Only because they're a bunch of shiny-eyed, happy clapping, day-tripping cunts who want a "big night out" at the Nou Camp
YOU"VE NEVER EVEN BEEN IN A FINAL
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Only because they're a bunch of shiny-eyed, happy clapping, day-tripping cunts who want a "big night out" at the Nou Camp
YOU"VE NEVER EVEN BEEN IN A FINAL
That was exactly my point but there is also the fact that we have 9 games to go and if City were back with the rest then there'd be four teams fighting for the title and we'd be right in the thick of it. Why does Dreamy want to give it to Mourinho with 9 games left to play ? Or is that a stupid question.
And of course Barney Ronay is a must read. Absolutely hits the nail on the head in his argument, refusing the whole false "style vs result" dichotomy and instead correctly pointing out that from purely pragmatic result-oriented perspective, the way Mourinho has been setting his teams up is wrong, unless you're in charge of Porto.
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There was a slightly ghostly moment in the second half at Old Trafford as Manchester United were euthanised from the Champions League knockout stages, a sense of worlds colliding, timelines crossed.
Wissam Ben Yedder had just eased the ball into the corner of David de Gea’s net to make the score 1-0 on the night. As the Sevilla players romped in front of their away support and the Spanish radio commentator broke out of his “gol, gol” chant to shout “ON FIRE ON FIRE” a wiry black-clad figure could be seen sprinting down the touchline, fists pumping.
It was tempting to blink a little at this ghost of Old Trafford, rattling its chains, howling at the portal doors, breaking though, just for a moment, into our world. Like all good cinematic ghosts it seemed to be trying to communicate something: desperation, excitement, the need for United’s players to regroup. And beyond that a sense of something more profound being lost than just a quarter-final spot at the hands of a balanced and deserving Sevilla.
Naturally there were painful echoes of that famous sprint down the same touchline 14 years ago, back when the world was still young, the Mourinho hair a chestnut bouffant, and when Porto’s young manager was announcing his arrival as a Champions League force. Rather than, as on this occasion, his departure.
It will be tempting to resist the cliched circularity of those two sprints, bookends on the José supremacy. But the facts are hard to argue with. And the facts say that when it comes to the real cutting edge of European club football Mourinho is pretty much cooked, his best moments – Inter, Porto – already yellowing at the edges, marked by the baggy gear and dated grooming of a world that has now passed.
As of Tuesday night it is almost exactly four years since Mourinho last managed a club to victory in the Champions League knockout stages. In his past 10 knockout games with United and Chelsea he has two wins and five low-score draws.
Look a bit closer and even those two moments of triumph didn’t really point anywhere, the last one the ambush of Paris Saint-Germain at Stamford Bridge, when a late airborne siege turned a tie Chelsea were losing. The other was Didier Drogba’s return to Chelsea with Galatasaray, when a cunningly mawkish welcome back ceremony seemed to spook the visitors and Chelsea went 1-0 up after four minutes.
Look even further to his last year at Real Madrid and it is unsurprising Mourinho was so keen to dwell this week on his elimination of United at Old Trafford in 2013. That 2-1 victory, almost exactly five years ago, was the last time he oversaw an away win in the knockout stages. Even then Madrid were going out before Nani was sent off.
At the end of which, under the De Boer formula, you could make a case, factoring in millions spent and clubs managed (all three winners in recent years, just not under him) that Mourinho is unusually bad at negotiating the sharp end of this competition. That he is, with two wins in 10 and everything from funds to pedigree in his favour, the worst manager in the past 10 years of the Champions League knockout stages.
Too much? Probably. But the real issue is not his place in the hierarchy of knockout failure. Instead it is Mourinho’s dogged persistence with an approach that, frankly, no longer works at this level. This was another startling element to Tuesday night. Play the game again, play on for five hours into the night and United still wouldn’t have looked like winning. The obstacle here wasn’t details or form, but a fixed-gear defensive approach in a must-win game at home to the fifth-best team in Spain.
This is not to suggest Mourinho’s methods are failing at United. Winning defensive football is still winning football. United are better than when he came, and will be better still in a year.
It is more a question of whether Mourinho still has the will and the methods to cut it in one-off, fine-point knockout games against the very best.
Right now he appears to be doing what he did at Porto and Inter on such occasions, looking to attack an opponent’s strengths rather than its weaknesses, to win by nullifying space rather than using it to create. There is an element of the Peter Principle in this. Mourinho got so good at managing underdog teams and wringing the best out of B-list players he was allowed to manage overdog teams where his tactics no longer fit, with A-list players too good to carry out his methods with unquestioning zeal.
There have of course been wonderful attacking Mourinho teams in the past. That Madrid starting XI that beat United five years ago contained Mesut Özil, Ángel Di María, Cristiano Ronaldo and Gonzalo Higuaín. The problem is that as Mourinho has retreated into his own mathematical pleasure in solidity and defensive control the world has gone the other way. And the evidence suggests it is not possible to win a Champions League in this manner now, just as a 0-0 draw away from home is no longer an advantageous result with high-scoring games more common.
The question is whether Mourinho has it in him to adapt a little, to build a next-stage United team around some key element of creative chemistry, a team that can grow to fill the spaces rather than crouching back behind its guard. For all the snarking negativity there are obvious positives. Even in defeat the sight of local talent on the pitch is heartening. Romelu Lukaku was often horribly isolated against Sevilla but he was also United’s best player.
Mourinho will get more time and money to gloss this team – but not that much more. Manchester United is a machine made for winning, a commercial-sporting juggernaut defined in part by its progress in Europe. If Mourinho has hit a buffer here then buying another Sánchez, another Pogba, won’t solve a basic issue of methodology, the point where defensive control becomes a more risky hand, less likely to bring victory than trusting his team to play in those tighter moments with a little winning freedom.
=============
There was a slightly ghostly moment in the second half at Old Trafford as Manchester United were euthanised from the Champions League knockout stages, a sense of worlds colliding, timelines crossed.
Wissam Ben Yedder had just eased the ball into the corner of David de Gea’s net to make the score 1-0 on the night. As the Sevilla players romped in front of their away support and the Spanish radio commentator broke out of his “gol, gol” chant to shout “ON FIRE ON FIRE” a wiry black-clad figure could be seen sprinting down the touchline, fists pumping.
It was tempting to blink a little at this ghost of Old Trafford, rattling its chains, howling at the portal doors, breaking though, just for a moment, into our world. Like all good cinematic ghosts it seemed to be trying to communicate something: desperation, excitement, the need for United’s players to regroup. And beyond that a sense of something more profound being lost than just a quarter-final spot at the hands of a balanced and deserving Sevilla.
Naturally there were painful echoes of that famous sprint down the same touchline 14 years ago, back when the world was still young, the Mourinho hair a chestnut bouffant, and when Porto’s young manager was announcing his arrival as a Champions League force. Rather than, as on this occasion, his departure.
It will be tempting to resist the cliched circularity of those two sprints, bookends on the José supremacy. But the facts are hard to argue with. And the facts say that when it comes to the real cutting edge of European club football Mourinho is pretty much cooked, his best moments – Inter, Porto – already yellowing at the edges, marked by the baggy gear and dated grooming of a world that has now passed.
As of Tuesday night it is almost exactly four years since Mourinho last managed a club to victory in the Champions League knockout stages. In his past 10 knockout games with United and Chelsea he has two wins and five low-score draws.
Look a bit closer and even those two moments of triumph didn’t really point anywhere, the last one the ambush of Paris Saint-Germain at Stamford Bridge, when a late airborne siege turned a tie Chelsea were losing. The other was Didier Drogba’s return to Chelsea with Galatasaray, when a cunningly mawkish welcome back ceremony seemed to spook the visitors and Chelsea went 1-0 up after four minutes.
Look even further to his last year at Real Madrid and it is unsurprising Mourinho was so keen to dwell this week on his elimination of United at Old Trafford in 2013. That 2-1 victory, almost exactly five years ago, was the last time he oversaw an away win in the knockout stages. Even then Madrid were going out before Nani was sent off.
At the end of which, under the De Boer formula, you could make a case, factoring in millions spent and clubs managed (all three winners in recent years, just not under him) that Mourinho is unusually bad at negotiating the sharp end of this competition. That he is, with two wins in 10 and everything from funds to pedigree in his favour, the worst manager in the past 10 years of the Champions League knockout stages.
Too much? Probably. But the real issue is not his place in the hierarchy of knockout failure. Instead it is Mourinho’s dogged persistence with an approach that, frankly, no longer works at this level. This was another startling element to Tuesday night. Play the game again, play on for five hours into the night and United still wouldn’t have looked like winning. The obstacle here wasn’t details or form, but a fixed-gear defensive approach in a must-win game at home to the fifth-best team in Spain.
This is not to suggest Mourinho’s methods are failing at United. Winning defensive football is still winning football. United are better than when he came, and will be better still in a year.
It is more a question of whether Mourinho still has the will and the methods to cut it in one-off, fine-point knockout games against the very best.
Right now he appears to be doing what he did at Porto and Inter on such occasions, looking to attack an opponent’s strengths rather than its weaknesses, to win by nullifying space rather than using it to create. There is an element of the Peter Principle in this. Mourinho got so good at managing underdog teams and wringing the best out of B-list players he was allowed to manage overdog teams where his tactics no longer fit, with A-list players too good to carry out his methods with unquestioning zeal.
There have of course been wonderful attacking Mourinho teams in the past. That Madrid starting XI that beat United five years ago contained Mesut Özil, Ángel Di María, Cristiano Ronaldo and Gonzalo Higuaín. The problem is that as Mourinho has retreated into his own mathematical pleasure in solidity and defensive control the world has gone the other way. And the evidence suggests it is not possible to win a Champions League in this manner now, just as a 0-0 draw away from home is no longer an advantageous result with high-scoring games more common.
The question is whether Mourinho has it in him to adapt a little, to build a next-stage United team around some key element of creative chemistry, a team that can grow to fill the spaces rather than crouching back behind its guard. For all the snarking negativity there are obvious positives. Even in defeat the sight of local talent on the pitch is heartening. Romelu Lukaku was often horribly isolated against Sevilla but he was also United’s best player.
Mourinho will get more time and money to gloss this team – but not that much more. Manchester United is a machine made for winning, a commercial-sporting juggernaut defined in part by its progress in Europe. If Mourinho has hit a buffer here then buying another Sánchez, another Pogba, won’t solve a basic issue of methodology, the point where defensive control becomes a more risky hand, less likely to bring victory than trusting his team to play in those tighter moments with a little winning freedom.
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Redcafe:
See the same culprits with their strange fawning over any of Joses press conferences even when he's had a total mare or is lying through his teeth to deflect blame from his own shortcomings.
He looked like he'd cracked IMO.. cool calm and collected he was not, and whilst passion is good.. it's only good if you're talking about your team passionately and saying look I fecked up but I believe in this team etc instead it looked like a man desperate to defend his performances with what he now deems an unworthy squad which he's done miracles with. It's complete and utter horseshit.
Have City benefitted from better purchases and start from a more advantageous position? Yeah but let's not forget Kompany so injury prone, Aguero looked past it and and ill fit, Toure is finished, Otamendi and Sterling looked like total flops and Pep made a pigs ear of buying a keeper as well. KDB wasn't as good as he is now and only Silva was imo a seriously fortunate gift for the manager who still in his prime. He's done an excellent job of turning that all around. But that's besides the point, no one expected a title run we just expected you to create a team which looks set to win big trophies.. some cohesion, easily dispatching smaller sides, look like a side which with some minor tweaks look competitive in Europe. Referring to City is neither here nor there. Your own management just hasn't been up to the mark - own up to it.
He's a coward IMO and it kills me to say that.. from a guy who I always respected and I brought into the mantra that his press conferences are about protecting players.. but he constantly throws them under the bus even when it's clear as day he's cocked it up. Also don't like how he keeps shitting on the club to try and make it out like we're so grateful he's cleaning it all up. With the funds he's been given, that is the bare minimum we expect from a competent manager.
My worry is, we could lose players under his management that could actually be useful players under a new manager with a different approach. He's increasingly looking like he's a dog that's had his day and with the ever more defensive self pitying conferences like these where he genuinely seems to believe he's absolved of any blame, I can't see him turning a new leaf and changing some of his flaws .. being more proactive because he doesn't acknowledge that he is making bad decisions. His answer seems to be just let me get in new players and my tactics will be the same and it will lead to titles.
See the same culprits with their strange fawning over any of Joses press conferences even when he's had a total mare or is lying through his teeth to deflect blame from his own shortcomings.
He looked like he'd cracked IMO.. cool calm and collected he was not, and whilst passion is good.. it's only good if you're talking about your team passionately and saying look I fecked up but I believe in this team etc instead it looked like a man desperate to defend his performances with what he now deems an unworthy squad which he's done miracles with. It's complete and utter horseshit.
Have City benefitted from better purchases and start from a more advantageous position? Yeah but let's not forget Kompany so injury prone, Aguero looked past it and and ill fit, Toure is finished, Otamendi and Sterling looked like total flops and Pep made a pigs ear of buying a keeper as well. KDB wasn't as good as he is now and only Silva was imo a seriously fortunate gift for the manager who still in his prime. He's done an excellent job of turning that all around. But that's besides the point, no one expected a title run we just expected you to create a team which looks set to win big trophies.. some cohesion, easily dispatching smaller sides, look like a side which with some minor tweaks look competitive in Europe. Referring to City is neither here nor there. Your own management just hasn't been up to the mark - own up to it.
He's a coward IMO and it kills me to say that.. from a guy who I always respected and I brought into the mantra that his press conferences are about protecting players.. but he constantly throws them under the bus even when it's clear as day he's cocked it up. Also don't like how he keeps shitting on the club to try and make it out like we're so grateful he's cleaning it all up. With the funds he's been given, that is the bare minimum we expect from a competent manager.
My worry is, we could lose players under his management that could actually be useful players under a new manager with a different approach. He's increasingly looking like he's a dog that's had his day and with the ever more defensive self pitying conferences like these where he genuinely seems to believe he's absolved of any blame, I can't see him turning a new leaf and changing some of his flaws .. being more proactive because he doesn't acknowledge that he is making bad decisions. His answer seems to be just let me get in new players and my tactics will be the same and it will lead to titles.
Finally it seems United fans are waking up to the reality of Mourinho. Just a year ago it most of them seemed to be living in a delusion of thinking he will “adapt” to what they call “Man United way” and “patiently develop” likes of Rashford and Shaw and of course Pogba and bring them back to glory. Instead he is now excusing his own failure by repeatedly pointing out that United are not a big club in Europe - I’m sure the fans and management are loving this!
Redcafe:
can anyone explain why Mourinho deserves to remain united manager?
I’m sick to death of him, it’s got to the point where I don’t even bother wasting my time watching our matches anymore, as a fan that should never happen but mourinho and his “style” literally make me fall asleep or just piss me off so much I can’t watch. It happened under Moyes and Lvg too so it’s the end of him for me.
Redcafe:
He is shit, we are shit , this thread is shit.
Redcafe:
Why couldn't he just admit that he fecked up with his tactics and team selection, acknowledge that and move on?
Why does he have to bring up how shit we were and make all these excuses? He really thinks he's better than the club doesn't he?
He had four transfer windows, that's four full windows to assess the squad and strengthen any areas he desired with pretty much a blank check. If after that he still complains about the quality of the squad he can truly feck off. No one to blame but himself. Four transfer windows and our plan A in our biggest game is to play long balls to Fellaini. This is a fecking travesty.
I can't believe there are actually fans who buy into this shit of how lucky we are to have him, such a small club that we are. Absolute madness. He'd be kicked out of any other big club for that.
And please stop with that whole "shielding his players" myth. He's shielding no one but himself.
can anyone explain why Mourinho deserves to remain united manager?
I’m sick to death of him, it’s got to the point where I don’t even bother wasting my time watching our matches anymore, as a fan that should never happen but mourinho and his “style” literally make me fall asleep or just piss me off so much I can’t watch. It happened under Moyes and Lvg too so it’s the end of him for me.
Redcafe:
He is shit, we are shit , this thread is shit.
Redcafe:
Why couldn't he just admit that he fecked up with his tactics and team selection, acknowledge that and move on?
Why does he have to bring up how shit we were and make all these excuses? He really thinks he's better than the club doesn't he?
He had four transfer windows, that's four full windows to assess the squad and strengthen any areas he desired with pretty much a blank check. If after that he still complains about the quality of the squad he can truly feck off. No one to blame but himself. Four transfer windows and our plan A in our biggest game is to play long balls to Fellaini. This is a fecking travesty.
I can't believe there are actually fans who buy into this shit of how lucky we are to have him, such a small club that we are. Absolute madness. He'd be kicked out of any other big club for that.
And please stop with that whole "shielding his players" myth. He's shielding no one but himself.
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They're a bit scared of him. In the media at least. He should be universally ridiculed by now and yet there's still a shiver of fear about the coverage. As always when embarrassed, he reverts to that non-footballing non-entity with a clipboard and some languages, desperately trying to offend before anyone realises. Amazing after all he's won, but he still does. He's deeply insecure.
Just open the closet and ask mate...!
Everything he said of that club in the press conference is true of that club. They maybe rich and they may have those players - but every professional will realize that they don't play as a unit of any kind. He keeps talking about heritage - well he is right in terms of Europe - I mean look at Fergie - in like 20+ or whatever years of ruling that club he only made it to the CL final like three times despite those titles and won just two CL titles. It took him forever to actually get past the fucking group stages - but take us for instance - in our first year in that competition with GH we made it to the Quarters. A stadium with 70K people at Old Toilet but sounds like a fucking funeral.
We can ridicule him all we want - but he speaks the truth about that club, and who are we to laugh at his statements anyway ? - they still sit above us in the table 5 points clear and he has managed that with his 'anti-football' tactics so it's working. Any other year - you guys do realize he would be winning that title don't you ?
It should always start with Defensive discipline and solidity - and that is what he is building - for all the negative shite with both GH, and Raffa - the one thing I did know was that it would be very very difficult for anyone to score against us in those days. When the attack is not so fluid like he has then you bloody make sure that the defence is correctly fixed and well drilled for a title challenge. Also someone replied to my original comments on him saying he has spent gazillions at the clubs - well I don't consider Inter Milan to a be a financial powerhouse of a club these days - in fact he won the title, and CL with an aging squad that season.
We can ridicule him all we want - but he speaks the truth about that club, and who are we to laugh at his statements anyway ? - they still sit above us in the table 5 points clear and he has managed that with his 'anti-football' tactics so it's working. Any other year - you guys do realize he would be winning that title don't you ?
It should always start with Defensive discipline and solidity - and that is what he is building - for all the negative shite with both GH, and Raffa - the one thing I did know was that it would be very very difficult for anyone to score against us in those days. When the attack is not so fluid like he has then you bloody make sure that the defence is correctly fixed and well drilled for a title challenge. Also someone replied to my original comments on him saying he has spent gazillions at the clubs - well I don't consider Inter Milan to a be a financial powerhouse of a club these days - in fact he won the title, and CL with an aging squad that season.
They have a freak of nature in goal who has probably given them 12 points. I'm loving the implosion at Man Utd. It help us, all this infighting.
FUCK MOUREEN AND FUCK UNITED!
It's a two sided coin really. I mean, this cunt WILL win them trophies, however shite it is on the eyes, so yeah we can all point and laugh etc, but they'll either win stuff with this twat and moan about the style, or he'll walk eventually and they will bring in another prick who will actually do some damage with all those brilliant attacking players who currently all play as defensive midfielders.
Not one of the cunts reminded him that when he and Pep took over their respective clubs they were separated by goal difference only and have both been given 4 transfer windows and half a billion quid. It would seem a fairly simple thing to point out.
Is that a compliment or ?
At his shittest, Rooney still looked committed. He ran, he chased people down. He wasn't worth his bewildering wage, but he at least showed signs of wanting to earn it. Sanchez looks a bit lost.
Is that to sit with those wankers? Because I'm tempted to come over (never been at a CL game)
Heard a snippet of it on the radio. He's fucking mental. He's singled out a young player in McTominay, in a game they won 2-0 (!), and slaughtered him. He's off his head.
Yeah that's in their ground. Think the tickets in their bit of their ground would be the most realistic chance given the amount of moaning over price and the lack of active fans they have.
I think spurs will win it.
Actually that isn't what he did at all - he was praising him, said although he made a lot of poor passes he was clearly a Man United player in mentality and attitude. He absolutely destroyed Shaw though. Shaw must be gone next Summer. he was taking huge bites out of United's 'experienced' players and questioning their desire, without actually naming them.
Is there any chance to get tickets at Anfield? Assuming I'm willing to even pay 150%?
God knows. Really can't see it. People will be paying touts fortunes and people who can get tickets will want to go. The only way I think would be hospitality, and I doubt that will be cheap.
Sadly he's not, it's all calculated. The story he wants to push, and is doing so via these press conferences and through Duncan Castles is that he inherited an utter pile of shite and that's why Man City are better. He keeps singling out Lukaku and Matic because he signed both of them, for Chelsea (I think?) as well as the mancs. As Woland mentioned above, it's utter bollocks, but the alternative would be to risk people seeing the real story which is, by and large, Mourinho's tactical blueprint just doesn't cut it anymore.
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