So... will Aquilani transform our season?
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[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=37804.msg1010557#msg1010557 date=1260398194]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010537#msg1010537 date=1260397561]
Can somevody (whose opinion I respect preferably) give me an overview of what he was like tonight.
Cheers.
[/quote]
Not sure if you respect my opinion but here it is: he played for approx 75 mins. Started fading around the hour mark. Made a lot of successful , mostly one touch passes. got in the box a lot in first half of first half but got on the end of nothing, mainly cos there was nothing to get on the end of. Looked comfortable on the ball and never panicked when closed down. Not enough movement from his teamates to see his full passing range. Made a number of successful fancy flicks but one unsuccessful one that nearly ended with Fiorentina winning a penalty, and will not have pleased Rafa ( the unsuccessful one I mean). Overall I would give him a 6.5
[/quote]I would agree with that but add that every single pass he made was forwards, he never once looked to take a backwards step, and his two best passes of the game were both in the last five minutes of his involvement.
Ryan the best thing tonight was Gerrards set piece delivery. All night whipped and dangerous we should have had 2 more goals from it.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010537#msg1010537 date=1260397561]
Can somevody (whose opinion I respect preferably) give me an overview of what he was like tonight.
Cheers.
[/quote]
Not sure if you respect my opinion but here it is: he played for approx 75 mins. Started fading around the hour mark. Made a lot of successful , mostly one touch passes. got in the box a lot in first half of first half but got on the end of nothing, mainly cos there was nothing to get on the end of. Looked comfortable on the ball and never panicked when closed down. Not enough movement from his teamates to see his full passing range. Made a number of successful fancy flicks but one unsuccessful one that nearly ended with Fiorentina winning a penalty, and will not have pleased Rafa ( the unsuccessful one I mean). Overall I would give him a 6.5
[/quote]I would agree with that but add that every single pass he made was forwards, he never once looked to take a backwards step, and his two best passes of the game were both in the last five minutes of his involvement.
Ryan the best thing tonight was Gerrards set piece delivery. All night whipped and dangerous we should have had 2 more goals from it.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37804.msg1010480#msg1010480 date=1260395943]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37804.msg1010470#msg1010470 date=1260395780]
torres must be relieved he moved from AM, a team that was way too relient on him...
oh.
[/quote]
I've been thinking the same thing all season. Bit depressing really.
I think I've mentioned it a few times but I remember the look on his face after A.Madrid got absolutely fucking battered by Barca... I hope I never see it here at Liverpool.
[/quote]
It wasn't a battering tonight but, as I posted in the match thread, I reckon that look was on his face as he walked off tonight.
Utterly beaten and enraged at the same time.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37804.msg1010470#msg1010470 date=1260395780]
torres must be relieved he moved from AM, a team that was way too relient on him...
oh.
[/quote]
I've been thinking the same thing all season. Bit depressing really.
I think I've mentioned it a few times but I remember the look on his face after A.Madrid got absolutely fucking battered by Barca... I hope I never see it here at Liverpool.
[/quote]
It wasn't a battering tonight but, as I posted in the match thread, I reckon that look was on his face as he walked off tonight.
Utterly beaten and enraged at the same time.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37804.msg1010488#msg1010488 date=1260396117]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37804.msg1010480#msg1010480 date=1260395943]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37804.msg1010470#msg1010470 date=1260395780]
torres must be relieved he moved from AM, a team that was way too relient on him...
oh.
[/quote]
I've been thinking the same thing all season. Bit depressing really.
I think I've mentioned it a few times but I remember the look on his face after A.Madrid got absolutely fucking battered by Barca... I hope I never see it here at Liverpool.
[/quote]
at AM he was the star along with maxi rodriguez, just replace maxi with gerrard and its the same thing all over again.
[/quote]
That would probably work Spider............................ if we were playing in Italy.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37804.msg1010480#msg1010480 date=1260395943]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37804.msg1010470#msg1010470 date=1260395780]
torres must be relieved he moved from AM, a team that was way too relient on him...
oh.
[/quote]
I've been thinking the same thing all season. Bit depressing really.
I think I've mentioned it a few times but I remember the look on his face after A.Madrid got absolutely fucking battered by Barca... I hope I never see it here at Liverpool.
[/quote]
at AM he was the star along with maxi rodriguez, just replace maxi with gerrard and its the same thing all over again.
[/quote]
That would probably work Spider............................ if we were playing in Italy.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010577#msg1010577 date=1260398935]
Sooo... What I'm reading thus far is that he's not fit, wasn't spectacular, isn't very discipplined, roams about too much for a central midfielder, and should have been dragged after an hour. But he had some nice touches?
That about right?
[/quote]
Bit harsh....
he's played 70 minutes in 6 months in two different teams in two different leagues.... vis a vis its too early to say anything about him really.
I did notice he does see the passes well.... thats encouraging.... all we need is for the team to have some genuine goal threat and not to leak goals automatically after 88 minutes and we might be OK
Sooo... What I'm reading thus far is that he's not fit, wasn't spectacular, isn't very discipplined, roams about too much for a central midfielder, and should have been dragged after an hour. But he had some nice touches?
That about right?
[/quote]
Bit harsh....
he's played 70 minutes in 6 months in two different teams in two different leagues.... vis a vis its too early to say anything about him really.
I did notice he does see the passes well.... thats encouraging.... all we need is for the team to have some genuine goal threat and not to leak goals automatically after 88 minutes and we might be OK
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010577#msg1010577 date=1260398935]
Sooo... What I'm reading thus far is that he's not fit, wasn't spectacular, isn't very discipplined, roams about too much for a central midfielder, and should have been dragged after an hour. But he had some nice touches?
That about right?
[/quote]Oh are you just wanting to hate him? Yeah then that's right for that agenda for sure.
Sooo... What I'm reading thus far is that he's not fit, wasn't spectacular, isn't very discipplined, roams about too much for a central midfielder, and should have been dragged after an hour. But he had some nice touches?
That about right?
[/quote]Oh are you just wanting to hate him? Yeah then that's right for that agenda for sure.
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
I think he had a good game, considering it was his first start.
His passing was excellent, movement, touch and vision were good. You could see that this was his first competitve game for quite a while though, but the signs are there. He's a fantastic player. His final touch out to Torres, a 40 yard one touch pass was worth the money I paid for the stream alone..
The crap about him not being tactically smart is bollocks. He's played in the exact same position for Roma, with huge success, so that is a no go.
He's got a bit of drive in him when he has the ball, always keeps it cool and doesn't panic. Shame his teammates wheren't up to it tonight, because there was a lot of potential attacks that went south due to poor control and touches.
Kuyt was fucking horrible tonight. 473 offsides and not 1 shot at goal. How the fuck can you be offside twice from a goal kick??!! Cisse had a better understanding of the offside rule ffs.
His passing was excellent, movement, touch and vision were good. You could see that this was his first competitve game for quite a while though, but the signs are there. He's a fantastic player. His final touch out to Torres, a 40 yard one touch pass was worth the money I paid for the stream alone..
The crap about him not being tactically smart is bollocks. He's played in the exact same position for Roma, with huge success, so that is a no go.
He's got a bit of drive in him when he has the ball, always keeps it cool and doesn't panic. Shame his teammates wheren't up to it tonight, because there was a lot of potential attacks that went south due to poor control and touches.
Kuyt was fucking horrible tonight. 473 offsides and not 1 shot at goal. How the fuck can you be offside twice from a goal kick??!! Cisse had a better understanding of the offside rule ffs.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
Albeit a performance of just over an hour, but he oozed class, all round passing seemed of a high standard and accurate, he had some lovely moments of skill, backheels etc. Charging runs into the box trying to get on crosses. His cutting passes made me very happy, something Lucas does not offer every game, apart from Newcastle last season i dont remember Lucas pulling off any other great assists. I dont want to quickly apply pressure to Alberto but he looked like a massive improvement on Lucas.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010577#msg1010577 date=1260398935]
Sooo... What I'm reading thus far is that he's not fit, wasn't spectacular, isn't very discipplined, roams about too much for a central midfielder, and should have been dragged after an hour. But he had some nice touches?
That about right?
[/quote]
I think the wording is about right but the impression is a little wrong.
He wasn't spectacular but not underperforming for someone with a few months out.
He's certainly more free spirited than I'd have thought of a Rafa purchase but then he's not as free as Stevie was when Rafa first arrived. I think we need that free spirit a little - we're too predictable anyway as we all know so this would be a help.
I must say that, while he may be tentative due to the injury, I do think he's going to struggle a little with the physical side; either that or Mascher and Gerrard will have to compensate significantly.
Sooo... What I'm reading thus far is that he's not fit, wasn't spectacular, isn't very discipplined, roams about too much for a central midfielder, and should have been dragged after an hour. But he had some nice touches?
That about right?
[/quote]
I think the wording is about right but the impression is a little wrong.
He wasn't spectacular but not underperforming for someone with a few months out.
He's certainly more free spirited than I'd have thought of a Rafa purchase but then he's not as free as Stevie was when Rafa first arrived. I think we need that free spirit a little - we're too predictable anyway as we all know so this would be a help.
I must say that, while he may be tentative due to the injury, I do think he's going to struggle a little with the physical side; either that or Mascher and Gerrard will have to compensate significantly.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37804.msg1010596#msg1010596 date=1260399980]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
[/quote]
Sounds like a typical debut performance really. Anybody who expected anything more (especially from a central midfielder) is fooling themselves. I remember Roy Keane's first 10-15 games for United, and he was all over the place; ill-disciplined, dropping into the same areas as his midfield partner, tracking the wrong runners, if anything - trying too hard. Nigel fucking Quashie was preffered to Mascherano at West Ham, because Masher hadn't adapted at all to life in the Premier Legaue.
It takes foreigners time to adjust to the pace, a new team, their teammates roles, and what's expected of them. In fact, I'd say central midfield is probably the most difficult place to step into a new side in a different league. There are just far too many demands mate of midfielders these days, and if you've played what, 30 fucking minutes in 6 months? Then to expect him to be a marked improvement on what you already have in that position (regardless of Lucas/Mascherano's ability or inability) isn't realistic in my opinion.
He'll be a sub for many many games of this season, and rightly so in my opinion. As he's just not ready.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
[/quote]
Sounds like a typical debut performance really. Anybody who expected anything more (especially from a central midfielder) is fooling themselves. I remember Roy Keane's first 10-15 games for United, and he was all over the place; ill-disciplined, dropping into the same areas as his midfield partner, tracking the wrong runners, if anything - trying too hard. Nigel fucking Quashie was preffered to Mascherano at West Ham, because Masher hadn't adapted at all to life in the Premier Legaue.
It takes foreigners time to adjust to the pace, a new team, their teammates roles, and what's expected of them. In fact, I'd say central midfield is probably the most difficult place to step into a new side in a different league. There are just far too many demands mate of midfielders these days, and if you've played what, 30 fucking minutes in 6 months? Then to expect him to be a marked improvement on what you already have in that position (regardless of Lucas/Mascherano's ability or inability) isn't realistic in my opinion.
He'll be a sub for many many games of this season, and rightly so in my opinion. As he's just not ready.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010605#msg1010605 date=1260400423]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37804.msg1010596#msg1010596 date=1260399980]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
[/quote]
Sounds like a typical debut performance really. Anybody who expected anything more (especially from a central midfielder) is fooling themselves. I remember Roy Keane's first 10-15 games for United, and he was all over the place; ill-disciplined, dropping into the same areas as his midfield partner, tracking the wrong runners, if anything - trying too hard. Nigel fucking Quashie was preffered to Mascherano at West Ham, because Masher hadn't adapted at all to life in the Premier Legaue.
It takes foreigners time to adjust to the pace, a new team, their teammates roles, and what's expected of them. In fact, I'd say central midfield is probably the most difficult place to step into a new side in a different league. There are just far too many demands mate of midfielders these days, and if you've played what, 30 fucking minutes in 6 months? Then to expect him to be a marked improvement on what you already have in that position (regardless of Lucas/Mascherano's ability or inability) isn't realistic in my opinion.
He'll be a sub for many many games of this season, and rightly so in my opinion. As he's just not ready.
[/quote]
Any chance he'd have been ready a little sooner if he'd been given time in a few matches a bit sooner in the season? Or did he have to play 75minutes against an Italian team before anything else?
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37804.msg1010596#msg1010596 date=1260399980]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
[/quote]
Sounds like a typical debut performance really. Anybody who expected anything more (especially from a central midfielder) is fooling themselves. I remember Roy Keane's first 10-15 games for United, and he was all over the place; ill-disciplined, dropping into the same areas as his midfield partner, tracking the wrong runners, if anything - trying too hard. Nigel fucking Quashie was preffered to Mascherano at West Ham, because Masher hadn't adapted at all to life in the Premier Legaue.
It takes foreigners time to adjust to the pace, a new team, their teammates roles, and what's expected of them. In fact, I'd say central midfield is probably the most difficult place to step into a new side in a different league. There are just far too many demands mate of midfielders these days, and if you've played what, 30 fucking minutes in 6 months? Then to expect him to be a marked improvement on what you already have in that position (regardless of Lucas/Mascherano's ability or inability) isn't realistic in my opinion.
He'll be a sub for many many games of this season, and rightly so in my opinion. As he's just not ready.
[/quote]
Any chance he'd have been ready a little sooner if he'd been given time in a few matches a bit sooner in the season? Or did he have to play 75minutes against an Italian team before anything else?
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37804.msg1010608#msg1010608 date=1260400650]
Any chance he'd have been ready a little sooner if he'd been given time in a few matches a bit sooner in the season? Or did he have to play 75minutes against an Italian team before anything else?
[/quote]
Yea, I think Ryan is overcomplicating this a bit.
His point that we don't have all the information is sensible, as is querying that the blind assertion that we'd have won games if he had played.
But we've failed to perform in game after game after game. What have we really had to lose? We've learned nothing new and gained nothing in defeat. No different pothibilities.
Any chance he'd have been ready a little sooner if he'd been given time in a few matches a bit sooner in the season? Or did he have to play 75minutes against an Italian team before anything else?
[/quote]
Yea, I think Ryan is overcomplicating this a bit.
His point that we don't have all the information is sensible, as is querying that the blind assertion that we'd have won games if he had played.
But we've failed to perform in game after game after game. What have we really had to lose? We've learned nothing new and gained nothing in defeat. No different pothibilities.
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37804.msg1010608#msg1010608 date=1260400650]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010605#msg1010605 date=1260400423]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37804.msg1010596#msg1010596 date=1260399980]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
[/quote]
Sounds like a typical debut performance really. Anybody who expected anything more (especially from a central midfielder) is fooling themselves. I remember Roy Keane's first 10-15 games for United, and he was all over the place; ill-disciplined, dropping into the same areas as his midfield partner, tracking the wrong runners, if anything - trying too hard. Nigel fucking Quashie was preffered to Mascherano at West Ham, because Masher hadn't adapted at all to life in the Premier Legaue.
It takes foreigners time to adjust to the pace, a new team, their teammates roles, and what's expected of them. In fact, I'd say central midfield is probably the most difficult place to step into a new side in a different league. There are just far too many demands mate of midfielders these days, and if you've played what, 30 fucking minutes in 6 months? Then to expect him to be a marked improvement on what you already have in that position (regardless of Lucas/Mascherano's ability or inability) isn't realistic in my opinion.
He'll be a sub for many many games of this season, and rightly so in my opinion. As he's just not ready.
[/quote]
Any chance he'd have been ready a little sooner if he'd been given time in a few matches a bit sooner in the season? Or did he have to play 75minutes against an Italian team before anything else?
[/quote]
Well I dunno really mate. Rafa and the staff see him every day, and I guess they've made the judgement on him based on that. I think he's been unfortunate too. We'd definitely have seen him against Man City were we not forced to make two subs in the first 30 minutes for example. In other games I think Rafa's made the right substitutions.
I don't think he's ready to start games to be honest, but I do think we'll see a lot more of him off the bench in the coming weeks.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010605#msg1010605 date=1260400423]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37804.msg1010596#msg1010596 date=1260399980]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
[/quote]
Sounds like a typical debut performance really. Anybody who expected anything more (especially from a central midfielder) is fooling themselves. I remember Roy Keane's first 10-15 games for United, and he was all over the place; ill-disciplined, dropping into the same areas as his midfield partner, tracking the wrong runners, if anything - trying too hard. Nigel fucking Quashie was preffered to Mascherano at West Ham, because Masher hadn't adapted at all to life in the Premier Legaue.
It takes foreigners time to adjust to the pace, a new team, their teammates roles, and what's expected of them. In fact, I'd say central midfield is probably the most difficult place to step into a new side in a different league. There are just far too many demands mate of midfielders these days, and if you've played what, 30 fucking minutes in 6 months? Then to expect him to be a marked improvement on what you already have in that position (regardless of Lucas/Mascherano's ability or inability) isn't realistic in my opinion.
He'll be a sub for many many games of this season, and rightly so in my opinion. As he's just not ready.
[/quote]
Any chance he'd have been ready a little sooner if he'd been given time in a few matches a bit sooner in the season? Or did he have to play 75minutes against an Italian team before anything else?
[/quote]
Well I dunno really mate. Rafa and the staff see him every day, and I guess they've made the judgement on him based on that. I think he's been unfortunate too. We'd definitely have seen him against Man City were we not forced to make two subs in the first 30 minutes for example. In other games I think Rafa's made the right substitutions.
I don't think he's ready to start games to be honest, but I do think we'll see a lot more of him off the bench in the coming weeks.
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37804.msg1010611#msg1010611 date=1260401011]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37804.msg1010608#msg1010608 date=1260400650]
Any chance he'd have been ready a little sooner if he'd been given time in a few matches a bit sooner in the season? Or did he have to play 75minutes against an Italian team before anything else?
[/quote]
Yea, I think Ryan is overcomplicating this a bit.
His point that we don't have all the information is sensible, as is querying that the blind assertion that we'd have won games if he had played.
But we've failed to perform in game after game after game. What have we really had to lose? We've learned nothing new and gained nothing in defeat. No different pothibilities.
[/quote]
I'm not.
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37804.msg1010608#msg1010608 date=1260400650]
Any chance he'd have been ready a little sooner if he'd been given time in a few matches a bit sooner in the season? Or did he have to play 75minutes against an Italian team before anything else?
[/quote]
Yea, I think Ryan is overcomplicating this a bit.
His point that we don't have all the information is sensible, as is querying that the blind assertion that we'd have won games if he had played.
But we've failed to perform in game after game after game. What have we really had to lose? We've learned nothing new and gained nothing in defeat. No different pothibilities.
[/quote]
I'm not.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010605#msg1010605 date=1260400423]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37804.msg1010596#msg1010596 date=1260399980]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
[/quote]
Sounds like a typical debut performance really. Anybody who expected anything more (especially from a central midfielder) is fooling themselves. I remember Roy Keane's first 10-15 games for United, and he was all over the place; ill-disciplined, dropping into the same areas as his midfield partner, tracking the wrong runners, if anything - trying too hard. Nigel fucking Quashie was preffered to Mascherano at West Ham, because Masher hadn't adapted at all to life in the Premier Legaue.
It takes foreigners time to adjust to the pace, a new team, their teammates roles, and what's expected of them. In fact, I'd say central midfield is probably the most difficult place to step into a new side in a different league. There are just far too many demands mate of midfielders these days, and if you've played what, 30 fucking minutes in 6 months? Then to expect him to be a marked improvement on what you already have in that position (regardless of Lucas/Mascherano's ability or inability) isn't realistic in my opinion.
He'll be a sub for many many games of this season, and rightly so in my opinion. As he's just not ready.
[/quote]Thats fine Ryan but the fact that we replaced our best midfielder with someone who is clearly not yet ready in december is the real problem.. It would be ok if we had back up that can do the job until he is ready to come in but we dont and it has cost us badly. I have no problem with benitez not playing him if hes not yet up to it. I do have a problem with the fact that we blew our budget in the summer on him without having sufficient quality in reserve to be able to cope in his absence
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37804.msg1010596#msg1010596 date=1260399980]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010588#msg1010588 date=1260399493]
I don't want to hate him at all Oncy. I want him to be fucking immense.
I'm trying to balance his output tonight with the fucking vitriol that's been aimed at Rafa for not selecting him in the final 20 minutes at Debrecen, or the final 15 against Lyon when apparently his introduction would have ensured a 2nd goal. I don't expect much from him this season, as I've said on numerous occassions, and I'm actually pretty confident he'll be a quality player in the longterm. But his lack of presence in our side has been used as the fucking massive stick to beat Rafa with for the last month, and it's ludicrous.
I guessed before the fucking lad ever played that he woiuldn't be ready, disciplined enough, or reliable enough YET to throw straight into games. It's not an indictment against his ability or potential, but this haranguing if Benitez who see's him every fucking day has been whooper-like material.
(Not aimed at you, obv).
[/quote]Ah right yeah fair enough.
I think you'd have been well chuffed mate, he holds the ball up well, never got flustered, never got pressured, didn't misplace a pass for most of the first half, passed it forward, demanded the ball, helped his team mates out etc.
He has this great jack of passing the ball into space infrint of players forcing them to move forwards all the time.
Flip side he didn't want to put a challenge in and did a kind of half arsed babelesque run with players rather than throw himself in. He also assumes that other players don't mind recieving the ball in almost no space so was happy to fizz it in to marked players.
There was good and bad in it. Exactly what you'd expect,
[/quote]
Sounds like a typical debut performance really. Anybody who expected anything more (especially from a central midfielder) is fooling themselves. I remember Roy Keane's first 10-15 games for United, and he was all over the place; ill-disciplined, dropping into the same areas as his midfield partner, tracking the wrong runners, if anything - trying too hard. Nigel fucking Quashie was preffered to Mascherano at West Ham, because Masher hadn't adapted at all to life in the Premier Legaue.
It takes foreigners time to adjust to the pace, a new team, their teammates roles, and what's expected of them. In fact, I'd say central midfield is probably the most difficult place to step into a new side in a different league. There are just far too many demands mate of midfielders these days, and if you've played what, 30 fucking minutes in 6 months? Then to expect him to be a marked improvement on what you already have in that position (regardless of Lucas/Mascherano's ability or inability) isn't realistic in my opinion.
He'll be a sub for many many games of this season, and rightly so in my opinion. As he's just not ready.
[/quote]Thats fine Ryan but the fact that we replaced our best midfielder with someone who is clearly not yet ready in december is the real problem.. It would be ok if we had back up that can do the job until he is ready to come in but we dont and it has cost us badly. I have no problem with benitez not playing him if hes not yet up to it. I do have a problem with the fact that we blew our budget in the summer on him without having sufficient quality in reserve to be able to cope in his absence
My issue with Ryan's argument is that ok Rafa see's him every day but in the games you have mentioned we had stagnated and ran out of ideas going forward, the fans know Aquilani to be an attacking midfielder who is a good passer of the ball and a player who has a good shot on him. Those attributes indicate that he could help going forward and change the game with a goal or an assist. Thats why people were getting frustrated.
No.
We cannot get back in the title race and we cannot get back into the CL.
So nothing can transform our season.
He will improve us and for 20 odd Million he bloody well should.
We cannot get back in the title race and we cannot get back into the CL.
So nothing can transform our season.
He will improve us and for 20 odd Million he bloody well should.
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=37804.msg1010625#msg1010625 date=1260401909]
Too lightweight to play for Liverpool under Benitez? Ridiculous. He is no more "lightweight" than Alonso was, and have you forgotten a certain someone? I'll tell you who. Lucas.
[/quote]
If we're going to focus on stregnth and midfield presence alone, which you've done, then it's worth poitning out that Lucas has far more about him (thus far) in the tackle than Aquilani.
It's part of Lucas' game that has improved considerably over the last 6 months. He puts in more tackles, intercepts more balls, and competes in the air far far better than he used to. On the limited views I've had of Aquilani so far, he's a long way behind the Brazilian in that aspect.
Too lightweight to play for Liverpool under Benitez? Ridiculous. He is no more "lightweight" than Alonso was, and have you forgotten a certain someone? I'll tell you who. Lucas.
[/quote]
If we're going to focus on stregnth and midfield presence alone, which you've done, then it's worth poitning out that Lucas has far more about him (thus far) in the tackle than Aquilani.
It's part of Lucas' game that has improved considerably over the last 6 months. He puts in more tackles, intercepts more balls, and competes in the air far far better than he used to. On the limited views I've had of Aquilani so far, he's a long way behind the Brazilian in that aspect.
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37804.msg1010624#msg1010624 date=1260401680]
My issue with Ryan's argument is that ok Rafa see's him every day but in the games you have mentioned we had stagnated and ran out of ideas going forward, the fans know Aquilani to be an attacking midfielder who is a good passer of the ball and a player who has a good shot on him. Those attributes indicate that he could help going forward and change the game with a goal or an assist. Thats why people were getting frustrated.
[/quote]
Actually, my main problem with Ryan's comment - apart from the fact that it was so heavily focused on defending Rafa - is that Rafa contradicts it. I'd be fine if Rafa came out and said "we bought him back in a couple of games for 15 minutes or 25 minutes. The injury flared up a bit after each game so we're taking it slower." Certainly not uncommon for the injury to flare a little after each game - that's the whole point of little cameos after all. But Rafa didn't say that and then he bought him on for one minute to waste time; a move that had absolutely no up side and only potential risk and down side.
Of course Rafa and his staff have more information but they kept saying "he's ahead of schedule" and "progressing very well". Forgive me if we take their word for this and then observe that their actions don't align with these statements.
I've never said that Aquilani will change our season or that he's the missing part which will bring the team together. But at a time when we're struggling horribly, clearly missing a player filling the role that Aquilani was bought to fill and hearing that he's fit but just needs game time, it pisses me right off to hear that it was probably the perfect approach to constantly find reasons to delay his return to match fitness.
My issue with Ryan's argument is that ok Rafa see's him every day but in the games you have mentioned we had stagnated and ran out of ideas going forward, the fans know Aquilani to be an attacking midfielder who is a good passer of the ball and a player who has a good shot on him. Those attributes indicate that he could help going forward and change the game with a goal or an assist. Thats why people were getting frustrated.
[/quote]
Actually, my main problem with Ryan's comment - apart from the fact that it was so heavily focused on defending Rafa - is that Rafa contradicts it. I'd be fine if Rafa came out and said "we bought him back in a couple of games for 15 minutes or 25 minutes. The injury flared up a bit after each game so we're taking it slower." Certainly not uncommon for the injury to flare a little after each game - that's the whole point of little cameos after all. But Rafa didn't say that and then he bought him on for one minute to waste time; a move that had absolutely no up side and only potential risk and down side.
Of course Rafa and his staff have more information but they kept saying "he's ahead of schedule" and "progressing very well". Forgive me if we take their word for this and then observe that their actions don't align with these statements.
I've never said that Aquilani will change our season or that he's the missing part which will bring the team together. But at a time when we're struggling horribly, clearly missing a player filling the role that Aquilani was bought to fill and hearing that he's fit but just needs game time, it pisses me right off to hear that it was probably the perfect approach to constantly find reasons to delay his return to match fitness.
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37804.msg1010655#msg1010655 date=1260404045]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37804.msg1010624#msg1010624 date=1260401680]
My issue with Ryan's argument is that ok Rafa see's him every day but in the games you have mentioned we had stagnated and ran out of ideas going forward, the fans know Aquilani to be an attacking midfielder who is a good passer of the ball and a player who has a good shot on him. Those attributes indicate that he could help going forward and change the game with a goal or an assist. Thats why people were getting frustrated.
[/quote]
Actually, my main problem with Ryan's comment - apart from the fact that it was so heavily focused on defending Rafa...
[/quote]
As opposed to the endless streams of abuse levelled at Rafa for not picking him away to Lyon or Debrecen or Blackburn cos he's have got us a second goal?
I'm trying to balance things out mate.
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37804.msg1010624#msg1010624 date=1260401680]
My issue with Ryan's argument is that ok Rafa see's him every day but in the games you have mentioned we had stagnated and ran out of ideas going forward, the fans know Aquilani to be an attacking midfielder who is a good passer of the ball and a player who has a good shot on him. Those attributes indicate that he could help going forward and change the game with a goal or an assist. Thats why people were getting frustrated.
[/quote]
Actually, my main problem with Ryan's comment - apart from the fact that it was so heavily focused on defending Rafa...
[/quote]
As opposed to the endless streams of abuse levelled at Rafa for not picking him away to Lyon or Debrecen or Blackburn cos he's have got us a second goal?
I'm trying to balance things out mate.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37804.msg1010659#msg1010659 date=1260404228]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37804.msg1010655#msg1010655 date=1260404045]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37804.msg1010624#msg1010624 date=1260401680]
My issue with Ryan's argument is that ok Rafa see's him every day but in the games you have mentioned we had stagnated and ran out of ideas going forward, the fans know Aquilani to be an attacking midfielder who is a good passer of the ball and a player who has a good shot on him. Those attributes indicate that he could help going forward and change the game with a goal or an assist. Thats why people were getting frustrated.
[/quote]
Actually, my main problem with Ryan's comment - apart from the fact that it was so heavily focused on defending Rafa...
[/quote]
As opposed to the endless streams of abuse levelled at Rafa for not picking him away to Lyon or Debrecen or Blackburn cos he's have got us a second goal?
I'm trying to balance things out mate.
[/quote]
He would have gave us more of a chance of scoring a second than what we saw.
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37804.msg1010655#msg1010655 date=1260404045]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37804.msg1010624#msg1010624 date=1260401680]
My issue with Ryan's argument is that ok Rafa see's him every day but in the games you have mentioned we had stagnated and ran out of ideas going forward, the fans know Aquilani to be an attacking midfielder who is a good passer of the ball and a player who has a good shot on him. Those attributes indicate that he could help going forward and change the game with a goal or an assist. Thats why people were getting frustrated.
[/quote]
Actually, my main problem with Ryan's comment - apart from the fact that it was so heavily focused on defending Rafa...
[/quote]
As opposed to the endless streams of abuse levelled at Rafa for not picking him away to Lyon or Debrecen or Blackburn cos he's have got us a second goal?
I'm trying to balance things out mate.
[/quote]
He would have gave us more of a chance of scoring a second than what we saw.
Is there no room for rolling the dice and attempting to make some sort of change?
Of course we don't know if he would have offered more, but again, we are told he was rehabbed, but not match fit, so what would the downside to substitute appearances be? We haven't been winning games anyway.
Of course we don't know if he would have offered more, but again, we are told he was rehabbed, but not match fit, so what would the downside to substitute appearances be? We haven't been winning games anyway.
I'm too pissed to read all this. The main point is he showed more in 3 touches than Lucas has this season.
He made a simple pass forwards with some zip on it. Forget the hollywood stuff he may or may not do, Lucas has not done that all season.
Well done Alberto. Carry on.
He made a simple pass forwards with some zip on it. Forget the hollywood stuff he may or may not do, Lucas has not done that all season.
Well done Alberto. Carry on.
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