Poll [Poll] Firmino - Holgate incident update

[Dirty Sanchez]

But it's once again a he said/she said scenario

And surely its 2 separate cases? Ones the firmino one which clears him, the other is the"is holgate a liar" one, which on probabilities you can't claim he lied?

Fabio, I think that @Judge Jules is trying to say that the issue of Holgate's "believability" is seriously called into question because he has a clear, tangible motive to have made up the allegation. He had just committed a foul that would, under normal circumstances, have resulted in a straight red card. You can easily demonstrate that he has a motive in that moment to say something to "save himself" from being sent off. In the absence of any evidence to suggest that Firmino did in fact use a racist term, one is left to conclude only that Holgate's believeability is seriously in doubt.

 

[Fabio]

Fabio, I think that @Judge Jules is trying to say that the issue of Holgate's "believability" is seriously called into question because he has a clear, tangible motive to have made up the allegation. He had just committed a foul that would, under normal circumstances, have resulted in a straight red card. You can easily demonstrate that he has a motive in that moment to say something to "save himself" from being sent off. In the absence of any evidence to suggest that Firmino did in fact use a racist term, one is left to conclude only that Holgate's believeability is seriously in doubt.

It's a bold leap though. I don't necessarily agree with it

But I'm leaving it. I got a bit too invested with this past time

 

[dantes]

Well there it is, who else but jay dickhead rodriguez, finally when we have the FA truly fucked between a rock and a hard place this retarded little patsy hands them a free out on a silver platter. Cunt.

 

[tombrown]

So Jay Rodriguez has been charged after an incident that occurred on January 13th. Meanwhile the FA still haven't decided whether or not to charge Firmino for an incident that occurred on January 5th.

In both instances they needed to read the referee's report and statements from the two players involved, so why does it take at least 8 days longer to make a decision on Firmino?

 

[Judge Jules]

Because they know there's no evidence to support Holgate's garbage accusation but they're afraid of not looking PC if they say so.

 

[Fabio]

Because they know there's no evidence to support Holgate's garbage accusation but they're afraid of not looking PC if they say so.

Yeah, they don't know how to broach this one at all.

Arse has well and truly gone by them

 

[tombrown]

and on another, only slightly related, rant - why does Troy Deeney have no action taken against him for flipping the finger, with both hands, at Chelsea fans, when Suarez got a one match ban for doing it, with only one hand, to Palace fans?

Are the FA trying to tell us that the plastic cunts deserve it more ... that makes too much sense

Or is it OK for English players to do it, but we just cant tolerate Johnny foreigner doing it?

 

[Rosco]

And you're making, as you have from the beginning, an assumption in favour of Holgate's believability which is undeserved. The investigation could go as you describe, but (a) that's no good reason not to carry out the investigation in the first place and (b) as this is a civil matter the standard of proof would NOT be "beyond reasonable doubt" but "on the balance of probabilities". With two conflicting sworn testimonies the FA would have to decide which it believed on the balance of probabilities, and it would be simple enough for the FA to do that by comparing the words Firmino used with what Holgate claimed he heard.

You're forgetting the ref who was in the middle

 

[Fabio]

You're forgetting the ref who was in the middle

Get him to do an oath too

 

[Dave G]

Have the FA paid West Ham to sign Evra for the remainder of the season so they can call him as a surprise witness who was sat in the front row of the stand and heard every word clearly.

 

[Ryan]

Dreamy.

Can we bring Paddy back just for the facepalm drop?

 

[Mugsy]

Holgate was very clever here ,he knew he was about to be booked or even sent off, he did not know what firmino said but took the opportunity to divert the referees attention and make it difficult for the ref to book him.

he should have been booked ,he committed an intentional foul, endangering an opponent and even the crowd

then he has used the race card to hide behind, as we all know there is no evidence against Firmino

Holgate should be punished for the original foul and wasteing everybody's time over this incident

why has the FA taken so long to investigateing this , they hoping it will be mostly forgotten and when the do nothing it will not receive much press

 

[tombrown]

Holgate was very clever here ,he knew he was about to be booked or even sent off, he did not know what firmino said but took the opportunity to divert the referees attention and make it difficult for the ref to book him.

That is just speculation .. it may be true, but it may be that Holgate did hear something. There was a point, just before he reacted, that Firmino's moth was not visible on camera, and it could have been then that something was said. I'd like to believe that he did not say anything untoward and Holgate misheard, or even made it up, but no one can categorically state that.

TBH if people who claim racism are suddenly bombarded with criticism & claims they are doing it to just divert attention (and, worse still, a trawl of their twitter history to find something inappropriate they said when they were a kid), then it serves as a deterrent to future potential victims to report racist abuse (like Brewster). Yes, its possible some unscrupulous people will use the racism card when not warranted, but I think the lesser of two evils is to give the supposed "victims" the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean we accept their story without question, but it does mean that we shouldn't be accusing & abusing them, when we do not, and cannot, know the full truth.

If an investigation finds categorically that Holgate lied to try & cover himself, then fine - go to town on him, but until then hold fire.

 

[Holle]

'Clever'?

He's a lying cheating arsehole.

 

[Judge Jules]

That is just speculation .. it may be true, but it may be that Holgate did hear something. There was a point, just before he reacted, that Firmino's moth was not visible on camera, and it could have been then that something was said. I'd like to believe that he did not say anything untoward and Holgate misheard, or even made it up, but no one can categorically state that.

TBH if people who claim racism are suddenly bombarded with criticism & claims they are doing it to just divert attention (and, worse still, a trawl of their twitter history to find something inappropriate they said when they were a kid), then it serves as a deterrent to future potential victims to report racist abuse (like Brewster). Yes, its possible some unscrupulous people will use the racism card when not warranted, but I think the lesser of two evils is to give the supposed "victims" the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean we accept their story without question, but it does mean that we shouldn't be accusing & abusing them, when we do not, and cannot, know the full truth.

If an investigation finds categorically that Holgate lied to try & cover himself, then fine - go to town on him, but until then hold fire.

A halfway serious look at Evra's record, either by the FA or by Suarez' incompetent representative, would have discovered the video (it wasn't hard to find) which shows Evra openly hollering the N-word into a hotel courtyard, despite the fact that he told the Suarez kangaroo court he would never use it. It would also have reminded the FA that their own procedures had branded him a liar some time previously when he got into a very similar spat with a Chelsea groundsman.

It's rare for people bringing claims of racial discrimination to evoke the kind of reaction Holgate's allegation has produced. That's happened because of the specific circs.of this individual case and I don't see any reason to suppose it risks becoming widespread.

Neither party in such a case should be given the benefit of any doubt. The matter should be investigated properly on its own merits without ANY presumption in favour of either side, or the whole process is tainted. It cannot be right to misuse what have to be even-handed enquiry processes for the purpose of social engineering.

 

[dantes]

Hahhahah you all have disturbing amounts of faith in this 'investigation'. There is literally no point waiting for it to happen and all that due process crap, because it will be bullshit, biased, flawed, superficial and pathetic. Analysing the circumstances yourself, looking at the footage, the reactions, and making your own judgement is orders of magnitude more thorough than anything the FA will do. The idea we have to reserve and defer our judgement until they make findings is laughable.

 

[Judge Jules]

It's not a matter of having confidence in the FA's investigation, dantes - I wouldn't have confidence in that lot's ability to sit the right way round on the khazi. But the procedures are there and will take place whether one likes them or not, so the key (IMO of course) is to try and see that they have at least a semblance of fairness.

 

[dantes]

It's not a matter of having confidence in the FA's investigation, dantes - I wouldn't have confidence in that lot's ability to sit the right way round on the khazi. But the procedures are there and will take place whether one likes them or not, so the key (IMO of course) is to try and see that they have at least a semblance of fairness.

The problem with that is that right now, today, there are many indications that Holgate is a lying cunt. If you put it out their for discussion/abuse now, those indications are easily ignored under the guise of "let's wait for the FA and not prejudge the process". Then a few months later once the FA will reach some retarded finding which obviously has not even look at whether or not Holgate lied, then you try again to discuss/abuse and guess what, those indications are again ignored under the guise of "the FA never made that finding, so it's time to shut up, move on".

So Holgate never has to answer for what he did at any time, because at all times he has the 'process' to hide behind. All I'm saying is ignore the process it doesn't matter, and just have at him, fire at will.

 

[Fabio]

That is just speculation .. it may be true, but it may be that Holgate did hear something. There was a point, just before he reacted, that Firmino's moth was not visible on camera, and it could have been then that something was said. I'd like to believe that he did not say anything untoward and Holgate misheard, or even made it up, but no one can categorically state that.

TBH if people who claim racism are suddenly bombarded with criticism & claims they are doing it to just divert attention (and, worse still, a trawl of their twitter history to find something inappropriate they said when they were a kid), then it serves as a deterrent to future potential victims to report racist abuse (like Brewster). Yes, its possible some unscrupulous people will use the racism card when not warranted, but I think the lesser of two evils is to give the supposed "victims" the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean we accept their story without question, but it does mean that we shouldn't be accusing & abusing them, when we do not, and cannot, know the full truth.

If an investigation finds categorically that Holgate lied to try & cover himself, then fine - go to town on him, but until then hold fire.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

This was my previous point. The timing of the allegation is critical. It occurred right after Holgate committed a red card offense. In the absence of any evidence to suggest that Firmino used a racial epithet, one can only conclude that it was an attempt to create controversy and avoid the red card that otherwise would have been given. You cannot assume that something inappropriate was said, just because Holgate "may have thought he heard something" - because there is absolutely no evidence for that. What someone thought happened is totally irrelevant. What remains is that Holgate pushed Firmino over the side barrier and knew he was in trouble. If this whole charade doesn't end with some punitive action against Holgate, then the FA has absolutely not a shred of credibility left (and it's not much left there in the first place to be fair.)

 

[Fabio]

This was my previous point. The timing of the allegation is critical. It occurred right after Holgate committed a red card offense. In the absence of any evidence to suggest that Firmino used a racial epithet, one can only conclude that it was an attempt to create controversy and avoid the red card that otherwise would have been given. You cannot assume that Holgate "may have thought he heard something" because there is no evidence for that. What someone thought happened is totally irrelevant. What remains is that Holgate pushed Firmino over the side barrier and knew he was in trouble. If this whole charade doesn't end with some punitive action against Holgate, then the FA has absolutely not a shred of credibility left (and it's not much left there in the first place to be fair.)

But the next logical step after a foul isn't to make a racist allegation. Firmino was squaring up to him and distracting the ref enough.

I just don't think it's the only conclusion anyone can come up with

 

[dantes]

But the next logical step after a foul isn't to make a racist allegation. Firmino was squaring up to him and distracting the ref enough.

I just don't think it's the only conclusion anyone can come up with

His words to the referee after he got shut down were along the lines of "I thought that's what I heard". Someone who genuinely misheard racist abuse would never ever utter such words. However, someone who realised the referee heard everything and was in a position to deny the allegation, is exactly who would think to fall back upon oh sorry that's what I thought I heard.

 

[Judge Jules]

Quite. It isn't a matter of logic - it's street survival instinct pure and simple.

 

[dantes]

The logical treatment of hearing is you did hear something or you did not hear something. There is no such thing as I thought I heard something, not unless your memory capacity is less than 5 seconds, which in fairness is perhaps an alternative logical explanation given that he's a footballer.

 

[kingjulian]

Fabio as usual is arguing the "first we must look at what we have done" line...

There is the concept of being fair, and then there is the concept of always believing we have fucked up even when there is the slightest element of doubt.

I always find people who think the latter are the easiest people to manage, if you were a manager.

 

[manwithnoname]

Fabio as usual is arguing the "first we must look at what we have done" line...

There is the concept of being fair, and then there is the concept of always believing we have fucked up even when there is the slightest element of doubt.

I always find people who think the latter are the easiest people to manage, if you were a manager.

A football manager? Or any type of manager? Does this rule of thumb extend to any managerial position? Are you Fabio's manager?

 

[Jack D Rips]

It's the brief moment of time when Firmino's face is obscured that worries me. Not that I think he used racial language, but that the FA in their "wisdom" will use it to conclude that something must have been said.

 

[tombrown]

The point is that no one on here actually knows exactly what happened, but there are some folks who are making their mind up & using it to suggest Holgate was using the race card to cover his tracks. Some others (mostly from outside LFC) are jumping to the opposite conclusion that Firmino must have racially abused him. Both are invalid at the moment, as no one (with the possible exceptions of Firmino, Holgate & the referee) really knows the truth.

Oh, and BTW, I have no faith in the FA investigation, but that doesn't mean I should jump to my own conclusions to fit the story which is most palatable to me as a Liverpool fan.

What would have been the reaction if Rhian Brewster's revelations of racist abuse had been met with folks saying that he was just using the race card to cover up for his own failings, or people publicising that he once told his mate at primary school that he thought the head master was "a bit bent"

 

[Fabio]

Fabio as usual is arguing the "first we must look at what we have done" line...

There is the concept of being fair, and then there is the concept of always believing we have fucked up even when there is the slightest element of doubt.

I always find people who think the latter are the easiest people to manage, if you were a manager.

I don't think we've fucked up. I don't think firmino was racist

That doesn't immediately mean I think holgate was lying

 

[Fabio]

Are you Fabio's manager?

Hope not, she's a fucking cunt who's thick