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Say we've got £30m left...

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peterhague

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How would you spend it? I reckon that's about what we'll have left if we sign Clyne and Bacca, which both look fairly likely right now.

Based on:

Budget of £30m
Sterling £40m
Other sales £25m

less outgoings.


DM for me, ideally a physical presence like William Carvalho. If there's enough left a LB wouldn't go amiss.

Then line up something like

Mignolet

Clyne
Skrtel
Sakho
Moreno

Carvalho
Can
Milner
Coutinho

Firmino
Sturridge
 
Illaramendi and a left back. We were linked to lucas digne from PSG last week. We manage to do that I'd be happy

Obviously carvalho would be a great signing, can't say I'd complain
 
We are stacked with central defenders but they're all disasters in different forms.
Lovren-Useless.
The positional sense of an epileptic pilot.
Sakho-We'll probably be lucky to get 15 games out of him.
Skrtel-Error prone but he's probably the best we've got at the moment.

Illori and Gomez are projects at the current time most likely.

Kolo and Wisdom are decent back up but that's about it.
They really shouldn't be starting for a club with ambitions of winning anything.

I'd have no problem in going out and buying a top defender for 15-20 million if he was a leader and dominant.
All the things Lovren was supposed to be.

Who's available that would instantly improve us?
Not sure but Otamendi and Garay would be two that I'd consider at the right price.
It's all well and good being stacked in a position but when 3/4's of them would be surplus to requirements at any other top club it can't be good.
Sign a top central defender I says.
 
A defensive midfielder is an absolute must. But we don't really seem to be linked with any.
 
I pretty much agree with that, it's still a weakness for me even with all the numbers. I'd sell Lovren, he's fucking useless.

The only CB I've seen us linked with is Abdennour at Monaco. So that probably means we're not after one.
 
I pretty much agree with that, it's still a weakness for me even with all the numbers. I'd sell Lovren, he's fucking useless.

The only CB I've seen us linked with is Abdennour at Monaco. So that probably means we're not after one.


Haha "he's fucking useless" tickled me there. It's always the simple ones. The list of clips Ryan posted of his defending this year have seriously shaken my faith in him, but I think, with a bit of coaching and the defence working as a unit, he could be a decent player for us. I'm not completely writing him off yet.

As for the £30m, it doesn't really get you much these days. I would say a player like Schneiderlin or Nainggolan, but £30m would probably just about get them in today's market, never mind leaving money over for a LB, too, which is where I reckon we also need to add some quality.

I'm gonna pussy out and say Nainggolan and Digne, though. Neither would happen.
 
Haha "he's fucking useless" tickled me there. It's always the simple ones. The list of clips Ryan posted of his defending this year have seriously shaken my faith in him, but I think, with a bit of coaching and the defence working as a unit, he could be a decent player for us. I'm not completely writing him off yet.

As for the £30m, it doesn't really get you much these days. I would say a player like Schneiderlin or Nainggolan, but £30m would probably just about get them in today's market, never mind leaving money over for a LB, too, which is where I reckon we also need to add some quality.

I'm gonna pussy out and say Nainggolan and Digne, though. Neither would happen.


You can have both if you can name another realistic sale. The £25m includes Coates, Aspas, Borini, Balotelli, and Lambert.
 
Not sure about buying a LB, Moreno was our big investment in this area last summer and he needs a chance to develop (even though I have doubts about his defensive abilities). We also have Flanno who looked great before the injury and also deserves a chance.

I agree with Leo – the central defense is still not sorted and that's simply not acceptable at this point. I would cut our losses on Lovren, sell him for 10-12M and buy someone else for 15+M. That and Illaramendi, of course. If Illarramendi comes that's going to force Lucas out, most probably.

GK: Mignolet, Bogdan
CB: Skrtel, [NEW CB], Sakho, Ilori, Gomez (Can)
FB: [NEW RB (hopefully Clyne)], Moreno, Flanagan, Manquillo, (Gomez, Can)
CM: Illarramendi, Can, Milner, Henderson, Allen
AM: Coutinho, Lallana, Firmino, Markovic, Ibe
ST: Sturridge, [NEW CF], Origi, Ings

If those [NEW] players are good enough, this team should have a good chance for top-4 finish.
 
Woah woah woah...

I can’t have this ‘we need another CB to replace X, Y, Z’ chat. It just can’t be the default solution to this problem.

We’ve got Lovren, Skrtel, Sakho, Toure, Ilori, Wisdom, Gomez, and probably someone else I’m forgetting about to work with. There’s a CB pairing in there somewhere. And that’d all you need; a pairing. Not a triumverate, not a rotating wheel of them, just two blokes who can play togethor. Vidic and Ferdinand, Hyypia & Henchoz, Terry & Cahill, etc etc. They don’t have to be similar, in fact it’d be better if they weren’t. They just have to compliment each other, know each other, and build an on-field relationship. I don’t give a fuck who they are, just pick them,educate them, and let them learn.

Let’s have a look at the CB pairings that finished above us last season;

Terry & Cahill
Koscielny & Mertesacker
Jones & Smalling
Kompany & Mangala
And whomever Spurs had.

Bar Terry, there’s not a world class defender in that list. Bar Terry & Cahill, there’s not even a decent pairing in that list. Outside of Chelsea, they’re all fucking meh-level ordinary. And they finished above us.

No one is going to convince me that Gary fucking Cahill is any better than what we’ve got in our list of centre-backs. But he’s a premier league winner, and he contributed to clean sheets last season. Why?

Because he’s in a side that values defending. Fuck knows why more don’t. Had Wenger and Arsenal valued it at all in the last 10 years, they’d have a handful of titles. But they don’t. They value dainty number 10’s, and open expansive football. League titles? Zero.

John Terry will be 35 this year. His peak was probably 7 or 8 years ago alongside Carvalho. Why is a 35 year old, who peaked in the last decade still the best centre back in the country??Because he lives and breathes defending. If there are 5 choices he has to make at any one moment in time, you can guarantee that doing the right thing defensively will be in the first 4. Playing his way out of a situation will come last in that list. It’s first in our list. It’s the default route coached by Rodgers; 'can you play your way out of this?’ At what point do we acknowledge that it isn’t working? Do we not analyse the league table and see the monumental goals against figure and think we should do something to rectify it?

Bad defending isn’t a blip with us, it’s us. So I can’t blame Lovren, or Sakho, or Toure or whomever, because laying the blame on one individual for our defensive woes is like blaming your radiator for global warming.

If you took Gary Cahill out of that Chelsea side and stuck him into ours, we’d be just as fucking shit. So it’s not a player issue, it’s one of coaching and mentality. You have to respect that defending is critical, and you’ve got to teach it. You can’t keep spending 20M every summer on a centre back and expect things to improve automatically. Why not educate the fucking plethora of expensive ones you’ve already got?

Martin Skrtel’s been playing in the Premier League for what, 7 years? The guy actually does not know how to defend. It’s frightening. I watch him every week and marvel at how he’s managed to get this far at this level without the basic pre-requisites needed to function in a cohesive defensive structure. He can’t hold a line. Actually, fuck that, he doesn’t even know what a defensive line is. He’s reactive, he’s late, he’s never in control, and his positioning in play, and at man-marking and set-pieces is diabolical. I don’t blame him though, I blame the fuckers supposedly teaching him from Monday-Friday; what are they doing? And he’s emblematic of every fucker we’ve got. Lovren, Skrtel, Sakho, Ilori, Toure, etc – all International players. How is this possible?

If we taught them properly, and these cunts still turn out to be fucking useless, then fuck them off and buy replacements. No problem.

But let’s stop assuming that spending 20M every July to fix this issue that we’ve had for years is the answer, cos it clearly isn’t.
 
A left back and Dembele would do for me.
Failing that spend 30M on a defensive minded assistant coach.

As mentioned in the Clyne thread we are looking pretty decent on paper now.
 
Woah woah woah...

I can’t have this ‘we need another CB to replace X, Y, Z’ chat. It just can’t be the default solution to this problem.

We’ve got Lovren, Skrtel, Sakho, Toure, Ilori, Wisdom, Gomez, and probably someone else I’m forgetting about to work with. There’s a CB pairing in there somewhere. And that’d all you need; a pairing. Not a triumverate, not a rotating wheel of them, just two blokes who can play togethor. Vidic and Ferdinand, Hyypia & Henchoz, Terry & Cahill, etc etc. They don’t have to be similar, in fact it’d be better if they weren’t. They just have to compliment each other, know each other, and build an on-field relationship. I don’t give a fuck who they are, just pick them,educate them, and let them learn.

Let’s have a look at the CB pairings that finished above us last season;

Terry & Cahill
Koscielny & Mertesacker
Jones & Smalling
Kompany & Mangala
And whomever Spurs had.

Bar Terry, there’s not a world class defender in that list. Bar Terry & Cahill, there’s not even a decent pairing in that list. Outside of Chelsea, they’re all fucking meh-level ordinary. And they finished above us.

No one is going to convince me that Gary fucking Cahill is any better than what we’ve got in our list of centre-backs. But he’s a premier league winner, and he contributed to clean sheets last season. Why?

Because he’s in a side that values defending. Fuck knows why more don’t. Had Wenger and Arsenal valued it at all in the last 10 years, they’d have a handful of titles. But they don’t. They value dainty number 10’s, and open expansive football. League titles? Zero.

John Terry will be 35 this year. His peak was probably 7 or 8 years ago alongside Carvalho. Why is a 35 year old, who peaked in the last decade still the best centre back in the country??Because he lives and breathes defending. If there are 5 choices he has to make at any one moment in time, you can guarantee that doing the right thing defensively will be in the first 4. Playing his way out of a situation will come last in that list. It’s first in our list. It’s the default route coached by Rodgers; 'can you play your way out of this?’ At what point do we acknowledge that it isn’t working? Do we not analyse the league table and see the monumental goals against figure and think we should do something to rectify it?

Bad defending isn’t a blip with us, it’s us. So I can’t blame Lovren, or Sakho, or Toure or whomever, because laying the blame on one individual for our defensive woes is like blaming your radiator for global warming.

If you took Gary Cahill out of that Chelsea side and stuck him into ours, we’d be just as fucking shit. So it’s not a player issue, it’s one of coaching and mentality. You have to respect that defending is critical, and you’ve got to teach it. You can’t keep spending 20M every summer on a centre back and expect things to improve automatically. Why not educate the fucking plethora of expensive ones you’ve already got?

Martin Skrtel’s been playing in the Premier League for what, 7 years? The guy actually does not know how to defend. It’s frightening. I watch him every week and marvel at how he’s managed to get this far at this level without the basic pre-requisites needed to function in a cohesive defensive structure. He can’t hold a line. Actually, fuck that, he doesn’t even know what a defensive line is. He’s reactive, he’s late, he’s never in control, and his positioning in play, and at man-marking and set-pieces is diabolical. I don’t blame him though, I blame the fuckers supposedly teaching him from Monday-Friday; what are they doing? And he’s emblematic of every fucker we’ve got. Lovren, Skrtel, Sakho, Ilori, Toure, etc – all International players. How is this possible?

If we taught them properly, and these cunts still turn out to be fucking useless, then fuck them off and buy replacements. No problem.

But let’s stop assuming that spending 20M every July to fix this issue that we’ve had for years is the answer, cos it clearly isn’t.


I'm a bit confused - do we need a better defender than Skrtel or not?

Let's assume Rodgers is gone and a better coach comes in. Would that be enough or is personnel also a problem?
 
I'm greedy.

Illarramendi & Kovacic for me.


Kovacic is a bit of a luxury with Firmino, Henderson and Markovic doing what he does and already here. Illaramendi on the other hand is what we definitely need; the combination of Lucas and Allen's best qualities in one player, with a touch of Xabi's class.
 
I'm a bit confused - do we need a better defender than Skrtel or not?

Let's assume Rodgers is gone and a better coach comes in. Would that be enough or is personnel also a problem?


Long term we do need better than Skrtel yeah, cos he's ageing and has proven he can't cut it. But in the short term we could work with him and improve him.

Re your second question; we need better coaching. Whether that comes from Rodgers or someone else is irrelevent really, it just needs to happen.
 
Long term we do need better than Skrtel yeah, cos he's ageing and has proven he can't cut it. But in the short term we could work with him and improve him.

Re your second question; we need better coaching. Whether that comes from Rodgers or someone else is irrelevent really, it just needs to happen.

Sure, but a new coach has just been hired, so they are trying to address it; now it's time to focus on the players. Would you stick with Lovren for another season, Ryan? Do you see potential for a big improvement in his performance compared to last season?

For me, I just don't see that Lovren has got much else in his locker that he didn't show last season. So if that's not good enough for our first-choice defender (and it's not), then why keep him? I was for this signing, but I was wrong – now I know that looking like a leader doesn't mean you have what it takes to make others follow... In other words, he got found out.
 
Skrtel has proven he can cut it. He was bought by and played under Rafa, a coach that very much values defensive organization and discipline. At times he's looked very good in that sort of setup, so we know he can be a Cahill or better to carry on with the same example.

The argument for binning him off can only be down to age and / or having better options in the squad.

I agree with the main point though and I've said it before, the last thing we need to do is to spend another huge fee on a centre back. We've got enough to work with.
 
Yep, I wanted to reply to peter's post in the other thread last night, but most of the points have been covered already.

In 2008-09, Skrtel was ever present in Rafa's defence that conceded only 27 goals. Best in the league I think that season. He was also quite good with Agger under Kenny. He's certainly better than Dimechelis, Lescott and whatever shit United have playing at the back. At par with the likes of Cahill and Koscielny.

In my knowledge, there is no CB in Europe we could buy who would walk into our first team by virtue of being clearly better than Skrtel, Sakho, Lovren. In fact, I think there are barely any top CBs around anymore. The best defensive teams are the ones who are (a) the best drilled; (b) have full-backs who can defend; and (c) a quality dedicated holding mid. I just don't see defence as a problem that can be sorted by simply a change in personnel.

The only emerging stand-out defender seems to be Varane, and our boy Ilori seems to share many of his physical and technical qualities. I'd rather let him have a go before wanting to sign anyone else frankly. Hopefully he doesn't get ruled out for the season through injury or something.
 
It's as Ryan said up there, and I said somewhere else in a thread that I can't find now... We could do with better defenders, but throwing money at it and expecting it to work won't cut it. We have to offer the defence more protection coming from the rest of the team as well as, y'know, actually doing some defensive coaching and getting the defence to work as a unit. That's how the likes of Alex Bruce and Paul McShane don't look as comical as our defenders on such a regular basis.
 
We need our strikers and midfielders to do much more harrying and our defenders to stop trying to play it out from the back. In short our central defenders should be watching the play build in front of them rather than be thrust straight into action as our current midfield is bypassed by the likes of Palace etc

The £30m should be spent on a striker and that should be Carlos Bacca who brings goals and energy.
 
I agree we need a striker but I'm not sure about Bacca. It's a lot of dough for a 28 year old with one good season under his belt. And it was the Spanish league. Even Messi and Ronaldo get a bagful there.
 
I wonder if we could get Aubameyang? He seems ideal.

I've also got reservations about Bacca but just the fact he's not Benteke silences most of them for now.
 
Bacca would be ace but as others have said 21,3 mill is a lot for a 28 year old.
But after 2 very good seasons for Sevilla I think he'll adapt to this league without any trouble.
Mostly because of his playing style. If you get 3 good years from him it would be worth it imho.

Rondon is probably the wiser choice given age and fee but as long as we stay away from Benteke its fine.
That said, Benteke wont sign a new contract so there is a chance he'll leave for less if Villa accept that in the end. Sadly.
 
Remember, United spent what, 24 mil on a 29 year old Van Persie, and he was instrumental in them winning the league that year, scoring 26 league goals.
 
Remember, United spent what, 24 mil on a 29 year old Van Persie, and he was instrumental in them winning the league that year, scoring 26 league goals.


different league though not sure it's a fair comparison, we signed Morientes when he was 29...
 
I dont want Bacca.
I would like us to sign Illaremendi although Carvalho is a really good shout as an alternate.

LB im not convinced we need because Moreno has the raw meterials to be a very good one we need to coach him better as we do with all our defenders. I also think Sakho could become a decent option at LB with his athletecism.

We have so many CBs that I wouldnt see any need for one as has been said.

So in an ideal world
Clyne
Illaremendi
CF - If im allowed to dream then Higuan or Benzema (I know yeah) but Rondon seems a good option as does Aubameyang.
If we had anything left after that then another strong box to box midfielder would be my option Kovacic would be perfect or Miralem, but you all know I love him already.

I wont do a best 11 because Ryan hates that but
Mignolet/Ward/Bogdan

Moreno/Sakho/Flanagan

Clyne/Flanagan/Manquillo

Skrtel/Sakho/Lovren/Ilori/Gomez/Can

Illaremendi/Lucas/Can

Allen/Henderson/Milner/Kovacic

Coutinho/Ibe/Firmino/Lallana/Markovic

Sturridge/Aubameyang/Ings/Origi

Looks plenty good enough to me to challenge at the top end of the table.
 
....................Migs*
Clyne....Skrtel*....Sakho*...Moreno*
......................X
........Milner...........Coutinho
.................Firmino
........Bacca.....Sturridge


For me that's our best lineup based on the suggested signings. I can't see him leaving out the new boys, I don't think he'd sign Milner/Firmino/Bacca for the squad.
There's no obvious guaranteed DM for me, although the boss might see Lucas/Henderson/Allen/Can as a guaranteed starter. I'd buy a specialist DM with the money, but I really can't see the boss buying someone for that role who can tackle.
The players with *'s I think could all be improved upon if the boss wanted to spend the money on it.

I know this might be blindly optimistic, but I think with that team above, with a good DM in it, has all the attributes for a title challenge, not just top 4. A solid DM could stabilise our defence, and there is boatloads of creativity, pace and goals in the top half of the pitch.
 
What's really missing is a quality wide right player who is left footed, which is why I'd be tempted by a move for Volland. Imagine this.


Illaramendi Milner

Volland FIrmino Coutinho

Sturridge

Ignoring club, player willingness etc, crazy to think that our budget could fit in

Firmino
Illarramendi
Volland
Clyne
Bacca

That would cost around 90 - 95 mil

Factor in Sterling, Allen, Lucas, Balo, Borini, Aspas sales and that's only 30 mil or so net spend. When you factor in Gomez.

Ok, back to the real world
 
What's really missing is a quality wide right player who is left footed, which is why I'd be tempted by a move for Volland. Imagine this.


Illaramendi Milner

Volland FIrmino Coutinho

Sturridge

Ignoring club, player willingness etc, crazy to think that our budget could fit in

Firmino
Illarramendi
Volland
Clyne
Bacca

That would cost around 90 - 95 mil

Factor in Sterling, Allen, Lucas, Balo, Borini, Aspas sales and that's only 30 mil or so net spend. When you factor in Gomez.

Ok, back to the real world


I've said from the start that our squad was basically strong in terms of assets: it just needed the right sales and signings along with a modest budget, and it could be pushed into title-challenging territory.
 
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