Pressing vs. Arsenal

[Frogfish]

Pretty miffed TBH that some people on here seem to think we didn't press vs. Arsenal. It's mystifying and you wonder what match they were watching. Our forwards & midfielders pressing was directly responsible for the pressure piled on the Arsenal defence that saw them fall apart with panicked & poor passing and clearances.

Here are four charts showing the pressing done by Milner, Lucas, Can and Firmino (top presser). If @King Binny or @studsup can find those from Benteke & Coutinho to complete our forwards & midfielders pressing stats vs. Arsenal that would be ace.

Great work by Anfield Index and GaGs ‏@_Gags_

 

[Mystic]

Those player pictures make me cringe, alot.

 

[keniget]

What counts as a "press"?

 

[dmishra]

A 'press' in my book is a collective press by one line of the midfield or the attack which restricts space for the opposition so much that they're forced to give it away. Not individual presses in isolation.

Individual 'presses' by players happen in every game. Using stats for those is to give no meaning and purpose to the phrase 'pressing game'.

We haven't played a pressing game for well over a year, and certainly haven't employed it even once this season.

 

[Frogfish]

Those player pictures make me cringe, alot.

Jesus Mystic. That's what you take away from those graphics ?

 

[Mystic]

Jesus Mystic. That's what you take away from those graphics ?

I never disagreed with you point in the first place, so this just confirms what I already thought 🙂

 

[jexykrodic]

What counts as a "press"?

That question looks like it's on whoosh territory.

 

[Frogfish]

A 'press' in my book is a collective press by one line of the midfield or the attack which restricts space for the opposition so much that they're forced to give it away. Not individual presses in isolation.

Individual 'presses' by players happen in every game. Using stats for those is to give no meaning and purpose to the phrase 'pressing game'.

We haven't played a pressing game for well over a year, and certainly haven't employed it even once this season.

That is just plain wrong. Where does it say those presses were in isolation ? They weren't, there was a clear press by our forwards and midfielders to close down their defence and midfielders, it wasn't manic, but it was a clear press (Firmino and Benteke from the front, Coutinho, Can and Milner behind them) and the results were positive and obvious. The team clearly tired in the second half contributing to Arsenal putting us under far more pressure.

 

[Mors]

We may of 'pressed' but we spent most of the 2nd half camped inside our half and in our box, so it didn't do us much good. It's all good and well this pressing, when it's in the opponents half and we've got the lions share of the possession in and around their box.

 

[Frogfish]

We may of 'pressed' but we spent most of the 2nd half camped inside our half and in our box, so it didn't do us much good. It's all good and well this pressing, when it's in the opponents half and we've got the lions share of the possession in and around their box.

Nobody presses when they have the lions share of the possession in and around their box 😉

 

[gkmacca]

There was a bit of pressing. Sort of on the scale of a small gentleman's tailor shop. At the absolute peak of a couple of seasons ago, it was collective, constant and gloriously suffocating. An opponent would get past one trio of players buzzing around him only to immediately be confronted by another trio. But that took about four or five months into the season to achieve, in terms of fitness. For the third game into this season, it was okay. No more, no less. It needs to improve and I'm sure it will.

 

[keniget]

I tend to side with dmish on this though I do think he's being a bit harsh.

I'm not sure that we have an effective pressing game as a team. We have a fair few players that work hard to close the opposition down (Coutinho in particular I think is underrated for his efforts in this respect) but it can be a bit mindless. Arsenal was an improvement and the team looked more cohesive than in the first two games. Hopefully we'll carry that forward and continue to improve.

 

[Frogfish]

Rodgers Post Match Arsenal (paraphrased) : "...the intensity of our pressing is very important."

Rodgers Post Match Bournemouth : "...our ability to press high up the pitch was good ..."

 

[Rosco]

A 'press' in my book is a collective press by one line of the midfield or the attack which restricts space for the opposition so much that they're forced to give it away. Not individual presses in isolation.

Individual 'presses' by players happen in every game. Using stats for those is to give no meaning and purpose to the phrase 'pressing game'.

We haven't played a pressing game for well over a year, and certainly haven't employed it even once this season.

I would agree with the above.

And it's why I asked the question in the other thread.

Pressing has become the buzz word over the past couple of years to an extent that you could be forgiven for thinking nobody ever thought of closing down someone with the ball before.

I mean we even had a song about it under Jack Charlton.

I missed the first 20 mins of the Arsenal game but it looked to me like we played pretty deep for the most part.

 

[Frogfish]

There was a bit of pressing. Sort of on the scale of a small gentleman's tailor shop. At the absolute peak of a couple of seasons ago, it was collective, constant and gloriously suffocating. An opponent would get past one trio of players buzzing around him only to immediately be confronted by another trio. But that took about four or five months into the season to achieve, in terms of fitness. For the third game into this season, it was okay. No more, no less. It needs to improve and I'm sure it will.

That is obviously very important. Statistically we had 80 presses during the game, 64 of which came in the first 30 minutes (we dominated the last 20 minutes before HT so obviously far less pressing) and in the second half Arsenal moved the ball far faster and with more precision and some of our players looked knackered. Our pressing is more controlled, less manic, but clearly it's something we are focusing on and trying to improve on last season .. and it's paying dividends.

 

[Hansern]

We were much higher up the pitch in the first half vs Arsenal. It resulted in several interceptions/tackles.
To say that our pressing game was non existent is just wrong. There is quite a difference this year compared to last season imho.

Firmino worked pretty hard although he got slated in the match thread for not doing anything defensively. The stats say otherwise. He could have been subbed even earlier though, he was running on nothing already a few minutes into the 2nd half.

 

[mark1975]

A 'press' in my book is a collective press by one line of the midfield or the attack which restricts space for the opposition so much that they're forced to give it away. Not individual presses in isolation.

Individual 'presses' by players happen in every game. Using stats for those is to give no meaning and purpose to the phrase 'pressing game'.

We haven't played a pressing game for well over a year, and certainly haven't employed it even once this season.

This is being a bit myopic and you've said yourself "in my book", it's a broad interpretation of the tactic. Pressing can also be pushing tight to players high up the pitch, in numbers, which is what we did. We didn't win it back and find ourselves isolated, we had a few players in and around the play. For instance on most occasions I recall Milner, Coutinho, Firmino and Benteke all capitalising on an individual press, by marking Arsenal players around the play to allow themselves to capitalise on any mistake.

It's not often I disagree with you and even when I do, you always make some good points anyway, but you're well wide of the mark on this.

 

[mark1975]

I would agree with the above.

And it's why I asked the question in the other thread.

Pressing has become the buzz word over the past couple of years to an extent that you could be forgiven for thinking nobody ever thought of closing down someone with the ball before.

I mean we even had a song about it under Jack Charlton.

I missed the first 20 mins of the Arsenal game but it looked to me like we played pretty deep for the most part.

Yes, but that would be on the assumption that you go into games with the same intensity and intent to close down. There's moving towards the player repeatedly to minimise their threat and there's being sharper and quicker to the play and maximising your ability to force mistakes. I agree it's become a bit of a buzz word, but it's fairly obvious when a team is pressing and when they're not. In fact, Monday is the prime example. In the first half we pressed high and forced errors, in the second half we ran out of steam and stood off the play to become more compact, which invited pressure.

 

[gkmacca]

Our forward line is the one that currently needs to press more. At present Benteke, especially, seems to pick and choose when to bother. It's probably mainly down to fitness, although he also seems to equate pressing with the chance to win the ball, and the point is that you need to press regardless of how strong that chance is. Rush was invaluable in that sense because he was so relentless that defenders, and the keeper, simply never relaxed in his presence and usually hurried their passes. Our forwards today need to learn to put in that shift.

 

[cloggypop]

This thread should be called The Pressing Question.

 

[the count]

This thread should be called The Pressing Question.

 

[Frogfish]

Our forward line is the one that currently needs to press more. At present Benteke, especially, seems to pick and choose when to bother. It's probably mainly down to fitness, although he also seems to equate pressing with the chance to win the ball, and the point is that you need to press regardless of how strong that chance is. Rush was invaluable in that sense because he was so relentless that defenders, and the keeper, simply never relaxed in his presence and usually hurried their passes. Our forwards today need to learn to put in that shift.

Whilst that is true that may also be due to playing under instructions. As has been well documented in the past, certain opposition players in the defence or midfield are identified as the targets, either because they are ponderous with distribution or because when under pressure their passing becomes inaccurate at best. Obviously pressuring someone who is calm under pressure and still able to distribute with precision will be less productive and tiring so then players may then be under instructions to attempt to block pass lines rather than apply a direct press on that player.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I think both sides could benefit from re-watching the first 45 minutes of the game, if you can find the time or interest to do so. With the anxiety, anticipation and excitement now eliminated, you might have new / different observations.

Here's the link for that. Bloodzeed HD quality FTW:
-- http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/2015/08/24/arsenal-vs-liverpool-highlights-full-match/#4

After watching that clip, I think dmish's observations of the lack of team pressing in the first half are mainly correct, though it was not zero.

I counted about 3 occasions which would qualify as team presses - e.g. one man (or two) gets on the opponent with the ball, while team mates either push hard against the possible recipients for a pass, or guard/attack the passing lanes radiating from the guy to his team mates. One of those presses was at about the 20th or 21st minute mark which led to Benteke getting the ball and being cleanly tackled by Coquelin right outside the box. On that occasion, we pressed Cazorla, who coughed it up under pressure and went down claiming a foul (quelle surprise). The other two occasions - we won the ball on one in our half and I think created a long ball to Benteke or Coutinho to attack, and on the other, in their half, they beat the press but their outlet pass was long and out to touch (or their guy was offside) and we took possession.

So, as far as pressing as a team goes - we didn't press as a team for the first half much, but neither did we not press at all.

Unrelated to this, regarding dmish's observations in the post-match thread breaking the first half into 2 blocks of 20/25 minutes, I see it somewhat differently. After re-watching the video, I'd say it breaks down like this instead:

First 10 minutes - we were under pressure, and this was the period when we looked likely to concede (and we did; lucky to get away there).
Next 10 minutes - drifting game
Next 10 minutes - we were now on top; two of those team presses I mentioned came about during this period IIRC (at least one of them did)
Next 5 minutes - drifting game
Next 10 minutes - we were back on top again but team pressing wasn't a feature here

Bellerin and Chambers were very poor when we were dominant, but not everything was due to them. Benteke, Coutinho, Firmino and Milner operated very smoothly during those periods with their runs at the opponents, passes and/or breaks from deep, and Arsenal's mental fragility just caused them to panic, as expected. Maybe we could have induced a longer state of shock with more aggressive team pressing, but this early in the season, with almost all 5 guys (including Can) being strangers to each other, the manager and the tactics at the club, I'm not really sure it'd be reasonable to expect them to repeat the days of 13/14.

I don't think we were ever in danger of conceding after the first 10 minutes; we looked very organized defensively, and while they had a few corners, we dealt with them well. We had to stretch for a couple of clearances (I think on the break usually), or had a couple of instances when the ball fell kindly for us due to an overweighted / skidding through pass or two. This is Arsenal we're playing - they're bound to test your nerves a few times with some of those. In the main, we had them under control for 35 minutes of the first 45, at the Emirates, which is excellent.

Then again, perhaps I'll watch the clip again later and have another completely different set of conclusions. 😉

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

Next thread, we will be discussing and analysing if we played a passing game, followed by 'Did Mignolet perform his duties as a goalie vs Arsenal ?'

 

[Dirkus_Circus]

We may of 'pressed' but we spent most of the 2nd half camped inside our half and in our box, so it didn't do us much good. It's all good and well this pressing, when it's in the opponents half and we've got the lions share of the possession in and around their box.

 

[Mystic]

This thread should be called The Pressing Question.

You're gonna be hard pressed to beat that title.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

Not impressed.

 

[Jack D Rips]

Would have been worse if the title had been "Depressing vs Arsenal"

 

[jexykrodic]

Has the matter been ironed out now?

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I think you'd need to demand and squeeze an answer from the media.