Pre Match - Spurs (A) - Sat 17:30

[binomial]

It was a serious question. I mean, I'm not completely sold on it but the argument in favour definitely makes sense. I was just interested in the argument against, and assumed you must have one.

It definitely doesn't make sense, not for anyone who's given it longer than 2 minutes thought.

So let me paint a scenario right here for you what you and that phony is endorsing....

In our next league game at Brighton Welbeck goes studs up on Szobo's shin......Szobo has to be subbed off to injury. We get a pen and Mo misses it. Welbeck stays on the pitch of course because of this bullshit new rule, goes on to score the winning goal and also because of this shitty new rule has no further punishment i.e is not suspended for the next 3 games.

Is this what you want in the game? Because I can assure you we'd have plenty like it.

In any case you can't just go abolishing old rules that've been in place since the very start because referee's are subjective on what is or isn't a red card, the subjectivity will still be there and you'll still have thousands of fans in uproar because they've lost a game over a dubious pen that was never a red card worthy foul in the first place. You're essentially going from 1 extreme idea to the other.

 

[Markeh]

I need to point out - allowing an old protocol to go through unchecked is what actually led to the Empire’s defeat at the Battle of Endor.

That and the VAR on Vader’s Star Destroyer that didn’t call the escape pod offside when it clearly was.

you’re going to need to refresh me on the first part, i have vague memories of someone landing on the planet using old codes or something?

 

[Richey]

Well, for a start I wasn't endorsing anything. I thought I made that pretty clear when I said 'I'm not signed up to it'. I was just asking.

The fact that it wouldn't change the poor refereeing is exactly the reason (one of them anyway) why I don't 'endorse' it. There'll still be just as many dodgy decisions.

However, just to use your scenario, let's say Welbeck gets sent off, 10 man Brighton shut up shop and the game grinds out to 0-0. That doesn't sound much fun either. If there was a penalty instead of a red card, at least we end up with a clear chance of winning rather than having to still create one.

It isn't gonna happen anyway, just thought it was interesting.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I think a range of forced substitutions, sin bins for 10 minutes and penalties for some class of fouls regardless of whether they are in the box or not, would be worth trialing out.

I also think the refs need to be encouraged to get the right decision, rather than what it seems like now being sticking with their first decision as much as possible. If they don't move to that, they may as well scrap VAR altogether, and just go back to human error.

 

[binomial]

Well, for a start I wasn't endorsing anything. I thought I made that pretty clear when I said 'I'm not signed up to it'. I was just asking.

The fact that it wouldn't change the poor refereeing is exactly the reason (one of them anyway) why I don't 'endorse' it. There'll still be just as many dodgy decisions.

However, just to use your scenario, let's say Welbeck gets sent off, 10 man Brighton shut up shop and the game grinds out to 0-0. That doesn't sound much fun either. If there was a penalty instead of a red card, at least we end up with a clear chance of winning rather than having to still create one.

It isn't gonna happen anyway, just thought it was interesting.

So how on one hand can you say "the argument in favour makes sense" then say "it wouldn't change the poor refereeing".

Doesn't matter if it grinds out to a 0-0, the point is Welbeck gets punished for his foul play...him being totally let off the hook is incomprehensible.

Plus there is no evidence that you're more likely to win a game being awarded a pen to win a game over having to play against 10 men.....unless it comes in the last 15-20 mins of the game. I'd much rather play against 10 for a half or longer.

Trent's already been booked, we're now in stoppage time holding onto a lead.....throw in to Liverpool, Trent takes 20 seconds to throw the ball before the ref blowing and awarding a 2nd yellow.......only there is no 2nd yellow is there? So are we just gonna hand the other team a pen?

 

[Markeh]

Imo there just needs to be incentive for officials to improve, be it bans or demotions and recognition and reward for correctness.

Sin bins and the rest are fine ideas but the officials can’t cope with what’s on their plates at the moment and it doesn’t remove the basic necessity for them to get the decisions correct in the first place, it’s just softening the impact of mistakes.

In theory i love VAR for offsides. A good offside trap is a beautiful thing and i think defenders should be rewarded for millimetre accurate offside decisions, they’ve trained hundreds of hours on it after all. Just automate the line drawing and remove the points of human error and we’ll be fine.

 

[peterhague]

So how on one hand can you say "the argument in favour makes sense" then say "it wouldn't change the poor refereeing".

Doesn't matter if it grinds out to a 0-0, the point is Welbeck gets punished for his foul play...him being totally let off the hook is incomprehensible.

Plus there is no evidence that you're more likely to win a game being awarded a pen to win a game over having to play against 10 men.....unless it comes in the last 15-20 mins of the game. I'd much rather play against 10 for a half or longer.

Trent's already been booked, we're now in stoppage time holding onto a lead.....throw in to Liverpool, Trent takes 20 seconds to throw the ball before the ref blowing and awarding a 2nd yellow.......only there is no 2nd yellow is there? So are we just gonna hand the other team a pen?

A penalty against his team punishes him just as much as being sent off does. In both cases, the team and not the player bears the brunt of the punishment.

In both cases there is no reason the punishment of the player cannot be extended by a suspension of X number of games.

 

[Frogfish]

Yesterday has to signify the end of VAR and PGMOL, the only thing they were good for or so we thought was clearing up these marginal offsides.....they have now proven they cannot be trusted and as the likes of Redknapp and Shearer, we don't know how long this bullshit has been going on for.

Ridiculous. It's not going away - far far too much money invested and too many powerful interested parties. So you better suck it up.

It'll get fixed sooner or later, likely by AI working in conjunction with humans to reduce human error.

 

[Richey]

So how on one hand can you say "the argument in favour makes sense" then say "it wouldn't change the poor refereeing".

Doesn't matter if it grinds out to a 0-0, the point is Welbeck gets punished for his foul play...him being totally let off the hook is incomprehensible.

Plus there is no evidence that you're more likely to win a game being awarded a pen to win a game over having to play against 10 men.....unless it comes in the last 15-20 mins of the game. I'd much rather play against 10 for a half or longer.

Trent's already been booked, we're now in stoppage time holding onto a lead.....throw in to Liverpool, Trent takes 20 seconds to throw the ball before the ref blowing and awarding a 2nd yellow.......only there is no 2nd yellow is there? So are we just gonna hand the other team a pen?

The argument was that red card can ruin a potentially great game of football. That is undeniably true. That makes sense. I don't like it when this happens.

Getting rid of red cards and awarding penalties instead would still put that power in the hands of terrible referees. That is also true.

So it would help to solve the first issue but not the second.

Welbeck wouldn't be let off for his foul play would he? It is likely he'd be responsible for his side going a goal down.

 

[binomial]

The argument was that red card can ruin a potentially great game of football. That is undeniably true. That makes sense. I don't like it when this happens.

Getting rid of red cards and awarding penalties instead would still put that power in the hands of terrible referees. That is also true.

So it would help to solve the first issue but not the second.

Welbeck wouldn't be let off for his foul play would he? It is likely he'd be responsible for his side going a goal down.

If it's early in the game then of course it ruins it somewhat but if it's totally justified then what complaints can be had?

Also this would only encourage players to make more deliberate foul play, because in the back of their minds they'd know they themselves wouldn't be punished for it.

& you're still gonna pick which games it ruins for you......I guarentee you'll be wishing red cards were never abolished if it were Utd or City making a dangerous challenge early, conceding the pen yet still coming back to win a game. Because 11 v 11 City can score 2-3 goals in 1 half of football, if it's 10 v 11 all a sudden you're scrapping to find an equaliser.

 

[Frogfish]

The argument was that red card can ruin a potentially great game of football. That is undeniably true. That makes sense. I don't like it when this happens.

Getting rid of red cards and awarding penalties instead would still put that power in the hands of terrible referees. That is also true.

So it would help to solve the first issue but not the second.

Welbeck wouldn't be let off for his foul play would he? It is likely he'd be responsible for his side going a goal down.

I have to side with Bino here. If Welbeck is still on the pitch he could conceivably end up scoring the winning goal and it's still 11 vs 11. And we could miss the spot kick (yes that would be our mistake but it shouldn't even be a possibility, in effect it would mean the offending team weren't punished at all).

Sin bins is where we should go next. It works great in rugby and it gives refs a middle option between yellow and red.

 

[binomial]

Ridiculous. It's not going away - far far too much money invested and too many powerful interested parties. So you better suck it up.

It'll get fixed sooner or later, likely by AI working in conjunction with humans to reduce human error.

So we're gonna carry on wasting away money on this shit despite none of them having a clue between them how to use it? Despite over 2/3's of fans wanting this piece of crap disposed of? It's not worth it.

Either make the whole thing automated or we'll piss all over it then see what their response it to fixing it is.

Is VAR really even technology if you still require human intervention to interpret and freeze the exact moment a pass is made then another buffoon to draw a straight line from shoulder or heel or whatever to distinguish on or off?

Redknapp and Shearer said it last night, this cannot be trusted in the slightest anymore even with offsides....& I do wonder just how many other offside decisions they've got wrong. Absolute shambles.

 

[Frogfish]

So we're gonna carry on wasting away money on this shit despite none of them having a clue between them how to use it? Despite over 2/3's of fans wanting this piece of crap disposed of? It's not worth it.

Either make the whole thing automated or we'll piss all over it then see what their response it to fixing it is.

Yep. We are. Until they get it right. Get used to it, it's definitely never going away no matter how much fans moan or errors the officials make (still infinitely less than in the 'good old days'). What short memories people have.

 

[Red Astaire]

I have to side with Bino here. If Welbeck is still on the pitch he could conceivably end up scoring the winning goal and it's still 11 vs 11. And we could miss the spot kick (yes that would be our mistake but it shouldn't even be a possibility, in effect it would mean the offending team weren't punished at all).

Sin bins is where we should go next. It works great in rugby and it gives refs a middle option between yellow and red.

It will NEVER happen but I do agree. Sin bins would be an interesting thing. I think the pertinent point is that VAR keeps throwing up more questions as opposed to definitive answers. 'Human error'........ That's a tough one to swallow given the promises that the introduction of VAR promised. Oh well - Nothing I or we can do about it apart from lament.

 

[Markeh]

I have to side with Bino here. If Welbeck is still on the pitch he could conceivably end up scoring the winning goal and it's still 11 vs 11. And we could miss the spot kick (yes that would be our mistake but it shouldn't even be a possibility, in effect it would mean the offending team weren't punished at all).

Sin bins is where we should go next. It works great in rugby and it gives refs a middle option between yellow and red.

Do you have any faith that they’ll not just use the sin bin as a complete cop out for big decisions?

 

[binomial]

Yep. We are. Until they get it right. Get used to it, it's definitely never going away no matter how much fans moan or errors the officials make (still infinitely less than in the 'good old days'). What short memories people have.

It's been 5 fucking years.

What makes you so sure it's here to stay? I'm sure the fans/players/managers disapproval is universal on this across Europe, only so long FIFA can turn a blind eye to this.

Clubs need to call for meetings. Enough is enough.

 

[Frogfish]

Do you have any faith that they’ll not just use the sin bin as a complete cop out for big decisions?

None. But it's better than the alternative (carry on as we are). It's a great feature of rugby now - just copy it.

 

[Frogfish]

It's been 5 fucking years.

What makes you so sure it's here to stay? I'm sure the fans/players/managers disapproval is universal on this across Europe, only so long FIFA can turn a blind eye to this.

Clubs need to call for meetings. Enough is enough.

Money, money, money, money. And of course a much lower error rate despite the high profile ones such as ours. Oh and did I mention M O N E Y?

Oh and the 'universal' bit? Talking out your arse mate.

 

[Red Astaire]

None. But it's better than the alternative (carry on as we are). It's a great feature of rugby now - just copy it.

It really is. It would be a seismic shift in the dynamic of a game that has been played largely the same for 150 years. I can think of a few rule changes that worked tho. Remember the days when you could pass back to your keeper and they could just pick it up? That seems absurd now.

 

[Frogfish]

It really is. It would be a seismic shift in the dynamic of a game that has been played largely the same for 150 years. I can think of a few rule changes that worked tho. Remember the days when you could pass back to your keeper and they could just pick it up? That seems absurd now.

Innovation. The game isn't same from one decade to the next, the pace of change proliferates and rules and methods of control have to keep abreast. I'd be interested to know when Yellow and Red cards were introduced?

 

[the count]

 

[rurikbird]

[article]Liverpool Football Club acknowledges PGMOL’s admission of their failures last night. It is clear that the correct application of the laws of the game did not occur, resulting in sporting integrity being undermined.
We fully accept the pressures that match officials work under but these pressures are supposed to be alleviated, not exacerbated, by the existence and implementation of VAR.
It is therefore unsatisfactory that sufficient time was not afforded to allow the correct decision to be made and that there was no subsequent intervention.
That such failings have already been categorised as “significant human error” is also unacceptable. Any and all outcomes should be established only by the review and with full transparency.
This is vital for the reliability of future decision-making as it applies to all clubs with learnings being used to make improvements to processes in order to ensure this kind of situation cannot occur again.
In the meantime, we will explore the range of options available, given the clear need for escalation and resolution.
[/article]

 

[Hansern]

I like it!

 

[Beamrider]

I totally get the respect the referee thing. I watch other sports and you never see the levels of dissent you get in football, not even close.
But for fuck's sake, they need to stop getting things so wrong so often.
And the idea that VAR thought it was better to let an obviously wrong decision on Diaz's goal slide, rather than break their protocols about the restart to make sure the right decision was given, is beyond ridiculous.
They need a new protocol for sendings off for two yellows. When the second yellow is given, the ref should be told to review both decisions on screen to decide if the overall effect is right if VAR thinks that one or both of the cards is wrong. The idea that only a straight red is subject to review is ridiculous, especially when both yellows can be wrong and the sending off still stands.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Maybe it's time to give a review or two to each side?

 

[peterhague]

If it's early in the game then of course it ruins it somewhat but if it's totally justified then what complaints can be had?

Also this would only encourage players to make more deliberate foul play, because in the back of their minds they'd know they themselves wouldn't be punished for it.

& you're still gonna pick which games it ruins for you......I guarentee you'll be wishing red cards were never abolished if it were Utd or City making a dangerous challenge early, conceding the pen yet still coming back to win a game. Because 11 v 11 City can score 2-3 goals in 1 half of football, if it's 10 v 11 all a sudden you're scrapping to find an equaliser.

How can it ever be justified to ruin a game of football in order to punish a player and his team? The ruining of the game is a big problem every time it happens and intelligent people should be interested in trying to avoid it.

It would not incentivise reckless play because the punishment (a goal against) would still fall on the player in the same way that a red card does - he is made to feel responsible for the direct harm that his team suffers.

Your last point actually argues in favour of my idea, in that you're recognising what a hugely disproportionate punishment a red card is, which is equivalent to the fact that it also ruins the game: the game is ruined BECAUSE it's so hard to recover from!

 

[Beamrider]

Maybe it's time to give a review or two to each side?

It's worth a try. If they're going to add on half an hour's stoppage time every game then they can hardly argue there's no time for it.

 

[peterhague]

I have to side with Bino here. If Welbeck is still on the pitch he could conceivably end up scoring the winning goal and it's still 11 vs 11. And we could miss the spot kick (yes that would be our mistake but it shouldn't even be a possibility, in effect it would mean the offending team weren't punished at all).

Sin bins is where we should go next. It works great in rugby and it gives refs a middle option between yellow and red.

What would be so heinous about that situation anyway? Things equivalent to that happen all the time already: eg player can concede a penalty, penalty is missed, then same player scores winning goal. How is your scenario any different? Has the team that conceded the pen not been punished at all in that situation - presumably you think so given that that is your conclusion about the exactly analogous situation you object to?

 

[Jürgen4PM]

It's worth a try. If they're going to add on half an hour's stoppage time every game then they can hardly argue there's no time for it.

I wonder if it would allow the officials to get back to allowing the game to flow a little more and put the onus onto the managers to raise a review on a bad tackle or handball etc etc

Might actually take a little pressure off of them ....

 

[Markeh]

Maybe it's time to give a review or two to each side?

I knew this would be suggested and it’s another good idea but we can’t be going down that route. It’s another path to slowing the game down and you just know dickhead managers will have tactical reviews at the worst times to disrupt the match if they’re unused. This would be implemented just because of shitty officials and it’ll turn into something we hate too.