Rafa's Interview with The Times: Part 2

[keniget]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991102#msg991102 date=1258537627]
Let's just completely ignore the fact that Rafa went on and on and fucking ariston in that article about Barry PLAYING IN THE BASTARD MIDFIELD and completely focus on him saying Barry's versatile and COULD play on the left wing.
[/quote]

This was the quote:

“You never know,†he said slowly. “Football is a funny game. The plan was for Barry to play on the left and feed the ball to Robbie Keane, who would play up front with Fernando Torres. This blueprint had to be scrapped. The collateral damage was Keane, who signed from Tottenham Hotspur before the Barry deal had been done.

He talked about versatility later on, such as being able to play three positions including fullback, but when I read a manager saying that the "plan was for Barry to play on the left", well... I kind assume that the plan was for Barry to play on the left.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=37249.msg991117#msg991117 date=1258538208]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991102#msg991102 date=1258537627]
Let's just completely ignore the fact that Rafa went on and on and fucking ariston in that article about Barry PLAYING IN THE BASTARD MIDFIELD and completely focus on him saying Barry's versatile and COULD play on the left wing.
[/quote]

This was the quote:

“You never know,†he said slowly. “Football is a funny game. The plan was for Barry to play on the left and feed the ball to Robbie Keane, who would play up front with Fernando Torres. This blueprint had to be scrapped. The collateral damage was Keane, who signed from Tottenham Hotspur before the Barry deal had been done.

He talked about versatility later on, such as being able to play three positions including fullback, but when I read a manager saying that the "plan was for Barry to play on the left", well... I kind assume that the plan was for Barry to play on the left.
[/quote]

I took that as 'playing on the left of the midfield two'. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37249.msg991070#msg991070 date=1258531565]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=37249.msg991064#msg991064 date=1258529865]
Over the last 5 years, the league has gone to the two teams with the highest transfer spending and wage bill, thats a fact. It's all about money. Rafa has spent £15.5m net a season. He's punching way, way above his weight. I believe theres not a manager in world football who could do better with the same resources.
[/quote]

Wenger is doing far better, but the idea that under the same conditions there's an obvious improvement just sitting out there for me vastly underrates Rafa's ability, as well as the difficulty of the project.
[/quote]

By what measure (except perhaps that of playing attractive football)?

 

[keniget]

Who knows, maybe he did mean that but I certainly didn't read it that way.

The whole Alonso / Barry saga is probably the most baffling of Rafa's reign. Nothing really adds up.

 

[rage]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991119#msg991119 date=1258538293]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37249.msg991117#msg991117 date=1258538208]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991102#msg991102 date=1258537627]
Let's just completely ignore the fact that Rafa went on and on and fucking ariston in that article about Barry PLAYING IN THE BASTARD MIDFIELD and completely focus on him saying Barry's versatile and COULD play on the left wing.
[/quote]

This was the quote:

“You never know,†he said slowly. “Football is a funny game. The plan was for Barry to play on the left and feed the ball to Robbie Keane, who would play up front with Fernando Torres. This blueprint had to be scrapped. The collateral damage was Keane, who signed from Tottenham Hotspur before the Barry deal had been done.

He talked about versatility later on, such as being able to play three positions including fullback, but when I read a manager saying that the "plan was for Barry to play on the left", well... I kind assume that the plan was for Barry to play on the left.
[/quote]

I took that as 'playing on the left of the midfield two'. Maybe I'm wrong.
[/quote]

then there wouldn't be room for masch, gerrard and keane in the first 11.

i think he saw a future of a barry masch gerrard kuyt midfield with keane playng with torres.

it might have worked as a 433 but i think neither keane or kuyt are dynamic enough for that.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37249.msg991121#msg991121 date=1258538381]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37249.msg991070#msg991070 date=1258531565]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=37249.msg991064#msg991064 date=1258529865]
Over the last 5 years, the league has gone to the two teams with the highest transfer spending and wage bill, thats a fact. It's all about money. Rafa has spent £15.5m net a season. He's punching way, way above his weight. I believe theres not a manager in world football who could do better with the same resources.
[/quote]

Wenger is doing far better, but the idea that under the same conditions there's an obvious improvement just sitting out there for me vastly underrates Rafa's ability, as well as the difficulty of the project.
[/quote]

By what measure (except perhaps that of playing attractive football)?
[/quote]

By achieving what his club requires on far less resources. It doesn't hurt that the club requires those resources for a valid long term goal, either, but that doesn't have to do with Wenger directly.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg990935#msg990935 date=1258504311]
Rafa is the Premiership's equivalent of Jedward. A talentless chancer who's only still in the game because of the support of a bunch of deluded fuckwits who think he could be great.


[/quote]

well that's fucking marvelous, I could counter that by saying its deluded fuckwits that impatiently pounce everytime there is a slump but shut the fuck up everytime we go on a good run.

 

[Y1]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37249.msg991140#msg991140 date=1258539637]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg990935#msg990935 date=1258504311]
Rafa is the Premiership's equivalent of Jedward. A talentless chancer who's only still in the game because of the support of a bunch of deluded fuckwits who think he could be great.


[/quote]

well that's fucking marvelous, I could counter that by saying its deluded fuckwits that impatiently pounce everytime there is a slump but shut the fuck up everytime we go on a good run.
[/quote]

Whether we the fans support Rafa or not will make no difference, as it is the owners and to a certain extend, the MD who make the decision whether Rafa stay or go. So we have to deal with it.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Y1 link=topic=37249.msg991146#msg991146 date=1258539905]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37249.msg991140#msg991140 date=1258539637]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg990935#msg990935 date=1258504311]
Rafa is the Premiership's equivalent of Jedward. A talentless chancer who's only still in the game because of the support of a bunch of deluded fuckwits who think he could be great.


[/quote]

well that's fucking marvelous, I could counter that by saying its deluded fuckwits that impatiently pounce everytime there is a slump but shut the fuck up everytime we go on a good run.
[/quote]

Whether we the fans support Rafa or not will make no difference, as it is the owners and to a certain extend, the MD who make the decision whether Rafa stay or go. So we have to deal with it.
[/quote]

people should be could fuckwits because they are fuckwits not because they chose to support the manager.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37249.msg991138#msg991138 date=1258539386]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37249.msg991121#msg991121 date=1258538381]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37249.msg991070#msg991070 date=1258531565]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=37249.msg991064#msg991064 date=1258529865]
Over the last 5 years, the league has gone to the two teams with the highest transfer spending and wage bill, thats a fact. It's all about money. Rafa has spent £15.5m net a season. He's punching way, way above his weight. I believe theres not a manager in world football who could do better with the same resources.
[/quote]

Wenger is doing far better, but the idea that under the same conditions there's an obvious improvement just sitting out there for me vastly underrates Rafa's ability, as well as the difficulty of the project.
[/quote]

By what measure (except perhaps that of playing attractive football)?
[/quote]

By achieving what his club requires on far less resources. It doesn't hurt that the club requires those resources for a valid long term goal, either, but that doesn't have to do with Wenger directly.
[/quote]

Not convinced. While it's certainly true that the stadium - and what that will lead to - has been their priority, it would be interesting to know to what extent their dearth of trophies in the past few years corresponds with what the club requires. There were certainly murmurings from the fans last season.

As for the "fewer resources" point, again it depends on what measures one uses. A couple of weeks or so ago "The Times" did an analysis of club wage bills, what they'd expect each club to achieve in the light of them and how their actual performance has compared - a "bang for your buck" table if you will. Rafa came top among the big four.

 

[spider-Neil]

the annoying thing is we SOLD the club so we would have more resources not less. if rafa were indeed required to run the on a shoestring so the money could be put towards the stadium (like whinger) then why sell in the first place?

 

[Judge Jules]

Because Moores would not have had, nor would he have been able to find, enough money for the stadium however much (or little) Rafa was given. Leaving aside previous arguments about his and Parry's time in charge, and about the way the sale to H and G came about, at least Moores did finally face up to the fact that he wasn't going to be able to take the club further.

 

[KopKing]

That Wenger has built his team on a shoestring is a myth. We were priced out of buying the likes of Walcott and Ramsey. Not many managers could spend 5m+ on an unproven teenager. Also you need to look at the respective wage bills.

 

[Squiggles]

It isn't a myth at all.

Wenger's doing a very good job of keeping that club ticking over and competitive.

Their squad has been assembled a lot cheaper than any of the other big five.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37249.msg991296#msg991296 date=1258552695]
It isn't a myth at all.

Wenger's doing a very good job of keeping that club ticking over and competitive.

Their squad has been assembled a lot cheaper than any of the other big five.
[/quote]

Check the respective wage bills. Also Wenger is paying huge amounts for teenagers. Much more than we can afford or at least are willing to pay.

 

[rage]

wenger's won the premiership. he's earned the patience of his clubs fans.

what once was can be again.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37249.msg991151#msg991151 date=1258540297]
As for the "fewer resources" point, again it depends on what measures one uses. A couple of weeks or so ago "The Times" did an analysis of club wage bills, what they'd expect each club to achieve in the light of them and how their actual performance has compared - a "bang for your buck" table if you will. Rafa came top among the big four.
[/quote]

Arsenal have high wage bills, and incredibly low transfer costs. I don't think he's been coping "on a shoestring" but he has done better than Rafa at scouting and youth development, as well as most every other manager in the world.

 

[aquaman4]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37249.msg991157#msg991157 date=1258540525]
the annoying thing is we SOLD the club
[/quote]

to two yankees who want to suck the club dry and then sell the residue when they feel like it.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=37249.msg991064#msg991064 date=1258529865]
[quote author=Glock link=topic=37249.msg991014#msg991014 date=1258512900]

[/quote]

Oh dear!

Excuses, excuses and more excuses! Fucking hell! And he had prepare for next seasons excuses already! That's how advance Rafael is!

Money, money and money! Idiot!

And Gareth no pace Barry on the left?? So he lost the plot a while ago so.

Since we needed to sign English players why didn't he make move for Sturridge? Delph? Naughton? £10million would have signed the 3 of them. 3 future England internationals!!

Rafael thinks there are only 11 living English players and that you have to buy an NT player for them to be authentic English. Thus the daft pursuit of the average Gareth fucking Barry and the horrendous purchase of the average Glen fucking Johnson.

and this shit about Keane, when Rafa signed Keane he said he had plans to play upfront and on the right because apparently Keane could play on the right! The last time Robbie Keane played on the right was when he was at Wolves!


He really is just a complete muppet. He has to go.

RAFAEL OUT!
[/quote]

Over the last 5 years, the league has gone to the two teams with the highest transfer spending and wage bill, thats a fact. It's all about money. Rafa has spent £15.5m net a season. He's punching way, way above his weight. I believe theres not a manager in world football who could do better with the same resources.
[/quote]

Firstly our net spend is over £18m per season under Rafa - third highest in the league. The two clubs above us are Chelsea and Man City, the only two clubs in the league not run as proper businesses.

Secondly Man United are the fifth highest spenders during the Rafa years. We're above them in fourth place, behind Spurs, Chelsea and Man City.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=37249.msg991281#msg991281 date=1258551528]
That Wenger has built his team on a shoestring is a myth. We were priced out of buying the likes of Walcott and Ramsey. Not many managers could spend 5m+ on an unproven teenager. Also you need to look at the respective wage bills.
[/quote]

Again .... more facts and figures for you.

Arsenal are 18th in the net spend table for the Premiership in the last 5 years, their net spend is minus £26m.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991855#msg991855 date=1258586610]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=37249.msg991064#msg991064 date=1258529865]
[quote author=Glock link=topic=37249.msg991014#msg991014 date=1258512900]

[/quote]

Oh dear!

Excuses, excuses and more excuses! Fucking hell! And he had prepare for next seasons excuses already! That's how advance Rafael is!

Money, money and money! Idiot!

And Gareth no pace Barry on the left?? So he lost the plot a while ago so.

Since we needed to sign English players why didn't he make move for Sturridge? Delph? Naughton? £10million would have signed the 3 of them. 3 future England internationals!!

Rafael thinks there are only 11 living English players and that you have to buy an NT player for them to be authentic English. Thus the daft pursuit of the average Gareth fucking Barry and the horrendous purchase of the average Glen fucking Johnson.

and this shit about Keane, when Rafa signed Keane he said he had plans to play upfront and on the right because apparently Keane could play on the right! The last time Robbie Keane played on the right was when he was at Wolves!


He really is just a complete muppet. He has to go.

RAFAEL OUT!
[/quote]

Over the last 5 years, the league has gone to the two teams with the highest transfer spending and wage bill, thats a fact. It's all about money. Rafa has spent £15.5m net a season. He's punching way, way above his weight. I believe theres not a manager in world football who could do better with the same resources.
[/quote]

Firstly our net spend is over £18m per season under Rafa - third highest in the league. The two clubs above us are Chelsea and Man City, the only two clubs in the league not run as proper businesses.

Secondly Man United are the fifth highest spenders during the Rafa years. We're above them in fourth place, behind Spurs, Chelsea and Man City.
[/quote]

Ferdinand - 30M
Veron - 28M
Van Nistelrooy - 20M

That's 80M's worth of paid-for talent Ferguson had at his disposal prior to Rafa starting.

We had Neil Mellor and "le gems".

 

[Rosco]

Rafa partially explained his thinking for last season when talking about how he signed Keane so he could play 4-4-2 with Gerrard in the middle.

So given this latest news and what we already know (Selling Alonso), Rafa's plan was:


----------Keane --- Torres

Barry --- Gerrard ---- Mascherano ---- Kuyt


So that's a central midfield combo which hasn't ever really clicked, a striker on the right and a central midfielder on the left.

But comparisons to Houllier are just superficial.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991859#msg991859 date=1258587103]
Rafa partially explained his thinking for last season when talking about how he signed Keane so he could play 4-4-2 with Gerrard in the middle.

So given this latest news and what we already know (Selling Alonso), Rafa's plan was:


----------Keane --- Torres

Barry --- Gerrard ---- Mascherano ---- Kuyt


So that's a central midfield combo which hasn't ever really clicked, a striker on the right and a central midfielder on the left.

But comparisons to Houllier are just superficial.
[/quote]

It's markedly better than our current front 6.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991860#msg991860 date=1258587246]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991859#msg991859 date=1258587103]
Rafa partially explained his thinking for last season when talking about how he signed Keane so he could play 4-4-2 with Gerrard in the middle.

So given this latest news and what we already know (Selling Alonso), Rafa's plan was:


----------Keane --- Torres

Barry --- Gerrard ---- Mascherano ---- Kuyt


So that's a central midfield combo which hasn't ever really clicked, a striker on the right and a central midfielder on the left.

But comparisons to Houllier are just superficial.
[/quote]

It's markedly better than our current front 6.
[/quote]

And who's fault is that ?

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991864#msg991864 date=1258587343]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991860#msg991860 date=1258587246]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991859#msg991859 date=1258587103]
Rafa partially explained his thinking for last season when talking about how he signed Keane so he could play 4-4-2 with Gerrard in the middle.

So given this latest news and what we already know (Selling Alonso), Rafa's plan was:


----------Keane --- Torres

Barry --- Gerrard ---- Mascherano ---- Kuyt


So that's a central midfield combo which hasn't ever really clicked, a striker on the right and a central midfielder on the left.

But comparisons to Houllier are just superficial.
[/quote]

It's markedly better than our current front 6.
[/quote]

And who's fault is that ?
[/quote]

By 'current' I'm including N'gog, Lucas, Benayoun, N'gog etc - As they're in our current front 6.

As for who's fault it is that we didn't get to sign Barry and Keane? Dunno, tell me...

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991869#msg991869 date=1258587597]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991864#msg991864 date=1258587343]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991860#msg991860 date=1258587246]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991859#msg991859 date=1258587103]
Rafa partially explained his thinking for last season when talking about how he signed Keane so he could play 4-4-2 with Gerrard in the middle.

So given this latest news and what we already know (Selling Alonso), Rafa's plan was:


----------Keane --- Torres

Barry --- Gerrard ---- Mascherano ---- Kuyt


So that's a central midfield combo which hasn't ever really clicked, a striker on the right and a central midfielder on the left.

But comparisons to Houllier are just superficial.
[/quote]

It's markedly better than our current front 6.
[/quote]

And who's fault is that ?
[/quote]

By 'current' I'm including N'gog, Lucas, Benayoun, N'gog etc - As they're in our current front 6.

As for who's fault it is that we didn't get to sign Barry and Keane? Dunno, tell me...
[/quote]

Well given we had our best season in the league I think you've got to credit Parry for not allowing the sale of Alonso on the cheap and buying Barry to play him out of position.

We'd have been worse last season had Rafa got his wish, and we're worse this year because he did.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991870#msg991870 date=1258587701]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991869#msg991869 date=1258587597]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991864#msg991864 date=1258587343]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991860#msg991860 date=1258587246]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991859#msg991859 date=1258587103]
Rafa partially explained his thinking for last season when talking about how he signed Keane so he could play 4-4-2 with Gerrard in the middle.

So given this latest news and what we already know (Selling Alonso), Rafa's plan was:


----------Keane --- Torres

Barry --- Gerrard ---- Mascherano ---- Kuyt


So that's a central midfield combo which hasn't ever really clicked, a striker on the right and a central midfielder on the left.

But comparisons to Houllier are just superficial.
[/quote]

It's markedly better than our current front 6.
[/quote]

And who's fault is that ?
[/quote]

By 'current' I'm including N'gog, Lucas, Benayoun, N'gog etc - As they're in our current front 6.

As for who's fault it is that we didn't get to sign Barry and Keane? Dunno, tell me...
[/quote]

Well given we had our best season in the league I think you've got to credit Parry for not allowing the sale of Alonso on the cheap and buying Barry to play him out of position.

We'd have been worse last season had Rafa got his wish, and we're worse this year because he did.
[/quote]

Yes Ross, we've Rick to thank for getting us 82 points.

 

[Rosco]

He played his part Ryan.

You have to admit that, we were better than we might have been because Alonso was still here.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991873#msg991873 date=1258587831]
He played his part Ryan.

You have to admit that.
[/quote]

In the same way you're not at all one-sided when it comes to discussing Rafa?

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37249.msg991874#msg991874 date=1258587898]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=37249.msg991873#msg991873 date=1258587831]
He played his part Ryan.

You have to admit that.
[/quote]

In the same way you're not at all one-sided when it comes to discussing Rafa?
[/quote]

So you won't admit that stopping the sale of Alonso was a good idea ?