choice and once Aquilani finds his feet Lucas will be back on the bench. Petrov is a tidy player but from the glimpses we've already seen in a game and half from Aquilani there is no doubt who the better player is.
Kuyt / Benayoun or Milner = Against Kuyt Milner is better in almost every aspect of his game, and scores plenty too (8 so far this season) but up against Yossi it's a much closer call. Still Milner (on this season's form) just edges it for me.
Gerrard or Agbonlahor = No contest. Gerrard.
Torres or Carew / Heskey = No Contest. Torres.

Was there ever really any question ? How anyone can claim (just half way through the season) that Villa are a better team is beyond me and those posters, hands in pockets, will be looking sheepishly down at their dirty scuffed shoes come the end of the season.

MON has done extremely well to gel a tough to beat team together from a squad of good but, with just the odd exception, not great players. They are punching well above their weight. We have at least 4 world class players in our team and hopefully a case can be made for 2 or 3 more in a season or two.
[/quote]

Jesus, Froggie...

Richard Dunne pisses on either of our CBs this season - It's not even close. He has. But this is a choice for a season not a one off. Give me Carra / Agger over a whole season. Yes, mate. THIS season. And THIS season, Dunne's been better than any of our three CB's.

Mascher isn't playing tonight, so... The team selections are not about tonight (A. Young and Cuellar are also out for them for example) Ok. Fair enough.

"Lucas ISN'T first choice..?!? Excuse me? He isn't. He is filling in for Aquilani. Come on ! You KNOW that. Problem is, I DON'T know that, mate. Rafa has shown NOTHING to suggest Lucas won't be a regular starter throughout the season.

Petrov is a proven premisership calibre player - Aquilani has played 1.5 games for us. Answered many times already. You can't discount his Serie A status. If Messi played for us would you also say he isn't better than Petrov simply because he had only played 1.5 games ? Obviously not so why do people insist on saying that about Aquilani - it's not like he's a 20 year old with no history. Fair, to a point. But Morientes was a proven player too, who couldn't cut it here... I'm not putting Aquaman over anybody proven, until he's shown us he can do it.

I agree that we're a better team than they are, but a) they're playing better than we are so far this season, b) AC Milan were a better team than us in 2005 too - The better team doesn't always beat a team that has more heart and self-belief, and c) a few of the comparrisons that you make above are FAR closer than you claim.

Most of what you say I have already stated too. Closer or not I don't think that the final analysis in the cast majority of comparisons is that disputable.

[/quote]

Ouch Whaddapie - you do actually have to READ my posts mate if you are going to piss on me ! See above.
[/quote]

Hardly pissed on you, mate. Just disagreed.
 
[quote author=claretandblue link=topic=38168.msg1022746#msg1022746 date=1262103399]
Your midfield match-ups need a bit of adjusting and I can’t agree that your back 5 are all better than all of ours.

Reina or Friedl = Reina

Johnson or Luke Young = Johnson
Agger or Davies = Agger (just)
Carragher or Dunne = Dunne
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock

Aurelio / Riera or Young = Young
Petrov or Mascherano = Mascherano
Aquilani or Milner = Milner
Kuyt/Benayoun or Downing = Downing

Gerrard or Agbonlahor = Gerrard
Torres or Carew / Heskey = Torres

It’s pretty close imo until you consider just how much stronger Gerrard and Torres are compared to Agbonlahor and Carew/Heskey.

[/quote]

Milner - OK you are right he's been played in CM more than as a winger this season. But on the basis of including non-PL history I couldn't put Milner ahead of him even though I understand he's been one of your better players so far this season. Of course if you were just selecting a team for tonight then no contest - Milner.

Dunne - a few here agree with you, and if we were only selecting a team over the first half of the season then I would too. But I think Carra will get back to season's form and that's what I'd take over Dunne for the full 2009/10 season. May not happen of course.

Warnock is much improved but I still wouldn't take him over Aurelio who adds much more when he goes forward in the way of crosses & retaining possession.
 
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=38168.msg1022762#msg1022762 date=1262104476]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022755#msg1022755 date=1262104103]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=38168.msg1022741#msg1022741 date=1262103216]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=38168.msg1022673#msg1022673 date=1262100047]
OK gloves off. There are a surprising number of posters claiming Villa, Citeh, Spurs are better sides than us. Posters who should know better but who are clearly showing signs of being punch drunk.

Would any of you claim those teams could crush RM (even this season's team vs. last season's RM) ? Would any of them beat United 3 times on the trot ? Are any of them capable of playing the brilliant football we showed in the second half of last season ? Any takers ? The only reason anyone is even considering claiming they are better is because we have been hit hard by injuries this season and our confidence has been shaken to the core.

As Villa are next up tonight lets look at a first choice team selection and then face claims as to just who has the better team :

Reina or Friedl = Reina without a doubt although Friedl is more than just a capable GK.
Warnock or Insua / Aurelio = Warnock has been much improved this season but Aurelio has a better all round game. A tie at best for Villa.
Agger or Davies / Cuellar = Davies I like but I would still take Agger.
Carra or Dunne - again I like Dunne, a reliable performer but over Carra ? No chance. Davies may run him closer.
Johnson or Luke Young = Despite his confidence taking a battering over the last couple of games Johnson is a clear winner.
Aurelio / Riera or Ashley Young or Downing = No contest Young by a mile.
Masherano or Sidwell / NRC = again no contest. Masher is streets ahead of any defensive midfielder they have.
Aquilani or Petrov = We must remember that Lucas is not first choice and once Aquilani finds his feet Lucas will be back on the bench. Petrov is a tidy player but from the glimpses we've already seen in a game and half from Aquilani there is no doubt who the better player is.
Kuyt / Benayoun or Milner = Against Kuyt Milner is better in almost every aspect of his game, and scores plenty too (8 so far this season) but up against Yossi it's a much closer call. Still Milner (on this season's form) just edges it for me.
Gerrard or Agbonlahor = No contest. Gerrard.
Torres or Carew / Heskey = No Contest. Torres.

Was there ever really any question ? How anyone can claim (just half way through the season) that Villa are a better team is beyond me and those posters, hands in pockets, will be looking sheepishly down at their dirty scuffed shoes come the end of the season.

MON has done extremely well to gel a tough to beat team together from a squad of good but, with just the odd exception, not great players. They are punching well above their weight. We have at least 4 world class players in our team and hopefully a case can be made for 2 or 3 more in a season or two.
[/quote]

Jesus, Froggie...

Richard Dunne pisses on either of our CBs this season - It's not even close. He has. But this is a choice for a season not a one off. Give me Carra / Agger over a whole season. Yes, mate. THIS season. And THIS season, Dunne's been better than any of our three CB's.

Mascher isn't playing tonight, so... The team selections are not about tonight (A. Young and Cuellar are also out for them for example) Ok. Fair enough.

"Lucas ISN'T first choice..?!? Excuse me? He isn't. He is filling in for Aquilani. Come on ! You KNOW that. Problem is, I DON'T know that, mate. Rafa has shown NOTHING to suggest Lucas won't be a regular starter throughout the season.

Petrov is a proven premisership calibre player - Aquilani has played 1.5 games for us. Answered many times already. You can't discount his Serie A status. If Messi played for us would you also say he isn't better than Petrov simply because he had only played 1.5 games ? Obviously not so why do people insist on saying that about Aquilani - it's not like he's a 20 year old with no history. Fair, to a point. But Morientes was a proven player too, who couldn't cut it here... I'm not putting Aquaman over anybody proven, until he's shown us he can do it.

I agree that we're a better team than they are, but a) they're playing better than we are so far this season, b) AC Milan were a better team than us in 2005 too - The better team doesn't always beat a team that has more heart and self-belief, and c) a few of the comparrisons that you make above are FAR closer than you claim.

Most of what you say I have already stated too. Closer or not I don't think that the final analysis in the cast majority of comparisons is that disputable.

[/quote]

Ouch Whaddapie - you do actually have to READ my posts mate if you are going to piss on me ! See above.
[/quote]

Hardly pissed on you, mate. Just disagreed.
[/quote]

I meant pissed on in a *nice* way (wonders how it could be nice - no, no, no don't go there) !

Fair enough - most are just differences in opinion. I sure as hell hope I'm right and you are wrong re. Lucas though !
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38168.msg1022760#msg1022760 date=1262104338]
Let's wait for the match to end before we decide if we're better than Villa, Froggy.
[/quote]

I'm not on about a one off match tonight Avey. I've just become a bit miffed with all this talk of Villa being a better team than us (as if injuries and the ensuing loss of confidence have nothing to do with it) and MON being a better manager.
 
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