One of the reasons why we lost the title

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33758.msg875544#msg875544 date=1243346253]

well, I've always been an advocate of gerrard playing further up field (I think I was one of the first to suggest this) and I haven't ever really rated keane (hence my bet) I definately wanted rafa to go for a wide player but once keane was actually BOUGHT we should have done our best to get the best out of him (keane) otherwise what a monumental waste of money and time.

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!
[/quote]

absolutely I was. its such a gimme now but the majority of people on this board wanted him in the center of midfield partnering mash and before that alonso. I really should go back as far as this site allows and drag up some old posts.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33758.msg875565#msg875565 date=1243347472]

well, I've always been an advocate of gerrard playing further up field (I think I was one of the first to suggest this)

absolutely I was. its such a gimme now but the majority of people on this board wanted him in the center of midfield partnering mash and before that alonso. I really should go back as far as this site allows and drag up some old posts.
[/quote]

We'll wait.

 

[Roger REDerer]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=33758.msg875459#msg875459 date=1243342596]
I don't blame Keane, I blame the person that bought him.

We had the opportunity to add a top talent, we failed to do that. Ultimately it cost us.
[/quote]

That's another way of looking at it.

The season before, we were crying out for a reliable backup for Torres but instead Keane was brought in to partner Torres, and not serve as a backup.

When the inevitable happened (Torres injured), our goals dried drastically and our attacking fulcrum became blunt. Keane was then depended to replace Torres but he failed to live up to expectations. That's what made us suffer more than the Scum. While the scums had Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo and to some arguable extent, Berbatov to rotate and contribute the goals, we only had Stevie, Torres (our two-man team) to depend on. If one's out, we're royally screwed. Kuyt was this season's surprise but he was more a makeshift striker who deputized admirably but was nowhere near the quality of Torres and Stevie upfront.

And it isn't a coincidence that we P20 W14 D4 L4 F50 since Keane's departure. 50 goals in 20 games...that's an amazing stat.

Nevertheless, Keane didn't deliver and it cost us. He's a good lad and all that but the blame is apportioned not to Keane as a person, but rather to Keane as a player.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=33758.msg875592#msg875592 date=1243349869]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33758.msg875565#msg875565 date=1243347472]

well, I've always been an advocate of gerrard playing further up field (I think I was one of the first to suggest this)

absolutely I was. its such a gimme now but the majority of people on this board wanted him in the center of midfield partnering mash and before that alonso. I really should go back as far as this site allows and drag up some old posts.
[/quote]

We'll wait.
[/quote]

why bother I know the the truth that's good enough for me. marvelous, I take stick for suggesting it and when it actually happens I can't take credit for it. ha ha.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33758.msg875622#msg875622 date=1243351315]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=33758.msg875592#msg875592 date=1243349869]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33758.msg875565#msg875565 date=1243347472]

well, I've always been an advocate of gerrard playing further up field (I think I was one of the first to suggest this)

absolutely I was. its such a gimme now but the majority of people on this board wanted him in the center of midfield partnering mash and before that alonso. I really should go back as far as this site allows and drag up some old posts.
[/quote]

We'll wait.
[/quote]

why bother I know the the truth that's good enough for me. marvelous, I take stick for suggesting it and when it actually happens I can't take credit for it. ha ha.
[/quote]

I know how you feel Spidey. It's a tough old slog here on SCM. Maybe you should post on Est, far more e-loving over there.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=33758.msg875626#msg875626 date=1243351462]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33758.msg875622#msg875622 date=1243351315]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=33758.msg875592#msg875592 date=1243349869]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33758.msg875565#msg875565 date=1243347472]

well, I've always been an advocate of gerrard playing further up field (I think I was one of the first to suggest this)

absolutely I was. its such a gimme now but the majority of people on this board wanted him in the center of midfield partnering mash and before that alonso. I really should go back as far as this site allows and drag up some old posts.
[/quote]

We'll wait.
[/quote]

why bother I know the the truth that's good enough for me. marvelous, I take stick for suggesting it and when it actually happens I can't take credit for it. ha ha.
[/quote]

I know how you feel Spidey. It's a tough old slog here on SCM. Maybe you should post on Est, far more e-loving over there.
[/quote]

you get a reply about a year after a post. there are more forum members on blue kipper.

 

[LadyRed]

Really? I thought Est was busier than here.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=33758.msg875633#msg875633 date=1243351609]
Really? I thought Est was busier than here.
[/quote]

naw.

 

[singlerider]

Obviously the main reason was not having the Gerrard/Torres partnership all season long, otherwise we'd have kicked all them punkass muthafuckas to the kerb no doubt.

Beyond that basically we bottled it or something, if we'd played all season like we did at the end . . .

*sighs*

 

[rage]

[quote author=Anita link=topic=33758.msg875633#msg875633 date=1243351609]
Really? I thought Est was busier than here.
[/quote]

yep if all u want to see is post after post of how much you love rafa.

i love him
no i love him more
no you don't understand i love him so much i think we should rename the club rafa fc
yes and then we should rename our webpage est 200 and rafa

 

[keniget]

Hahaha

 

[KopKing]

Lack of experience cost us the title in my opinion. We crumbled under the pressure of leading the league and whilst we responded admirably, we learnt a painful lesson, one which I hope we take into next season.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=33758.msg875475#msg875475 date=1243343078]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33758.msg875468#msg875468 date=1243342880]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=33758.msg875464#msg875464 date=1243342803]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=33758.msg875459#msg875459 date=1243342596]
I don't blame Keane, I blame the person that bought him.

We had the opportunity to add a top talent, we failed to do that. Ultimately it cost us.
[/quote]

Pretty much, the whole thing was a cock up, the position, the price, fucking up of our best partnership.. etc.

It was a completely fruitless exercise and ultimately a rather costly, pointless Summer transfer window.
[/quote]

there are many that are being wise after the event, LOADS of people were calling for rafa to go 4-4-2.
[/quote]

I wasn't Neil.

I've never advocated puttting Gerrard back into centre midfield, nor limitting Torres' game by having a partner 'alongside' him. He thrives on space and having an intelligent player behind him.

The only feasable reason for buying Keane was as an either/or for Torres and Gerrard, that third option for when injury and fatigue came into play, which is why at £20m it was all bit fucking ridiculous. I swear Rafa didn't know how or where to play Keane. And as a manager who's preferred one upfront throughout his career, you have to question why he'd suddenly want to go against all that at the cost of one of the best partnerships in Europe. Though of course, for those who don't want to question Rafa over it all, there's always the fallback option - Blame Rick Parry.
[/quote]

I'll put my hand up and say I did advocate putting Gerrard into midfield - I thought he could be a great asset to us in either position and therefore introducing an additional match winner would be of benefit without compromising Stevie too much. I didn't want 4-4-2 but I wanted 4-2-3-1 with Keane in the Gerrard role - something we never really saw.

I'll go further and say that I would still do this. Keane didn't gel with Torres the way I hoped (though how much of that was his fault is hard to guage). However, if we signed a Rooney, Kaka or Ronaldinho from a couple of years ago then I'd still do it.

All that said I think the most effective option and safest option is to capitalise on our weakness at LM and get a class player.

While I don't hold the player fully accountable for it I think the farce that was the Keane episode is what cost us the title. All things being equal last summer if we had signed a match winner to add to the squad we had then many of us would have thought we could go pretty close. We didn't do it and, as hindsight shows, had we managed it we would almost certainly have lifted the title. Of course there are many other reasons but that was one we all identified last summer and the evidence of the last 10 months shows we were right.

 

[Judge Jules]

Got to disagree on dropping Stevie back into CM out of the role behind Nando, for more than one reason:

(a) It ain't broke - don't "fix" it;

(b) Rafa's system demands that the 2 in front of the back four be very compact and disciplined. It seems pretty clear that he doesn't see Stevie playing that way, and I for one think he's right not to.

 

[keniget]

I think there are more than a few games in which we could look to do this.

That's why I thought someone like Diego would give us so many options as we could field a very attacking line up with him and Gerrard without losing bodies in the middle.

 

[Judge Jules]

I wouldn't be averse to doing it now and again. "More than a few", though suggests quite a high proportion of games, and I'd have to disagree. One thing we definitely do not need is to get back to the extent and frequency of the changes which Rafa used to make to the line-up.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33758.msg876211#msg876211 date=1243413098]
I wouldn't be averse to doing it now and again. "More than a few", though suggests quite a high proportion of games, and I'd have to disagree. One thing we definitely do not need is to get back to the extent and frequency of the changes which Rafa used to make to the line-up.
[/quote]

You have a point there with regards to chopping and changing the system, but I don't think it would be that extreme:

------------- Torres
Riera ----- Gerrard ----- Kuyt
-------- Alonso -- Masher

------------- Torres
Riera ------ Diego ----- Kuyt
-------- Alonso -- Gerrard

Alonso often finds himself deep in the oppositions half and on the edge of the box. The only difference Gerrard would mean is that we'd have another player making third man runs from deep and trying to get in behind the defence at times. The basic shape of the team would still look the same though, no?

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33758.msg876209#msg876209 date=1243412955]
I think there are more than a few games in which we could look to do this.

That's why I thought someone like Diego would give us so many options as we could field a very attacking line up with him and Gerrard without losing bodies in the middle.
[/quote]

I thought he'd gone to Juve?

Or am I getting confused?

 

[Jürgen4PM]

He's signed for Juve for £21m

 

[keniget]

Yeah, I know he's gone now. I'm just sort of reflecting on that type of player.

We could perhaps do the same with someone like Sneijder. He might be ushered out along with the rest of the Dutch contingent at Real, but was actually quite brilliant for them at times.

 

[Buddha]

[quote author=rage link=topic=33758.msg875908#msg875908 date=1243368488]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=33758.msg875633#msg875633 date=1243351609]
Really? I thought Est was busier than here.
[/quote]

yep if all u want to see is post after post of how much you love rafa.

i love him
no i love him more
no you don't understand i love him so much i think we should rename the club rafa fc
yes and then we should rename our webpage est 200 and rafa

[/quote]

I can't understand why you don't post on there more Rage.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33758.msg876215#msg876215 date=1243413283]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33758.msg876211#msg876211 date=1243413098]
I wouldn't be averse to doing it now and again. "More than a few", though suggests quite a high proportion of games, and I'd have to disagree. One thing we definitely do not need is to get back to the extent and frequency of the changes which Rafa used to make to the line-up.
[/quote]

You have a point there with regards to chopping and changing the system, but I don't think it would be that extreme:

------------- Torres
Riera ----- Gerrard ----- Kuyt
-------- Alonso -- Masher

------------- Torres
Riera ------ Diego ----- Kuyt
-------- Alonso -- Gerrard

Alonso often finds himself deep in the oppositions half and on the edge of the box. The only difference Gerrard would mean is that we'd have another player making third man runs from deep and trying to get in behind the defence at times. The basic shape of the team would still look the same though, no?
[/quote]

I'm not sure Xabi finds himself on the edge of the opposition's box that often. I'd have expected someone with such a good shot on him to have scored more often if that had been the case.

If we play Gerrard and Mascher, that could work because Mascher is so damn good at DM. Alonso and Gerrard, though, had its problems when we used it as a combo before. Xabi's tackling is underrated, but even so he's nowhere near as good as Mascher at the defensive dirty work and Rafa felt - with some justification, I thought - that, with Stevie bombing forward leaving just Xabi in front of the back four, we didn't have enough cover back there when other teams came at us.

 

[Buddha]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33758.msg876221#msg876221 date=1243413601]
Yeah, I know he's gone now. I'm just sort of reflecting on that type of player.

We could perhaps do the same with someone like Sneijder. He might be ushered out along with the rest of the Dutch contingent at Real, but was actually quite brilliant for them at times.
[/quote]

Arshavin at 12m wouldn't have been a bad bet either. He could have covered both Riera's position and behind Torres to good effect.

Silva could do the same perhaps?

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33758.msg876230#msg876230 date=1243414275]
I'm not sure Xabi finds himself on the edge of the opposition's box that often. I'd have expected someone with such a good shot on him to have scored more often if that had been the case.

If we play Gerrard and Mascher, that could work because Mascher is so damn good at DM. Alonso and Gerrard, though, had its problems when we used it as a combo before. Xabi's tackling is underrated, but even so he's nowhere near as good as Mascher at the defensive dirty work and Rafa felt - with some justification, I thought - that, with Stevie bombing forward leaving just Xabi in front of the back four, we didn't have enough cover back there when other teams came at us.
[/quote]

Alonso is world class at hitting the ball as cleanly as you like only for it to be *just* wide or into the keepers hands.

As for the midfield partnership, I disagree. On paper, you're right - it should be Masher in there to hold the fort defensively and cover for Gerrards runs, however I recall from the times they played together that it didn't quite work out like that. Both ended up roaming as neither really hold their position and our midfield lacked shape, cohesion - things that Alonso gives us - and basically looked a bit of a mess.

 

[Judge Jules]

Fair point. However, it actually reinforces the view I expressed to begin with - that Stevie should not (at least not as a general rule) be moved from the position behind the striker, given that his pairing with either Mascher or Xabi in the deeper midfield two isn't as effective.