Ryan Babel

[gkmacca]

As far as I'm concerned, Babel sums up what's wrong with our reserve set up. In Paisley's day, and even in Dalglish's day, we used to buy someone with this kind of potential, play him in the reserves and then, when he'd grown used to the system and shown some form, he'd get a chance. That to me is still the best use of the reserves - not, like now, using it as a kind of premier league of the youth set up. The likes of Pacheco would benefit from mixing with a few senior players, and senior players who currently do nowt but warm the bench from game to game would actually get some form and match fitness. It's a very rare (and lucky) player who proves his worth just by coming on off the bench every ten matches.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33782.msg876459#msg876459 date=1243428913]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33782.msg876456#msg876456 date=1243428831]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33782.msg876453#msg876453 date=1243428649]

Err.. actually you're talking bollocks even comparing our rotation with Uniteds'. Fergie doesn't rotate Ronaldo for N'Gog.. or Rooney for Lucas.. it works for them, it doesn't work for us.. that's all that counts.. and doing it early on in the season (in the first 5-10 games) is suicidal to any title hopes FOR US.
[/quote]

so maybe what we need is more squad players and better players on the bench....
[/quote]

Which goes back to the original criticism of Rafa.. that's he bought some sh*te players.
[/quote]

apart from Gerrard and Carra he's bought them all and yet we finish in the top 3 with relative ease, that's not too bad. you have to trust he will learn from the mistakes rather than repeat them

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33782.msg876471#msg876471 date=1243429392]
As far as I'm concerned, Babel sums up what's wrong with our reserve set up. In Paisley's day, and even in Dalglish's day, we used to buy someone with this kind of potential, play him in the reserves and then, when he'd grown used to the system and shown some form, he'd get a chance. That to me is still the best use of the reserves - not, like now, using it as a kind of premier league of the youth set up. The likes of Pacheco would benefit from mixing with a few senior players, and senior players who currently do nowt but warm the bench from game to game would actually get some form and match fitness. It's a very rare (and lucky) player who proves his worth just by coming on off the bench every ten matches.
[/quote]

Very few teams would spend £11.5m on a 20 year old and play them in the reserves.

 

[Terrier]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33782.msg876471#msg876471 date=1243429392]
As far as I'm concerned, Babel sums up what's wrong with our reserve set up. In Paisley's day, and even in Dalglish's day, we used to buy someone with this kind of potential, play him in the reserves and then, when he'd grown used to the system and shown some form, he'd get a chance. That to me is still the best use of the reserves - not, like now, using it as a kind of premier league of the youth set up. The likes of Pacheco would benefit from mixing with a few senior players, and senior players who currently do nowt but warm the bench from game to game would actually get some form and match fitness. It's a very rare (and lucky) player who proves his worth just by coming on off the bench every ten matches.
[/quote]


The days of using the b-team as some sort of spring board for entry into the a-team are long gone.

In today's game, time is of the essence, anything that isn't an instant hit, is often discarded as shit or useless.

Who was the last player to have a slow start at Liverpool and go onto become a true regular fixture? Can't think of many.

 

[manwithnoname]

In today's game, time is of the essence, anything that isn't an instant hit, is often discarded as shit or useless.
Who was the last player to have a slow start at Liverpool and go onto become a true regular fixture? Can't think of many.

Maybe Carragher. I used to cringe reading some of the stuff people spouted about him. Still do.

 

[Terrier]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33782.msg876486#msg876486 date=1243430495]

In today's game, time is of the essence, anything that isn't an instant hit, is often discarded as shit or useless.
Who was the last player to have a slow start at Liverpool and go onto become a true regular fixture? Can't think of many.

Maybe Carragher. I used to cringe reading some of the stuff people spouted about him. Still do.
[/quote]



Hmm...I admit, I used to cringe seeing Carra playing on the left / right of the defense.

It wasn't that he was shit or anything, infact he was a pretty good left back, but it was his complete inability to carry the ball

past the half way that got on my wick.

Instead of looking for a nice smooth pass, he often chose to 'hoof n hope' it up field, breaking up any type of rhythm we tried to

build from the back.

 

[Bradley]

[quote author=Terrier link=topic=33782.msg876488#msg876488 date=1243430938]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33782.msg876486#msg876486 date=1243430495]

In today's game, time is of the essence, anything that isn't an instant hit, is often discarded as shit or useless.
Who was the last player to have a slow start at Liverpool and go onto become a true regular fixture? Can't think of many.

Maybe Carragher. I used to cringe reading some of the stuff people spouted about him. Still do.
[/quote]



Hmm...I admit, I used to cringe seeing Carra playing on the left / right of the defense.

It wasn't that he was shit or anything, infact he was a pretty good left back, but it was his complete inability to carry the ball

past the half way that got on my wick.

Instead of looking for a nice smooth pass, he often chose to 'hoof n hope' it up field, breaking up any type of rhythm we tried to

build from the back.

[/quote]

I hear ya. And most people would say that running with the ball and passing aren't Carra strong points, but in his book he sort of implies that he is the pass master.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33782.msg876471#msg876471 date=1243429392]
As far as I'm concerned, Babel sums up what's wrong with our reserve set up. In Paisley's day, and even in Dalglish's day, we used to buy someone with this kind of potential, play him in the reserves and then, when he'd grown used to the system and shown some form, he'd get a chance. That to me is still the best use of the reserves - not, like now, using it as a kind of premier league of the youth set up. The likes of Pacheco would benefit from mixing with a few senior players, and senior players who currently do nowt but warm the bench from game to game would actually get some form and match fitness. It's a very rare (and lucky) player who proves his worth just by coming on off the bench every ten matches.
[/quote]

I don't know Macca. In his first season he was bought for a hefty fee and played a fair deal, people make it sounds like he's spent his Liverpool career making fleeting 10 minute appearances. He's had runs in the side and contributed nothing consistent. There have been times when he's made a good contribution coming off the bench and then been rewarded with a start, only to then produce nothing.

Granted, as time's gone on he's found himself being rewarded less with starts, but I guess that's the price he's paying for his own inconsistency.

Whether we like it or not there's some truth in that the game has changed and the need for players to seize opportunities has become greater, especially the higher the level of club they're at and the higher the fee. We can't afford to give youngsters a run as much as someone like Everton can. We've had success and we're financially in a better position than most clubs, so the demand to show your worth from the off is greater.

The main criticism I'd make of Rafa, much like with his treatment of Keane, is him not doing his homework on the player. Once again he's found himself with a costly, talented footballer whom he doesn't know how to handle in a football sense and in a manager/player relationship sense.

 

[cochyn]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876454#msg876454 date=1243428708]
[quote author=cochyn link=topic=33782.msg876444#msg876444 date=1243428406]
What all the games he played whether or not on the left wing, the left of three, etc, etc where he underperformed, run down blind alleys, looked consistently dejected because he did not get his own way on the pitch, etc, etc.
And this is all based on before we bought riera and possibly benny where he got a run of games but was consistently under performing and consistently being subbed for under performing. Sorry keni but i think he has had a fair crack of the whip, but he has consistently failed to grasp said stick and show more than fleeting possibilities of promise and no improvement.
[/quote]

Looked dejected because he didn't get his own way on the pitch? What a load of hysterial bollocks.

He finished last season by winning us the CL tie against Arsenal and had an effect against Chelsea in the semis.

[/quote]

babel is an exceptionally lazy player end of story. Two games out of how many? Two games where he has produced something, and how many games has he produced squat!!

 

[keniget]

[quote author=cochyn link=topic=33782.msg876520#msg876520 date=1243433239]
babel is an exceptionally lazy player end of story. Two games out of how many? Two games where he has produced something, and how many games has he produced squat!!
[/quote]

*slow clap*

Bravo.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876521#msg876521 date=1243433399]
[quote author=cochyn link=topic=33782.msg876520#msg876520 date=1243433239]
babel is an exceptionally lazy player end of story. Two games out of how many? Two games where he has produced something, and how many games has he produced squat!!
[/quote]

*slow clap*

Bravo.
[/quote]

It's great him being a big game player n'all, and I don't really doubt his natural ability, this is really about two seasons of more often than not showing a shit first touch, a questionable attitude and nothing in 80% of the games he figures in, and then getting a big fuck off reprieve because he decides to pull his finger out in a big game.

Like I've said for ages, my frustration with him is because he's got it all (pretty much), as most people have said, he needs to fucking wake up.

Yeah Rafa's largely at fault too, and yeah he does have his blind spots with other players, but the sympathy vote Babel keeps getting is fucking embarrassing. He should rightfully take his share of the flack.

 

[cochyn]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876521#msg876521 date=1243433399]
[quote author=cochyn link=topic=33782.msg876520#msg876520 date=1243433239]
babel is an exceptionally lazy player end of story. Two games out of how many? Two games where he has produced something, and how many games has he produced squat!!
[/quote]

*slow clap*

Bravo.
[/quote]


so you think babel is a great player that will amount to great things with LFC, or even a great player badly treated by rafa?

 

[rebel23]

how many players become truly great? I can count them on my hand.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=cochyn link=topic=33782.msg876524#msg876524 date=1243433878]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876521#msg876521 date=1243433399]
[quote author=cochyn link=topic=33782.msg876520#msg876520 date=1243433239]
babel is an exceptionally lazy player end of story. Two games out of how many? Two games where he has produced something, and how many games has he produced squat!!
[/quote]

*slow clap*

Bravo.
[/quote]

so you think babel is a great player that will amount to great things with LFC, or even a great player badly treated by rafa?
[/quote]

I think that you ignored my post and basically chose to come back at me with a "LA LA LA LA HE'S SHIT I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY LA LA LA" response.

END OF STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876533#msg876533 date=1243434922]
[quote author=cochyn link=topic=33782.msg876524#msg876524 date=1243433878]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876521#msg876521 date=1243433399]
[quote author=cochyn link=topic=33782.msg876520#msg876520 date=1243433239]
babel is an exceptionally lazy player end of story. Two games out of how many? Two games where he has produced something, and how many games has he produced squat!!
[/quote]

*slow clap*

Bravo.
[/quote]

so you think babel is a great player that will amount to great things with LFC, or even a great player badly treated by rafa?
[/quote]

I think that you ignored my post and basically chose to come back at me with a "LA LA LA LA HE'S SHIT I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY LA LA LA" response.

END OF STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]

...and breathe...

see keni, that's why I've walked away from the subject of ryan babel.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=33782.msg876523#msg876523 date=1243433721]
It's great him being a big game player n'all, and I don't really doubt his natural ability, this is really about two seasons of more often than not showing a shit first touch, a questionable attitude and nothing in 80% of the games he figures in, and then getting a big fuck off reprieve because he decides to pull his finger out in a big game.

Like I've said for ages, my frustration with him is because he's got it all (pretty much), as most people have said, he needs to fucking wake up.

Yeah Rafa's largely at fault too, and yeah he does have his blind spots with other players, but the sympathy vote Babel keeps getting is fucking embarrassing. He should rightfully take his share of the flack.
[/quote]

Well, everyone sees this shit attitude of his, but not me. I don't doubt that he can be a bit casual at times, but the way some peope go on, you half imagine him running onto the pitch and basically sitting down on the left flank without moving till the final whistle goes. Maybe it's something you pick up at the match more, I don't know. From TV, I just don't get the bad attitude claims - it seems like ever since Rafa made some tiny remark in the press, it's snowballed.

That aside, he had an up and down first season, which you can sort of accept when a young player is new to the Prem.

This season he's been overlooked, passed over and has never gotten a run in the side. This was the case from Day 1 in the season, so it's got nothing to do with his attitude or performances. Rafa decided in the summer that he didn't fancy him and we all know that once that happens, the player is finished... particularly one like Babel that needs a manager that will really get behind him.

If you basically decided to write him off based on what you saw last season, which I know you pretty much did, then fair enough, you don't rate him as a player. What I don't accept is the whole "he's had chances to prove himself". No, no he hasn't. Not this season.

 

[LadyRed]

I wouldn't say it's a 'bad' attitude, as in arrogant, more a resigned one. And I'd agree that maybe it's one that is more apparent when at the game.

I don't go to many games so can't comment at length, but I will never forget his sub appearance at the Emirates. I was sitting with the Arsenal fans, and as soon as he began warming up the noises of dread started from their fans. He came on and had one bad touch, and that was it. After that it was like he avoided the ball. There were a couple of occasions when we played the ball forward on the attack, and he just lingered around the half way line, jogging. Gerrard had a moan at him a couple of times to get upfield, but he seemed to give up on him too. I was actually stunned by Babel that day. He literally avoided the ball. You can't do that.

Like I've said several times before, I've wanted it so bad for him, as I know if it comes together for him, he could be an awesome player, but due to a combination of his lack of fight and Rafa's lack of faith in him, it's just doesn't look like it's gonna happen for him here. So I can understand selling him, that said, there's still a part of me that thinks good form from Babel could just be around the next corner.

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=Bradleme link=topic=33782.msg876379#msg876379 date=1243424963]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33782.msg876367#msg876367 date=1243424427]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33782.msg876355#msg876355 date=1243422635]
[quote author=Bradleme link=topic=33782.msg876347#msg876347 date=1243422348]
All this talk of Rafa not giving him a chance is wrong.

He got his chance many times to come off the bench, [/quote]

ha ha fucking hell.
[/quote]

I LOL'd at that as well.


.. also at the bit that 8m "could be put to good use".. yeah, like.. Dossena.
[/quote]

What's so funny about that?

He was given a chance, unlike some of the kids coming through the ranks and he failed to deliver. On the other hand Yossi started the season getting his chance to come on as a sub, keeped his head down and finished the season as one of the first names on the sheet.

Also, take the £8 million from Babel, add another £2m from Pennant, £4m from Dossena and now we are going places.
[/quote]

Not that it's the most important thing, but the only thing we will get from Pennant leaving is the saving on his wages. He joined Portsmouth on a 6 month loan, he becomes a free agent at the end of the season.

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=33782.msg876544#msg876544 date=1243436082]
I wouldn't say it's a 'bad' attitude, as in arrogant, more a resigned one. And I'd agree that maybe it's one that is more apparent when at the game.

I don't go to many games so can't comment at length, but I will never forget his sub appearance at the Emirates. I was sitting with the Arsenal fans, and as soon as he began warming up the noises of dread started from their fans. He came on and had one bad touch, and that was it. After that it was like he avoided the ball. There were a couple of occasions when we played the ball forward on the attack, and he just lingered around the half way line, jogging. Gerrard had a moan at him a couple of times to get upfield, but he seemed to give up on him too. I was actually stunned by Babel that day. He literally avoided the ball. You can't do that.

Like I've said several times before, I've wanted it so bad for him, as I know if it comes together for him, he could be an awesome player, but due to a combination of his lack of fight and Rafa's lack of faith in him, it's just doesn't look like it's gonna happen for him here. So I can understand selling him, that said, there's still a part of me that thinks good form from Babel could just be around the next corner.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that's it exactly. Babel's 'bad attitude' is mostly a lack of confidence. When he comes on and has a good first touch, he can look a world-beater (cf the sub appearance v Chelsea in last season's CL match), but more often than not he seems to have no faith in his ability at all. Whether the problem is truly psychological or (as I suspect) a result of him not actually being that good a footballer - in the sense that even average players, if they're fast and strong, are capable of looking brilliant from time to time - I don't know, but the net result is the same. He's not going to make it here.

Oh, and the only time I've seen him live and close-up, in the Toulouse CL qualifier last season, he spent the whole match walking around in the shade. Fair enough, it was a hot day, but I was still pretty shocked by his apparent laziness.

 

[MaschedUp]

I do agree that Babel is sometimes lazy, but the way he's been treated by Rafa has really kicked the confidence and enthusiasm to a point where he doesn't give a fuck any more. Pretty much the way the same way Rafa treated Crouch and then Keane.

It's very rare that you find a player with the attributes he has. He is big, powerful, pacey and scores goals (well used to anyways). Half the managers around Europe would cut off their right arm for a player like that in their team.

How on earth as a player would you feel scoring either one or two goals in a game or two matches on the trot and then hardly seeing any pitch time for the next 5 games? If it was me, it would kick the stuffing out of me.

He will be sold as all bridges have been burnt from both sides and it's simply another case of Rafa buying an attacking player and not really knowing what to do with him, and then playing him completely in the wrong position.

We'll be lucky to get £8m for him.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876183#msg876183 date=1243410569]
Has this been reported anywhere?

The writing was on the wall since Aug / September really. Shame - I had high hope for him.
[/quote]

Me too. Talented lad, but for many reasons it just didn't work out for him with us. I'm sure he'll do well elsewhere.

 

[gkmacca]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33782.msg876479#msg876479 date=1243429879]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33782.msg876471#msg876471 date=1243429392]
As far as I'm concerned, Babel sums up what's wrong with our reserve set up. In Paisley's day, and even in Dalglish's day, we used to buy someone with this kind of potential, play him in the reserves and then, when he'd grown used to the system and shown some form, he'd get a chance. That to me is still the best use of the reserves - not, like now, using it as a kind of premier league of the youth set up. The likes of Pacheco would benefit from mixing with a few senior players, and senior players who currently do nowt but warm the bench from game to game would actually get some form and match fitness. It's a very rare (and lucky) player who proves his worth just by coming on off the bench every ten matches.
[/quote]

Very few teams would spend £11.5m on a 20 year old and play them in the reserves.


[/quote]

Well, does it seem more prudent to spend £11.5m and keep him on the bench?

 

[gkmacca]

[quote author=Terrier link=topic=33782.msg876483#msg876483 date=1243430196]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33782.msg876471#msg876471 date=1243429392]
As far as I'm concerned, Babel sums up what's wrong with our reserve set up. In Paisley's day, and even in Dalglish's day, we used to buy someone with this kind of potential, play him in the reserves and then, when he'd grown used to the system and shown some form, he'd get a chance. That to me is still the best use of the reserves - not, like now, using it as a kind of premier league of the youth set up. The likes of Pacheco would benefit from mixing with a few senior players, and senior players who currently do nowt but warm the bench from game to game would actually get some form and match fitness. It's a very rare (and lucky) player who proves his worth just by coming on off the bench every ten matches.
[/quote]


The days of using the b-team as some sort of spring board for entry into the a-team are long gone.

In today's game, time is of the essence, anything that isn't an instant hit, is often discarded as shit or useless.

Who was the last player to have a slow start at Liverpool and go onto become a true regular fixture? Can't think of many.


[/quote]

Are you being deliberately fatalistic or is it accidental? My point was a practical one - it wasn't a deluded account of how things currently are. Are you seriously, genuinely, convinced that this use of the reserves is of more value than the previous one? Why?

 

[keniget]

It might work if you're buying a 19 year old from Chester, but would established names who have played in Europe's top competitions come to play for our reserves?

It's an unlikely scenario.

 

[foureyes]

I certainly wouldn't have bought him with the intention of playing him in the reserves, but it may well have been of some benefit to him to have played for a short while in the reserves. It would have given him some game time and given him the kick up the arse he probably needed.

 

[gkmacca]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876608#msg876608 date=1243445085]
It might work if you're buying a 19 year old from Chester, but would established names who have played in Europe's top competitions come to play for our reserves?

It's an unlikely scenario.
[/quote]

Look, it's no more unlikely, logically, than sitting on the FECKING bench! what is wrong with people? Why the hell is he leaving? Because he's sat on the fecking BENCH! It's not 'deep'. Christ! Players need to play. What exactly do you like about the role of the reserves today? Anyone...?

 

[keniget]

I get your argument and I also think the reserves system is flawed, but I just reckon that players would view playing for the reserves as demeaning. It's shit to be on the bench as well, but I suppose the argument is that you're looking to get your chance to compete - look at Yossi who was on the bench a lot earlier in the season.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33782.msg876617#msg876617 date=1243445728]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876608#msg876608 date=1243445085]
It might work if you're buying a 19 year old from Chester, but would established names who have played in Europe's top competitions come to play for our reserves?

It's an unlikely scenario.
[/quote]

Look, it's no more unlikely, logically, than sitting on the FECKING bench! what is wrong with people? Why the hell is he leaving? Because he's sat on the fecking BENCH! It's not 'deep'. Christ! Players need to play. What exactly do you like about the role of the reserves today? Anyone...?
[/quote]

Its obvious that our policy with the reserves is to create a 'B' team, comprised of young players usually under 20, the purpose of which is to develop players for the first team. It's clearly in its infancy but Insua has probably been the first success and to a lesser extent El Zhar, who have featured on several occasions. It's a variation on a theme. Buying players, put them in the reserves and hopefully a few will feature in the team.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33782.msg876623#msg876623 date=1243446551]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33782.msg876617#msg876617 date=1243445728]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33782.msg876608#msg876608 date=1243445085]
It might work if you're buying a 19 year old from Chester, but would established names who have played in Europe's top competitions come to play for our reserves?

It's an unlikely scenario.
[/quote]

Look, it's no more unlikely, logically, than sitting on the FECKING bench! what is wrong with people? Why the hell is he leaving? Because he's sat on the fecking BENCH! It's not 'deep'. Christ! Players need to play. What exactly do you like about the role of the reserves today? Anyone...?
[/quote]

Its obvious that our policy with the reserves is to create a 'B' team, comprised of young players usually under 20, the purpose of which is to develop players for the first team. It's clearly in its infancy but Insua has probably been the first success and to a lesser extent El Zhar, who have featured on several occasions. It's a variation on a theme. Buying players, put them in the reserves and hopefully a few will feature in the team.
[/quote]

Yeah that's pretty much it, the difference with Babel was that he was bought essentially for the first team squad. As said, Rafa shares a load of the blame over this, somewhere between signing him in the first place and not treating him correctly, but at the end of the day he cost £11m or whatever, so was expected to be gradually eased in to the point where his quality (and for that price too) would eventually show itself. The truth is it's shown itself in fits and starts to the point where the trust of the manager has completely gone after just one season.

Benitez fucked up but Babel has barely done himself many favours.

 

[the_khl]

I've still got high hopes for Babel an I for one hope he gets another Season to prove his worth. He's still young but now is the time for him to shine.

BABELTIME!